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**Diddy Kong [Old] General Match-Ups**

Vyse

Vyse

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Well, as long as it's that time of week again, I'm changing the week over again.

Tonight I'm going to get to work on a new character match up writeup as well, now that I've got my home connection back up again.

Anyway, this week shall be Olimar, seeing as Olimar's are discussing us at the moment (or were).

EDIT: Also, duly noted Mmac

EDIT2:

Week #3
Metaknight
:metaknight:
Match-Up Estimate - 4: 6
[This match-up is slightly in Metaknight’s Favour]

Metaknight's Advantages:

  • MK has several jumps, and can approach you in a variety of ways in order to get around your projectiles. This is one of his biggest advantages.
  • He has a disjointed hitbox, the sword. This alone gives him one of the best zoning/spacing tools in the game.
  • Metaknight is generally quicker with all of his attacks. Without bananas, you’ll be hard pressed to pressure him any where near as much as he is able to pressure you.
  • Superior Edge guarding ability. Be VERY careful if you’re going for an edge guard because MK is very apt at turning the tables quickly. Diddy’s recovery just begs a good gimp from MK.

Diddy's Advantages:

  • Diddy has bananas. This is ALWAYS an advantage, but it needs to be reiterated here because Diddy’s bananas really are the key to winning this match up.
  • Many of Diddy’s advantages exist in the fact that aside from dodging around, Metaknight has few options against the bananas.
  • Diddy has a number of moves which will out-prioritize the Tornado. These include Bananas, Monkey Flip and even the F-tilt.
  • Diddy isn’t banned in Italy


Specific Match-Up Points:

  • Diddy’s will come unstuck in this match up if they let the momentum of the match fall into the hands of Metaknight.
  • Don’t take to the skies against MK, unless you’re in the middle of a combo or otherwise aren’t blindly launching into an attack. MK’s aerial superiority will beat and punish you if you aren’t careful.
  • Recovering is a dangerous affair. Try to sweet spot the ledge with the Up B. You’re either going to have to recover quickly so that MK doesn’t have time to edge guard, or stall for a recovery that will hit through ledge hoggers or go over the edge onto the stage.


Strategic Notes:

  • Basically, don’t let MK pressure you. Good MK’s will do all they can to stop you from using your bananas at all. So you’re going to have to wait for the right time to pull them. After a throw, after a forward tilt, whatever you can do to create the breathing space, that 3 second or so gap when you can do a retreating banana pull and grab it.
  • Once you have even just one banana out, you have to keep a cool head. Don’t just throw that banana and hope for the best. Remember, Brawl is a game of prediction and reaction. Once you’ve gotten a hit in, that’s when your standard Diddy lightning pressure play should kick in. MK is god tier, but every character suffers from the same weakness to bananas.
  • Recovering above the stage is VERY dangerous. Predict shuttle loop gimps and Air dodge!
Click to expand...
This writeup is based on pretty old discussion, so feel free to rip it apart and tell me what I need to add/change. We need moar facts for it, seeing as it's a very important matchup to know.
 
pastaboy

pastaboy

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i dont no much about this match but wuti do no is try to get that bananalock all the time. olimar is small and doesnt move far when hes hit by a banana, this means u can pummel him with more bananas and rack up more damage b4 he gets to the edge or b4 u give him a good fsmash
 
Count

Count

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Are seriously johning in diddy's matchup thread? You main meta knight, he has no bad matchups. Diddy is just lucky because none of his matchups are terrible, he still has plenty of poor matchups.
 
Nitrix

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Olimar is tricky for a Diddy, although a good Diddy can still capitalize on his poor recovery. The trick that Olimar has up his sleeve is his pikmin throw. Olimar is very defensive, and has a talent for making people approach. Diddy cannot sit back, camp with Peanuts and wait for Olimar to take some nanners to the face. Instead, Diddy must be proactive and aggro Olimar. In this matchup, timing and patience are crucial. Olimar's grab range is very big and his smashes are quick and painful. If Diddy makes a fooling approach he will be punished. However, if Diddy is patient he can get Olimar off the edge and steal a stock, either by meteor-smashing or edgeguarding. Olimar doesn't have many options when off the stage and Diddy can take advantage of this to sway the match in his favour.

Overall I'd say this match is 50-50, or slightly in Diddy's favour.

Does diddy have anything worse than 40:60? I need to kick diddy's ***.
Click to expand...

The best way to beat a Diddy is to play as him for a while. Once you can control bananas, you can pick a different char and turn Diddy's strength against him. If you don't know how to control bananas then you are at a major disadvantage and it doesn't matter who you play.
 
