The BBR: A failed experiment (or: why you should not join the BBR)

Matador · Mar 11, 2011

I understand where you all are coming from on te subject of why BBR cannot be publically viewable...but here's the bottom line...

There are people in the community that pretty much ruin any chance of mature debate and conversation. At the same time, there's people who would benefit GREATLY from simply being able to view some of the reasoning that you guys have come up with to make your decisions.

Surely there's SOME way that both sides can be appeased...I know that I'm personally more open to decisions made for me if there's a "Why" behind them.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 11, 2011

I kinda would feel better if they were the heads of the community, like a leadership sort of role. That I will be honest about.

But as it stands I can see what they are saying with not being the heads but rather a social group in which only people who show that understand or want to help the community are admitted.

They have established they have influence, but not true power.

So if Alex wants to ignore it and host an international of sort boycotting the BBR-RC, it's stagelist and the influence of the BBR, by all means he can. Even if the staff helped the BBR-RC with the sticky and other rules, people can still say no.

Matador said:
I understand where you all are coming from on te subject of why BBR cannot be publically viewable...but here's the bottom line...

There are people in the community that pretty much ruin any chance of mature debate and conversation. At the same time, there's people who would benefit GREATLY from simply being able to view some of the reasoning that you guys have come up with to make your decisions.

Surely there's SOME way that both sides can be appeased...I know that I'm personally more open to decisions made for me if there's a "Why" behind them.

The issue is for the people expressing their opinions, but the other one which you pointed out is the people who can't do it in a mature manner publicly.

It's a headache for the staff, I looked back at old MK debates, infractions galore.

It is true that people could post the reasoning while not dropping names, which seems fine to me.

Hive · Mar 11, 2011

I don't know what the bbr is or isn't supposed to be.

But the brawl community really needs organization, and some sort of structure.
-Coherent universal rulesets for comparisons between tournaments and players
and that will serve as an official source for the community
-Some sort of national tournament structure and possibly *hopefully* objective national rankings so players can judge how they are doing and improving
-Ongoing discussions of topics and issues that effect the community when information becomes available that could change previous decisions. Yea so the community discussion on mk was very bickery after the first vote and that needed to be toned down. But that doesn't mean you can ignore it for two years or whatever pretending it doesn't exist and it doesn't have a large impact on the community, especially as more and more information that could be relevant to the decision is brought in (no matter which way you end up deciding).
-More structure on payouts (possibly) and advertising for tournaments
-More cooperation with international scenes.
-Looking at ways to make the game more rewarding/competitive

Maybe this wasn't the bbr's job, and i'm not pointing fingers (and really I don't care). I don't know who's responsibility it is or was, but someone needs to take charge and provide more structured help to the community for your community's sake.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Mar 14, 2011

Excellence said:
I found this to be one of the most important things in BPC's post:

If the BBR was sponsoring major nationals left and right at all, if it was giving incentive to use its rulesets, if it was uncovering game-breaking ATs, if it was doing anything that makes the organization worth being in, then I would apply.

Click to expand...

It is.

Seriously, why isn't the BBR doing this? Why didn't, after the release of the BBR ruleset, the BBR start hosting nationals with that stagelist? Why didn't MLG, even after they convened with the BBR (and, AFAIK, that was the only major smash organ they communicated with), use the BBR ruleset?

I'm going to go ahead and +1 hive's post, and add it to the OP, because it is good.

Look, I see all of you BBR heads in here saying "it's a social group it's a social group we're no government". Well you know what? Someone is advertising you guys wrong, because for some reason, a damn large part of the smash community sees you, or at least saw you as such. And you know what? We need a government. We need a governing body of people who are governing not because they are good at smash (ADHD) or influential (Inui), but because they are smart (Raziek), because they know what they are talking about (AmazingAmpharos), and because they are looking out for smash's best interests (ESAM, etc.). The smash scene simply needs to have something like that, and it has to have more to offer than the BBRRC gave us as incentive ("I can't believe it's not nothing!").

Orion* · Mar 14, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
the noobs tend to learn very quickly to shut up and listen when the pros are talking

Apparently you never got the memo

Budget Player Cadet_ · Mar 14, 2011

Orion* said:
Apparently you never got the memo

***** have you seen me post outside my area of expertise recently?

Orion* · Mar 14, 2011

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
***** have you seen me post outside my area of expertise recently?

