The BBR: A failed experiment (or: why you should not join the BBR)

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey guys.

If I see posts like this, instant infraction without warning.

Just a heads up if someone else wants to be funny.

...And it got deleted from the thread. So I figure it should be its own thread...

What if we aren't trying to be funny?

I got a PM from InferiorityComplex about the BBR accepting new members, and I replied with "why should I care?". Because honestly? That's how I feel after seeing the more recent turn of events around here. The SWF Brawl Back Room, as an institution, has been pretty much useless since, my guess? Around the start of '09. Basically, the minute people stopped listening to it. All it's got left is character discussions, which are usually way out of date and kind of disappointing, the matchup chart (which really isn't that useful), and rulesets that nobody appreciates or uses.

Don't get me wrong, the BBR should get respect. It's a collection of the most intelligent people in the smash community. But it doesn't. And because it gets very little respect, all it can do are things that are a combination of meaningless (character discussions, matchup chart), out of date (character discussions), completely ignored by the community (BBR Ruleset, and to a lesser extent BBRRC), or better done by the smash lab (any meaningful research).

The metagame data/discussion which matters (character dominance, player rankings, correlation character dominance/player dominance, etc.) is all either been shoved under a rug ("no talking about MK bans, but feel free to talk about and finally implement a ban on every stage which treats him better than Battlefield!") or is being dealt with by non-BBR sources (Ripple and co, doing wonderful work on the character dominance charts). On that note, I think it's fair to say that Ripple (and whoever is working with him, I don't follow the thread that well) have done more meaningful work on Brawl than the entire BBR has over the last few months.

Also, speaking of which, another important part of metagame discussion which has been "shoved under the rug": Stage discussion. Let me be perfectly frank here. STAGE DISCUSSION IS A ****ING JOKE. Look at the stage discussion forum. It's currently inhabited for the most part by long-standing holdouts like me, with the occasional bad troll (I really hope they're trolling) stopping by and spouting nonsense before giving up and leaving. Occasionally a glimmer of hope/smart post from someone like DMG, but that's about it as far as intelligent posts from people who matter (don't get me started on almost everyone else who really matters; talking to most of them is a nightmare/impossible. ADHD is a recurring example, Alex Strife a recent one–you really cannot talk to most of them).
The BBR could've/should've done something about that, like pushing stage discussion in the direction the BBR supports, but they didn't and now there's no point in doing so because it's too goddamn late; look there and you'll see the people who have no influence plea bargaining with the people who do have influence, "oh please don't ban Smashville, you've already banned every other stage with any moving parts, there's no reason to ban Smashville, think of character diversity/game depth". Yeah, Imad.

But in general, what's the point in asking people to join the BBR? You get that lovely little purple name, and then get to do... absolutely nothing worthwhile. If the BBR was sponsoring major nationals left and right at all, if it was giving incentive to use its rulesets, if it was uncovering game-breaking ATs, if it was doing anything that makes the organization worth being in, then I would apply. As such? I have better things to do, and to anyone in the smash community who would apply, I recommend considering this: "Is there any better way I can help the brawl community than joining a group which hasn't mattered for god knows how long?" If you can even begin to host tournaments, or explore the game's codes for ATs (fighter.pac still has some interesting spots) or improve yourself as a player (maybe crack the timing on true pivot smashes for your char, or pick up reverse pivot actions), then you definitely have better tools to improve the brawl community's resources and your own experience of the game than joining this group. If you have anything better to do with your time, you should not join the BBR, and you should not support its ongoing existence until they demonstrate that they are willing to do something relevant and meaningful, like step in on the Pound 5 payout issue, or start hosting major tournaments with the BBR ruleset.

...Yes, I have better things to do than join the BBR. That, if nothing else in this post, should speak volumes about the success of that organization.

EDIT:

I don't know what the bbr is or isn't supposed to be.

But the brawl community really needs organization, and some sort of structure.
-Coherent universal rulesets for comparisons between tournaments and players
and that will serve as an official source for the community
-Some sort of national tournament structure and possibly *hopefully* objective national rankings so players can judge how they are doing and improving
-Ongoing discussions of topics and issues that effect the community when information becomes available that could change previous decisions. Yea so the community discussion on mk was very bickery after the first vote and that needed to be toned down. But that doesn't mean you can ignore it for two years or whatever pretending it doesn't exist and it doesn't have a large impact on the community, especially as more and more information that could be relevant to the decision is brought in (no matter which way you end up deciding).
-More structure on payouts (possibly) and advertising for tournaments
-More cooperation with international scenes.
-Looking at ways to make the game more rewarding/competitive

Maybe this wasn't the bbr's job, and i'm not pointing fingers (and really I don't care). I don't know who's responsibility it is or was, but someone needs to take charge and provide more structured help to the community for your community's sake.