ADHD

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I HAS TEH MOAST EXPEERIENZ AGANST OLiMAR!!11

jk, I know alot about it and I've fought blackwaltz (he's one of the best players from NJ and uses olimar) alot now. The thing is, the whole match is based around getting around his grab range and striving for that trip. You cannot get grabbed, just know that... If there is a banana next to olimar, DO NOT DASH ATTACK IT, pull out another. About the camping, a neutral air is very good for getting off pikmin or a utilt. Don't be concerned about battlefield, if you know what you're doing all neutral stages are fine against olimar, just ban norfair. If he trips, naner lock him into a throw offstage and pray that you get a spike or lucky edgehog. Don't fall for the grab mindgames, that range is wicked. You're going to have to abuse your bananas, theres just no other way to win this matchup if you don't. Always have a banana out, and always do your best to grab him alot out of a trip or if he's close up shielding. You have to play incredibly smart to win, you'll get destroyed by a really good olimar player if you just go at it like any other matchup. Glide tossing backwards and throwing it forwards is always a good option so use that alot more.
 
Luigi player

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Maybe you could try to take away Olimars second jump with bananas and peanuts, and then grab the edge.

I always had trouble against him... but that was when I knew like nothing about him (and I didn't know how which attack looked so I had no idea how to respond >_>). I guess that's not the problem for anyone else, but it really helps to just play every character to know what they can do and such, and then think about what you would do if you would be Olimar, and try to trick him or something.

Well now I don't really have any trouble against him, but that's probably because I didn't face really good ones =/


@ ChromePirate... why is Diddy vs Olimar on Norfair so bad for Diddy? Does he camp on the bottom platform? You could try to jump over him and drop bananas down or just shoot peanuts from the top platforms.
If he is on a higher platform you could try attacking him from below or shoot peanuts.

I don't get how it is that bad for Diddy... but if you'd tell me what's so bad I might just switch to Luigi if one counterpicks Norfair... >_>
 
pastaboy

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norfair, is a bad pick i beleive becausee of the multiple platforms to latch on to so less chance for lame suicide, and his up b can hit u easily if ur above him on one of the platforms. although i havnt had the chance to face an olimar on norfair, chrome will prolly agree with me on going mk for that perticular level ^_^ but Usually an olimar will pick pirate ship because of the water(might become banned in due time)
 
ADHD

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He can camp you like crazy and you can't do anything about it, your nanerz are useless if he's hopping around camping everywhere. You also can't get lucky recovery gimps on this stage against olimar. I forgot to add something against olimar, when edgeguarding olimar and he's coming back on the stage or trying to then turn around and pull out nanerz so they fall on his head and you can fair or spike him or something. Diddy has no solid way to approach olimar and in reality it is impossible, you have to count on the olimar player to make a mistake. He can punish every single naner less approach with a grab. I have heard about sheik's AAA combo cutting through olimar's grab, does anyone know if diddy's does too?
 
Vyse

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Meta-Rewrite:


Week #3
Meta Knight
:metaknight:
Match-Up Estimate: 4 : 6
[This match-up is slightly in Meta Knight's favor]
~ Props to Le_THieN for doing a massive re-write