Yes... In the BBR application thread

Budget Player Cadet_ · Mar 14, 2011

Top tier post, would read again.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 14, 2011

BPC, the BBR only had...maybe 2 or 3 TOs, and there was a lot of controversial stages. I, for one, didn't advocate DP, Pipes, or Luigi's Mansion. Why would I run them in my tournament?

Also, MLG didn't listen to us, we couldn't give them a stage-list, they made it out by themselves.

~ Gheb ~ · Mar 14, 2011

I don't see where the idea comes from that the brawl community absolutely needs any kind of self-proclaimed elite to give us "structure", "organization" or - even worse - "leadership". We ourselves are the community and if you actually play this game and go to tournaments you will realize soon enough that the BBR fulfills no practical purpose and therefore is superfluous. They don't do or give us anything that regular tournament attendant #309845 couldn't possibly come up with himself. If you find a BBR member [or former BBR member] doing something useful like Seibrik's MetaMindgames or TKD's AiB blog then it's always on their own agenda. Meanwhile the BBR comes with a match-up chart that shows a decent, well-intentioned effort but also does do nothing to actually support this community in any way. It doesn't improve our game play, our tournament experiences or even our theoretical knowledge about the game.

I'm actually surprised to see people still looking for a leading role for this community as if it was needed. And if it actually was needed, when did the BBR actually fulfill that role? Sounds like a naive delusion to me. I can't remember one single instance where I thought "oh I'm glad the BBR gave us this information, that's something I can directly make use of on occasion X" so assigning them a leadership role seems to be based on wishful thinking more than on reality.

Browny · Mar 14, 2011

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 14, 2011

Thank you Gheb.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 15, 2011

I feel like the MU chart is good reference for people to look up who does good against who a lot more conveniently.

Now info about how to play a MU, that would require more outside help. BBR could organize that but it defiantly would require outside help from people more well versed in playing it in some cases.

Dre89 · Mar 16, 2011

I find it interesting that Shaya claims it's just a social group with no authority. Yet they produce the supposedly "official" tier list for the game, and any list made by another party would get shot down.

That sounds pretty authoratative to me.

WindMajor · Mar 16, 2011

We produce things with a BBR seal on them. For example, the Official Brawl Back Room Matchup Chart 1.0, or the Official BBR Ruleset 3.1. They are only official as a product to our name, not as an official truth to our metagame (didn't know how to word that).

For example. We have our Official Tier List. Even though it's an OFFICIAL tier list, it's merely a project based on the opinions of top players/posters/TOs/etc. after countless discussion, and it's only official to certify that it's from the BBR. No one has to follow or listen to the end product, but it's there anyways to serve as an influence to your decision and to the metagame.

"What's that? Pokemon Trainer is not in low tier? Well I, Mr. Hotshot Tournament Host, will run a low tiers tournament and since I think PT is low tier, he'll be playable in the tournament regardless of what the BBR recommended. BBR WHATCHU GON DO NAO?!"

We ain't cops, we ain't doing ****.

As to why other lists would get shot down, it's not the BBR's fault. Others will shoot it down maybe because it came from JoeRandom or SusanScrub or something like that, instead of the best that our Smash scene has to offer. Our list is still just a suggestion, just cause others get their's shot down doesn't change anything.

swordgard · Mar 16, 2011

Twinkie said:
"What's that? Pokemon Trainer is not in low tier? Well I, Mr. Hotshot Tournament Host, will run a low tiers tournament and since I think PT is low tier, he'll be playable in the tournament regardless of what the BBR recommended. BBR WHATCHU GON DO NAO?!"

Pretty sure we hired that hitman specifically for these types of situations.

As twinkie point out, we ain't cop, though we definitely are mafia.

Spelt · Mar 17, 2011

Twinkie said:
We produce things with a BBR seal on them. For example, the Official Brawl Back Room Matchup Chart 1.0, or the Official BBR Ruleset 3.1. They are only official as a product to our name, not as an official truth to our metagame (didn't know how to word that).

"the metagame" would've been better.

Sosuke · Mar 17, 2011

swordgard said:
As twinkie point out, we ain't cop, though we definitely are mafia.

vote: BBR

ShadowLink84 · Mar 18, 2011

Sosuke said:
vote: BBR

HOS: Sosuke

Raziek · Mar 18, 2011

Write: Sosuke

Shoutouts to Death Note Mafia! :D

Life · Mar 18, 2011

Vote: Shadowlink84
Vote: Raziek
(yay doublevoter)
BBR literally claims scum and you target the guy that votes for them? Srsly? BBR-SL84-Raz scum team, calling it now.