"Social Group"? Well ****, I guess we need some other organization then.

 

[-Ran]

I'm not writing this as a representative of the Back Room. This is just my personal view.

The Back Room went through growing pains, since you had some factions wanting it to be an authoritative group, and others wanting it to just be one for discussion. Many, many players want the BBR to have authority over the rule sets, characters allowed, and even stages; however this was vastly just an illusion of power. The individuals that always had sway over where the community was going were the Tournament Organizers.

Now things have more or less settled. The Back Room is discussing points about the game [match ups, tier lists, etc], and you have another separate entity composed of TOs that are creating the rule sets that they are going to use, which in turn most TOs are going to be utilize since they actually have power. People want to succeed at a national/regional level, so they are locally going to follow the rules and standards set forth by the largest tournaments near them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you what goes on back there? Or what they do?

I gave that warning because someone wanted to be cute and troll an application thread. Even if he wasn't being serious, it's not needed.

No talking about MK is a staff move, not one by the BBR. So don't put the blame on them for that one. After people were trolling and flaming the last four MK ban threads we pulled the plug because people couldn't play nice.

The new sticky rule and unifying of nationals was a move done to make sure people used the same stage list, otherwise they don't get a stick, coverage, or advertisement for their tournaments. Because recommending it was not working TO's were doing whatever they felt like. This rule is approved by the guy who owns this site, so no matter how cool APEX is, Alex will not get a sticky if he doesn't use the recommended ruleset or any of the other goodies that come with it.

Match-up chart was really good, are there issues, well yeah it's a 1.0 there is room to improve. I personally helped make Lucario's match-up with the discussions we had in the Lucario back Room and other panels. We didn't make up crap, we legitimately worked on this to make sure the match-ups were correct.

I dunno, I've worked on one project and we don't know about the other ones. They keep their mouths shut for a reason, because the public can very immature/not knowledgeable about these things and they want to make sure they are discussed with people who know what they are talking about.

I don't think you have a case to say something like this.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not writing this as a representative of the Back Room. This is just my personal view.

The Back Room went through growing pains, since you had some factions wanting it to be an authoritative group, and others wanting it to just be one for discussion. Many, many players want the BBR to have authority over the rule sets, characters allowed, and even stages; however this was vastly just an illusion of power. The individuals that always had sway over where the community was going were the Tournament Organizers.

Now things have more or less settled. The Back Room is discussing points about the game [match ups, tier lists, etc], and you have another separate entity composed of TOs that are creating the rule sets that they are going to use, which in turn most TOs are going to be utilize since they actually have power. People want to succeed at a national/regional level, so they are locally going to follow the rules and standards set forth by the largest tournaments near them.

Okay, slight problems here.

First of all, matchup discussions are not something a shady back room has to deal with. They can easily be dealt with on an open forum, and it's been shown that in said matchup discussions on the open forum, the noobs tend to learn very quickly to shut up and listen when the pros are talking, and more gets done because the BBR does not (and will not ever) have all the professional players in it. I heard quite a bit of grumbling from character boards regarding matchups, and I couldn't help but think, "Damn, couldn't the character boards have done this themselves a little better?" Maybe the MK boards are not representative, but the matchup discussion there just flat-out works. It works really, really well. And even then, what you guys have brought to the table isn't even "how do I play this matchup", information that the average smasher would find useful. It's "how is this matchup when played at the highest level", which is almost completely useless! Why even bother at that point? The only thing it's even remotely good for is if you need to find a secondary or something, and even then, if you're using a character like DDD or Fox, the answer is just a quick question on the character boards/quick look at the FAQ on the character boards away. It's useless. Tier lists are even more useless because there's absolutely no valuable information a competitive player can get from a tier list unless they're just starting out with brawl and want to tier *****.
In short: the non-BBRRC part of the BBR might as well not exist because it is ****ing useless. Essentially what I was saying. I was not kidding when I said that what ripple, on his own, has been doing is worth more to the metagame than pretty much the entirety of what the BBR has done of the last few months.

As far as the BBRRC goes... A+ for effort, I guess... And that's an organization completely separated from the BBR anyways!

 

[-Ran]

The character boards had numerous years to do it. They never did. The Back Room did the match up chart over the course of three months, and for a first revision it's rather well done. The fact of the matter is, you need to reduce the amount of people involved in an activity to generate any tangible gains. If not you delve into constant bickering over tiny points, and nothing gets accomplished.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Do you what goes on back there? Or what they do?

I know what is presented to the public, and it's a damn weak case. Unless they are hiding something back there that you're not even allowed to mention (what's the motive, eh?), then the BBR has done jack **** for the brawl community over the last while.