Meta Knight's Advantages:
  • superiority in almost every characteristic facet imaginable:
    • speed
    • range
    • priority
    • aerial mobility
  • very small hurt-boxes
  • disjointed hit-boxes on virtually all attacks
  • boasts the longest, safest, and most versatile recovery in the game
Diddy's Advantages:
  • bananas out-prioritize every single move in Meta Knight's arsenal
  • can arguably kill with successfully-landed KO moves at earlier percentages
Specific Match-Up Points:
  • Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop is, best to my knowledge, still in the running to be named the absolute best special move in the game. It is a special attack that combines blistering speed, high priority, and an absurd amount of knock-back at low percentages that not only makes it the perfect anti-air and anti-edge-guarding tool, but also doubles as an ideal off-stage gimping resource.
    • On top of that, it has at least one frame of super armor during its nearly nonexistent start-up, and automatically places Meta Knight into a gliding state - setting him up for a glide attack equal in priority and power.
      • If the glide attack is executed near the ground, it can be lag-canceled into any number of Meta Knight's other, near-lagless ground attacks. This makes this possible three-move chain virtually unpunishable.
  • Meta Knight's fast ground speed, high-priority special moves and plethora of ranged, disjointed attacks all grant him the ability to quite literally crush the spacing of every single character in the game.
    • Additionally, Meta Knight has absolute aerial superiority in every way. Aside from a ground game that shuts down most other characters' abilities to safely approach horizontally, Meta Knight is even able to administer a ridiculous degree of pressure by vertically spacing with his fast, ranged and lagless U-air and D-air.
  • All four of MK's special moves grant him some degree of significant mobility; this effectively grants him four different recovery options.
  • Most Meta Knight mains will stay in a constant state of flight and zone from the air in order to decrease the effectiveness of Diddy's banana approaches.
  • Diddy is very, very susceptible to Meta Knight's off-stage gimping game due to the vulnerable nature of both the charged and blasted states of the Rocket Barrel Blast. If Meta Knight intercepts Diddy at any point of the Rocket Barrel Blast, Diddy is almost as good as dead.
Strategic Notes:
  • As previously mentioned, there is one trump card that Diddy has over Meta Knight (as well as the remaining entirety of the rest of the Brawl cast) that he will never be able to beat if they are effectively deployed: bananas. Combined with unique ability to readjust spacing with glide-tossing, you will always be able to quickly capitalize on a Meta Knight who enters a tripping state or a short banana hit-stun state in the air. The smart, measured application of bananas in this match-up will ultimately determine which direction the favor will swing in; it's therefore imperative that Diddy has bananas out at all times.
    • The Mach Tornado is one specific move that MK mains are fond of whose respective cool-down frames can be taken advantage of with glide-tossing. Diddy has surprisingly diligent shield endurance against the Mach Tornado, and he can immediately glide-toss out of a shield in order to punish the Mach Tornado's period of cool-down.
    • Similarly, D-smash is easily one of MK's most used and abused attacks due to its blinding attack speed and strength, as well as nearly nonexistent execution lag. If I recall correctly, the second hit of the attack actually has more knock-back, so expect to see a D-smash if you anywhere in range, especially from behind. Use prudent positioning in order to get behind him and bait the move - even with slight shield-stun, there is still just enough time for Diddy to get in a glide-toss before Meta Knight can spot-dodge or get his own shield up. Even if the timing is whiffed and MK manages to block the banana, make sure that you always glide toss forward in order to close distance and quickly follow up with a grab.
  • If Meta Knight takes to the skies, do not even attempt to go head-to-head with any of his disjointed aerial attacks (unless you have a banana in your hand or you are punishing a whiffed attack). Hit, re-space and run by harassing Meta Knight while he is in the air with a salvo of peanuts varying in height and jumping banana throws in order to bring him back to the ground.
  • Surprisingly, Diddy has a diverse array of options in order to interrupt and override the Mach Tornado:
    • Banana Peels
    • Diddy Hump
    • F-tilt
    • fast-falled N-air (above the whirlwind)
    • Rocket Barrel Blast (you must allow yourself to be hit during the charged state)

    The Diddy Hump and F-tilt in particular require a high degree of spacing awareness and directional anticipation of which way Meta Knight will go once he has activated the Mach Tornado.
  • For as excellent as Meta Knight's overall recovery might be, Diddy has the distinct advantage of having the superior recovery that combines the longest and furthest horizontal and vertical trajectory – with, of course, proper aerial spacing and enough of a barrel charge. Meta Knight mains who are aggressively edge-guarding you will almost never chase you any further off-stage if you actually jump or Monkey Flip backwards in order to adjust spacing for your Rocket Barrel Blast. By that point, you will already be charging your barrels to maximum charge, and the slow descent of your charged state will position you off-stage in such a way that you are actually too low and too far away for Meta Knight to gimp you and recover himself. It takes some practice and precise directional influence, but it is logically one of the safest ways to recover without putting yourself in immediate danger of being directly gimped.
    • If possible, it is worth the effort for you to bait Meta Knight some distance off-stage before you re-space by jumping backwards. Opponents will then be faced with the dilemma of pushing onward with the chase (in which case they will also face the higher probability of death), or simply turning around and flying back on-stage. If they choose the latter, you occasionally score free damage by to rocket-barreling back onto the stage, but not before you blow through an actually helpless Meta Knight.
  • The Drill Rush is easily escapable. You can minimize the damage it inflicts by smash-DIing through it.
Click to expand...
 
Mmac

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It would be nice if they deleted all of his post's though....

Anyways new chart for you guys to use ;) :yoshi:



Just add in the Title and Numbers yourself. Simple!
 
Luigi player

Luigi player

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Ah thanks ChromePirate, I think this helped me in 2vs2 against an Olimar yesterday ^^ they counterpicked Norfair and I chose Luigi xP

It's good to be prepared for everything...
 