Budget Player Cadet_ · Mar 19, 2011

Guys, stop spamming. This is not helping.

ElDominio · Mar 22, 2011

InferiorityComplex said:
I propose Option 3. The BBR can be a great thing again. Here's what I recommend doing to revive it again.

2
Elections

If a significant chunk of the BBR is directly elected by poll, then the community as a whole has barely any right to complain as it's effectively the best of them making the decisions. Therefore, I suggest at least one-half (preferably more) of all BBR members must get there by a public election, held every six months to one year. It should still be possible to get there the traditional way, if only because popular opinion isn't perfect and certainly unpopular people with good ideas exist (you all know who I mean), but too much popular opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>> no popular opinion. And if you are selected for BBR membership, you should still be subject to a referendum of some sort.

tl;dr Republics work because the public knows what the officials are doing and can throw them out. Therefore, since the public has control over the officials, the public also respects the decisions of said officials. The BBR doesn't work because we know nothing about it (other than its membership, who are selected by other BBR members, only prolonging the problem), we can do nothing about it, and therefore we ignore it.

================================

The question I must ask, however, is "How do we get there from here?" And this is the incomplete part of the plan--I have no clue how to implement this. I'm just one user in a sea of ~~trolls~~ elite Smashers.

================================

On the BRC: Same exact problems as the BBR except instead of a fewscore people making a logically-backed ruleset that's flexible for all stage opinions and not even trying to enforce it, BRC is less than a dozen people who make a ruleset that's arbitrary (as far as we know, anyway), practically set in stone (look at the people in it and tell me anything is going to change in that ruleset--I'd be excited if they just added Japes), blatantly disregard a significant portion of the community (open-list advocates), and then tries to enforce it and fails spectacularly (Apex).

================================

I also have an idea for an enforcement mechanism that'll be far more effective than the one the BRC uses, but I'd like to see reforms first before I introduce it. (Hint: it's less "enforcement" against deviating tournaments and more "incentive" to follow the rules outlined.)

And for the record, I've been working on this post since the thread opened--meaning all, like, ten posts above me are ninjas (cough, Mr.-0). Grats.

I say, the election should be %60 BBR, %40 public

Keep the threshold at say, %65. That way all of the BBR has to approve + 5% or peoplfe, or any variation thereof. I'd think it's fairer.

Life · Mar 22, 2011

at 50-50, it's take 15% of the popular-vote people. That's still not very much. 5% is virtually nothing, however. Of course, consider that the BBR doesn't usually agree with itself either.

ElDominio · Mar 22, 2011

InferiorityComplex said:
at 50-50, it's take 15% of the popular-vote people. That's still not very much. 5% is virtually nothing, however. Of course, consider that the BBR doesn't usually agree with itself either.

well again, it's basically the suggestion of having applicants be accepted by both the people and the "higher ups"

kind of like how the US government works no?if people don't agree, he doesnt go in, and vice versa.

Thats why i made a small percent, since I'm sure there are widly varying opinions in the BBR, and one person represents a much bigger percent in the BBR than "the people" (should be the other way then eh??? would definently be fairer if the BBR unanimously approves for someones acceptance but the people unanimously decide against it, the people should win.... hmmmm....)

Suspect · Mar 23, 2011

As far as I know other communities dont have "Backrooms" I dont understand why smash needs one. To me its nothing more than some Illuminatti type stuff when you think about (Talk about them get banned, their ideas are the "best".) Glad this thread was made, I'll always be against the idea.

Pierce7d said:
Rare, but not unheard of. There are a few secrets we're holding back. Gotta protect that metagame.

At any rate, I will be renewing the resources which help to give people a window into the BBR, starting with updating the BBR Agenda.

swordgard said:
Hmm, pretty sure your not supposed to talk about this here, isn't that a leak?

unless these are troll posts, posts like these only prove what I said, ITS A VIDEO GAME NOT GOVERNMENT

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 24, 2011

What is wrong with them not wanting to post something or make themselves public?

If they consider themselves like a social group, then they are doing something social groups here can do, which is make themselves private and make addictions into the BBR what they choose.