The new sticky rule and unifying of nationals was a move done to make sure people used the same stage list, otherwise they don't get a stick, coverage, or advertisement for their tournaments. Because recommending it was not working TO's were doing whatever they felt like. This rule is approved by the guy who owns this site, so no matter how cool APEX is, Alex will not get a sticky if he doesn't use the recommended ruleset or any of the other goodies that come with it.

"Boo hoo the most hyped tournament in smash is not getting a sticky/coverage". An incentive should not be something negligible like that, and the fact that APEX is willing to completely ignore it speaks volumes about how useful it is. This is recommending 2.0, and I am willing to bet that by the time APEX 2012 has rolled around, the entire movement will have come crashing down.

Match-up chart was really good, are there issues, well yeah it's a 1.0 there is room to improve. I personally helped make Lucario's match-up with the discussions we had in the Lucario back Room and other panels. We didn't make up crap, we legitimately worked on this to make sure the match-ups were correct.

...And see what I said to -Ran. It's still useless. It has no value in enhancing the metagame; it's just a fancy collection of numbers that aren't really useful for more than bragging rights; like the tier list (also not that useful).

I dunno, I've worked on one project and we don't know about the other ones. They keep their mouths shut for a reason, because the public can very immature/not knowledgeable about these things and they want to make sure they are discussed with people who know what they are talking about.

I don't think you have a case to say something like this.

The public sees almost nothing going on in there. It's one thing to leave us in the dark, but to give us the impression that you are doing absolutely nothing worthwhile... Hell, Ran's post seemed to say, "yep, this is pretty much all we do". That's nothing! It's simply not worthwhile to the brawl community! Being a part of the BBR is not worth its weight in code.

@Ran: Yes, because they were dealing with something vastly more important: HOW THE MATCHUP WORKS!
Look. If I want to learn about the game, I do not care that, say, Pikachu beats Fox 65:35. I do not care that the matchup is ridiculously lopsided. I care about why. I care about why pikachu is considered so much better than fox, not about the fact itself. I don't want to hear "pikachu pretty much auto-wins", I want to hear "Pikachu can CG fox up to about 100%, and then fsmash him for the kill if his DI isn't perfect".

I'm not debating that the BBR are the first to do the matchup chart; I'm claiming that it's flat-out worthless compared to, well, anything that helps people understand how to play the game, from a new AT to a matchup description.

 

[-Ran]

You know what's also worthless? 99.9% of the posts we make on forums, or rather 99.9% of the actions we do in our life, yet we still do them. Of course, we're all entitled to our own opinions.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Ironically, this thread might be more worthless than the BBR's actions.

 

[-Googs]

Hey I wanna be in the backroom who do I talk to?

 

[Mr.-0]

1. I liked tier lists.
2. I don't really care what the BBR does, like melee now <3
3. But if this was the MBR, I'd say this: WTF is the problem? That they're not doing enough? What do you want them to do, advance your games metagame which is already (sorta) dead? I do agree, the no ban MK thing was ****, but RR said it was a staff decision. I don't get what the BBR did to make you so mad. They made a character MU chart, they're working on tier lists, lots of top players communicating and stuff... The only thing I would change is to make the threads view-only for non BBR members. They don't NEED to advance the metagame, noone said that. I'm not sure if that's their purpose or not, but... I still don't get what the BBR did wrong.

 

[VibeSlyph]

You know what would be smart? Any BBR member, Instead of debating with this guy about how BBR is actually doing work, actually do work.

 

[etecoon]

This rule is approved by the guy who owns this site, so no matter how cool APEX is, Alex will not get a sticky if he doesn't use the recommended ruleset or any of the other goodies that come with it.

thank god we have alphazealot around to strong arm people into making pictochat legal and make surgical character specific LGL's

ahahahahahahahahahhaha

 

[Steam]

yes. let's make a thread just to hate on the BBR for who knows what(probably for not legalizing PTAD)

There really isn't much to advance with the metagame at this point... so there isn't much need for the BBR. The matchup chart was great though for version 1

 

[Life]

Feel free to quote my PMs if needed, BPC.

================================

When something is a problem, there are three ways to cope:

1. Ignore or tolerate the problem. This is the course we are on now.

2. Destroy the problem. Want to know how well this works out? Ask an anarchist. (Okay, VERY extreme example, but the point remains--unless you ARE the power, don't waste time trying to FIGHT TEH POWAH--at least, not directly--unless it's your only option--which is rare--I like hyphens)

3. Change the problem into a positive. This is the ideal route in most cases, provided the following:
a. There's something worth salvaging/the option is actually possible: The BBR can be a force for good, as it was in the past, and not a laughingstock. Sometimes there's nothing to salvage, in which case go to option 2 if the problem is serious enough, or 1 if it isn't.
b. It's not cost-prohibitive to do so. SWF is free unless you buy premium--the only cost to do anything is time and reputation, things that, respectively, the BBR has as much as needed and hardly any to lose.
(As a side note, this is the route we've taken with MK. We could let him run free, we could ban him, but instead we have LGLs, IDC banned, etc.)