DUB

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ChromePirate said:
I HAS TEH MOAST EXPEERIENZ AGANST OLiMAR!!11

jk, I know alot about it and I've fought blackwaltz (he's one of the best players from NJ and uses olimar) alot now. The thing is, the whole match is based around getting around his grab range and striving for that trip. You cannot get grabbed, just know that... If there is a banana next to olimar, DO NOT DASH ATTACK IT, pull out another. About the camping, a neutral air is very good for getting off pikmin or a utilt. Don't be concerned about battlefield, if you know what you're doing all neutral stages are fine against olimar, just ban norfair. If he trips, naner lock him into a throw offstage and pray that you get a spike or lucky edgehog. Don't fall for the grab mindgames, that range is wicked. You're going to have to abuse your bananas, theres just no other way to win this matchup if you don't. Always have a banana out, and always do your best to grab him alot out of a trip or if he's close up shielding. You have to play incredibly smart to win, you'll get destroyed by a really good olimar player if you just go at it like any other matchup. Glide tossing backwards and throwing it forwards is always a good option so use that alot more.
Click to expand...
I feel like this pretty much summed the matchup up.

Next weeks?
 
Vyse

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Sorry guys, you'll have to bear with me for a few days. I'm in the middle of moving into a new house at the moment.

I should be up and running again within the next two days.

In the mean time, you guys can decide who to discuss next >.<
 
Snakeee

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That chart Mmac made had Luigi in green which I thought meant as an advantage, unless he made it green because... well its Luigi
 
Mmac

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I'm guessing no support for the matchup chart... and it caused trouble too.

It wasn't suppose to be this way ;__ ;
 
ADHD

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you just have to side b monkey kick (the only time you would bother to cancel them) through all the spamming bs. in my opinion, TL is 45-55 against diddy if the diddy knows what he's doing, of course people will say thats wrong. That's basically it pasta, just side b flip kick cancel through the spam...

Luigi isn't that hard, just "spam" bananas, he slides way too far to do anything about it lol, just don't let him get you in the air and you should be fine. He also can gimp you decently, so stay onstage, and spam bananas.
 
NinjaLink

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i added a vs wolf video is my thread if anyone wanted to learn the matchup. I may upload one against falco....if i care to.
 
Luigi player

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I agree with 45-55 for Toon Link. He has a bit of an advantage, but it's nothing big.

And I'll take a look at your Wolf video NinjaLink ^^ I think Wolf has an advantage over Diddy... his reflector is really annoying, and he can gimp Diddy with it really easily...
 
Luigi player

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NinjaLink said:
its not hard when u find the weakness in his reflector
Click to expand...
What weakness? =/ The afterlag?
I wanted to come back to the stage from below once, and upB'd, but his reflektor could just come through my upB with it's stupid invincibility frames and I was hit too far away to make it back. =/
 
NinjaLink

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theres a hole at the top of the reflector
u can throw a banana through it. Also when u want wolf to trip dont hit his body. Aim for his feet. U can make him trip while he has the reflector up. not easy but possible.
 
Luigi player

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NinjaLink said:
theres a hole at the top of the reflector
u can throw a banana through it. Also when u want wolf to trip dont hit his body. Aim for his feet. U can make him trip while he has the reflector up. not easy but possible.
Click to expand...
Oh, that's good to know, thanks for the info! ^^
 
Le_THieN

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NinjaLink said:
theres a hole at the top of the reflector
u can throw a banana through it. Also when u want wolf to trip dont hit his body. Aim for his feet. U can make him trip while he has the reflector up. not easy but possible.
Click to expand...
Is that what it is? - I actually just starting RARing short-hops to Z-dropped bananas over Wolf's reflector to do this, and I thought it was just because my crew-mate was just prematurely dropping his reflector. I did notice that bananas do stab through reflectors from underneath Wolf and even Fox though (it happens more often with Wolf because he is usually trying to shine through my aerial follow-ups or reflect my jump-tossed bananas).
 
ADHD

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Toon link is easy, side b flip kick cancel through the spam, then do the usual. You just have to be very cautious about when he uses bombs though, he's very annoying if you think you can just "autopilot" Also edgeguard him by pulling out nanerz when you're facing the opposite direction of the ledge since his up b might go into them. No, I think it's 55-45 diddy since he ***** toon link on the ground, it's just a matter of getting through the spam since thats all toon link can do to avoid the bananas.
 
DUB

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I saw on the TL boards where the matchup is 60-40 in TL's favor. The idea over there was to just spam the crap out of Diddy and use his bananas against him blah blah blah.

I've been playing my crewmates TL lately. A few things I've learned: He isn't that easy to gimp. I have to approach with aerial bananas and Monkey Kicks. His falling Up-Airs are brutal.
 
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