Difference is this one is a forum sponsored one, heck if I can make a group about Repede to show my resistance to the ponies and make it private so ponies can't view it, I don't see why others can't as well with groups like the BBR.

WindMajor · Mar 24, 2011

RR hit it right on the money.

san. · Mar 24, 2011

Maybe all the stickies and posts that influence the forums have something to do with it..

#HBC | Red Ryu · Mar 24, 2011

san3711 said:
Maybe all the stickies and posts that influence the forums have something to do with it..

Perhaps reasoning posted would help with why they did what they did and their opinion on it. Maybe anonymous quotes would help.

the_suicide_fox · Apr 10, 2011

OMG this website looks much nicer nowadays O.o

I know it's been a while for me. I don't even play Smash anymore, I quit shortly after Brawl came out. IMO Melee was just so much better on so many levels, but that's just me. I have since moved onto other games and have made a name for myself there. Still, the memories of Smash will be with me forever, and I do miss hanging with all my friends.

On topic: I was formerly a member of the Back Room up until my departure from the series after Brawl. I think the intent of the BR is a good one; to be the overseer of the community and to guide it along to be the best it can be. When I was a member, I gained a lot of respect from the community. I was a TO for KOTC (also some of my own stuff) for Melee/Brawl. I liked how the BR would create standardized rulesets. It meant that new TO's had a good starting point for setting up their own thing. The tier list discussions and the like I always felt should be shared by the community, but I understand why the BR would do such a thing. No offense to anyone here, but most of the BR (when I was a member anyway) was made up of generally older and wiser players. Smash being a Nintendo game means you may get a lot of young kids on the forums who want Sonic to be in S tier because he's blue and fast and says things like "Can't catch me". So in a way, the tier list discussions being left only to the back room was a sort of necessary evil. It was done as a way to filter out nonsense and stay focused on which character is actually better, something I don't think could be done in general discussion.

However, shortly after Brawl came out is when the BR started to lose focus and fall off track with things. Discussion about banning this and that were rampant. I even tried to argue how items could MAYBE be tournament worthy, and it ended more or less the same way it would in the general forums with me getting hated on for it. Granted after trying items a few tournies I proved myself wrong, but hey at least I made an attempt. People in the BR started to feel they were somehow controlling the smash scene. In a way some members got a little power hungry. I personally never saw the BR as the commander in chief of the Smash series but rather as a sensei to the masses. Someone who doesn't control, just teaches and helps. I can't speak for the BR today, but I would have hoped that once the Brawl hysteria calmed down they would have been able to bring the focus back to being the guiding hand.

Though I must say the OP has some good points, I don't entirely blame the BR for losing it's purpose. Much of the new blood didn't want much unity, which led to the BR trying to enforce things rather than just suggest them. The creation of AiB probably didn't help much, as it sort of split the community a bit. I personally think AiB is great but it would have been even better had it been a part of SWF. Anyways, the new blood began to disrespect and the BR became kind of a novelty group rather than the helping hand the community needed. Reading some of the recent dicussions on here, I can see the BR is trying to enforce things even more and people seem to resist even more. It's like some kind of grease fire, where no matter how much water you pour on it the fire just gets bigger.

I know AZ and the crew work hard to do what they do, but since Brawl I think it has all been for nothing. Newer players rather just do stuff than listen to someone, and the more they tried to get people to listen, it seems, the more they were ignored. I read through the rulesets and tier lists and it's some great work, but honestly if the community doesn't want it then I don't see much of a point. If the BR was smart they would go on "strike" just to demonstrate how important they really are. However, at the same time the BR should understand you can't force things. The BR at best can suggest things for the community, keep the community unitied, and be role models for the community.

Again, I haven't been here for a while, so I'm just going by this thread and the other dicussions in forums, but it just seems like somewhere along the line something happened that led to the BR breaking down and the general community losing respect for them.

I wish you guys luck in all this. I was just searching through youtube earlier and came across some nice Brawl tourney videos and wanted to see how the community progress and ended up back here. It was a bit disappointing though to see how much hate their is between the BR and the general community. Back then things were different, just hope you guys can settle all this. Smash is a great series (I'm actually planning a smash-like game made in UDK) and I hope it keeps going (plus I hope for Smash 4 someday). Good luck to all of you, and don't be hating so much >,<

PS Just wanted to say there is a ledge grab limit?! Kinda interesting, I know Brawl had an issue with ledge grabbing. Clever way to handle it though. Also, MK is still the best LOL nice to see Falco is top and Lucario is high (they were my Brawl characters). Just wish Fox wasn't so nerfed from Melee. Sad face for mid tier

Vyse · Apr 10, 2011

Raziek said:
Write: Sosuke

Shoutouts to Death Note Mafia! :D

Yeah, hi.

So I woke up this morning to find I've been booted from the bbr for being inactive. Iamokaywiththis.jpg

I think you just need to look at threads out here to figure out why the bbr is needed. There's even a thread calling for a better way to discuss the unity ruleset. When something happens that needs the attention of top players, they have somewhere to convene and talk it out and just them.

The further away we get from the game's initial release, the less relevant they may well be outside of official opinions on tiers, stages, tactics etc. At the beginning, the bbr was absolutely necessary.

The bbr is definitely an important entity. But I think you'll find its importance is more relevant to its own members than others.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Apr 11, 2011

I think I became biased now that I'm in the BBR.

But yeah what Vyse said more or less is true, the longer than game is out the more educated the players become. In which the need lessens and lessens, but hey the MBR is still around and Smash 64 got a backroom so who knows what the future holds.

Life · Apr 11, 2011

suicide fox: You realize people still play Melee, right? Jussayin.

EDIT: While I'm here:

Pierce7d said:
Information and Updates from the Brawl Back Room
From the Director of Public Relations of the BBR
-----------snip-----------
Greetings. For those of you that don't know, the Brawl Back Room is a group of people that strive to enhance the competative community for Brawl. Our Principles, as written in the BBR Constitution are threefold:

Principle 1: To grow the competitive community and promote fair competitive play
Principle 2: To establish standards and provide support for players, tournament organizers, and tournaments worldwide
Principle 3: To develop and guide leaders in order to build and enhance the competitive environment of the community

More simply though, the Back Room is most famous for constructing the "Official Tier List" and the "Official Rule Set." We have other such projects on the way.

Click the little box thing for source.

BSP · Apr 13, 2011

GIMR's little metagame minutes have been more useful than the BBR so far IMO lol

I do like the tier lists though, so stick with that I guess

Ripple · Apr 13, 2011

BSP said:
GIMR's little metagame minutes have been more useful than the BBR so far IMO lol

I do like the tier lists though, so stick with that I guess

GIMR is in the BBR.

he's not more useful than himself +100 others

MK26 · Apr 13, 2011

he is if you guys are a net negative usefulness

Pierce7d · Apr 13, 2011

I just wanted to make something pretty clear.

If top players wanted to get into the BBR, they probably could pretty easily. Maturity and effective communication isn't hard to achieve.

Top players aren't in the BBR because they don't want to be.

If top players really wanted to convene and discuss things which affect them, they would probably, you know, DO THAT. As it stands now, the top players are relatively good at keeping in touch with each other.

The fact of the matter is, top players feel like they have better things to do with their lives. You know what I did last weekend? Hung out with Ally and ADHD at a tournament, and at a friend's house before that. You know what we didn't talk about? If you guessed Smash politics, YOU'RE RIGHT! We talked about random stuff like regular people, and had a good time.

The BBR is full of nerds like me who are (supposed to be) really smart, and have decided to dedicate themselves with trying to pass on information in an organized fashion to the masses. Coming up with this information and organizing it is harder to do amongst the masses, so we have a private group where we can work on this more effectively. Many a pro was in the BBR once upon a time, but never wanted to contribute to any discussion, and really could care less.

See, BPC I, as much as I sometimes disagree with your very linear way of thinking, I appreciate that what you argue for is in the name of what you think is best for the community. What I often get upset with is that people often forget that most of us are all here trying to do the same thing, we simply have different opinions than others. Some people's opinions are less logically sound than others, but for the most part, people aren't trying to get selfish agendas to become mainstream, and if they are, they're wasting their time.

The BBR bends over backwards to try and help people. It is as useful as a tool as you let it be.

fkacyan · Apr 17, 2011

Pierce7d said:
Many a pro was in the BBR once upon a time, but never wanted to contribute to any discussion, and really could care less.

Couldn't.

8|

GimR · Apr 27, 2011

why do people hate on the BBR so much? If you don't like 'em don't follow their rules. I don't like the whole "you don't get stickied if you don't use are rules" thing though.

The BBR: A failed experiment (or: why you should not join the BBR)

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