Our problem, of course, is the BBR and the way it has slowly become irrelevant. Option 1 and Option 2 are basically the same here. The only difference is, Option 1 lets the BBR die slowly.

I propose Option 3. The BBR can be a great thing again. Here's what I recommend doing to revive it again.

1
Declassify​

You are probably going to hate me for bringing this up, as I can't possibly be the first to suggest it. However, after the release of the matchup chart I'm prompted to bring it up again. Someone remind me what the point of the matchup chart was again? It was to "spur discussion" about matchups, right? So why can't we see the logic behind the matchup decisions? Why can't we see what information was used to decide each ratio? Ultimately, a lot of the reason people have no respect for the BBR is that they can't see what's going on so they assume nothing is going on (and are rarely given reason to believe otherwise) or that the BBR members rely too much on outdated info. And if the BBR were turned into a read-only forum (like DH) instead of a private one, it would do a lot to alleviate those concerns.

2
Elections​

If a significant chunk of the BBR is directly elected by poll, then the community as a whole has barely any right to complain as it's effectively the best of them making the decisions. Therefore, I suggest at least one-half (preferably more) of all BBR members must get there by a public election, held every six months to one year. It should still be possible to get there the traditional way, if only because popular opinion isn't perfect and certainly unpopular people with good ideas exist (you all know who I mean), but too much popular opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>> no popular opinion. And if you are selected for BBR membership, you should still be subject to a referendum of some sort.

tl;dr Republics work because the public knows what the officials are doing and can throw them out. Therefore, since the public has control over the officials, the public also respects the decisions of said officials. The BBR doesn't work because we know nothing about it (other than its membership, who are selected by other BBR members, only prolonging the problem), we can do nothing about it, and therefore we ignore it.

================================

The question I must ask, however, is "How do we get there from here?" And this is the incomplete part of the plan--I have no clue how to implement this. I'm just one user in a sea of trolls elite Smashers.

================================

On the BRC: Same exact problems as the BBR except instead of a fewscore people making a logically-backed ruleset that's flexible for all stage opinions and not even trying to enforce it, BRC is less than a dozen people who make a ruleset that's arbitrary (as far as we know, anyway), practically set in stone (look at the people in it and tell me anything is going to change in that ruleset--I'd be excited if they just added Japes), blatantly disregard a significant portion of the community (open-list advocates), and then tries to enforce it and fails spectacularly (Apex).

================================

I also have an idea for an enforcement mechanism that'll be far more effective than the one the BRC uses, but I'd like to see reforms first before I introduce it. (Hint: it's less "enforcement" against deviating tournaments and more "incentive" to follow the rules outlined.)

And for the record, I've been working on this post since the thread opened--meaning all, like, ten posts above me are ninjas (cough, Mr.-0). Grats.

 

[VibeSlyph]

I approve the **** out of that election idea.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know what is presented to the public, and it's a damn weak case. Unless they are hiding something back there that you're not even allowed to mention (what's the motive, eh?), then the BBR has done jack **** for the brawl community over the last while.

The motive is to keep people out and make it a select few. There are people who they deem completely untrustworthy to discuss these things and I don't blame them.

They researched the stage lists, they kept track of every character and stage used at MLG events at Columbus from what I understood this is what happened.

I trust every reason they have to keep things quiet, because as a moderator I've seen stupid outbreaks people do when something like this, Vegas, Pound 5, M2K/ADHD banned from Dallas. It attracts smart people, but it also attracts trolls and problem users.

They have every reason to not reveal everything.

"Boo hoo the most hyped tournament in smash is not getting a sticky/coverage". An incentive should not be something negligible like that, and the fact that APEX is willing to completely ignore it speaks volumes about how useful it is. This is recommending 2.0, and I am willing to bet that by the time APEX 2012 has rolled around, the entire movement will have come crashing down.

Suddenly that tournament gets less hype because less news is going around about it. While the other nationals which did support it start getting much amounts of hype and get more attendance because they got more advertisement.

It matters to some level or degree and it is the only step people can take on it. If Alex leaves the committee and decides to do this, well the rule put down on it will be done and that's that.

...And see what I said to -Ran. It's still useless. It has no value in enhancing the metagame; it's just a fancy collection of numbers that aren't really useful for more than bragging rights; like the tier list (also not that useful).

More like if someone wants to counter pick Lucario, they cann pick from Snake, DDD, Snake, etc. Then look for information on the character and learn this.

The public sees almost nothing going on in there. It's one thing to leave us in the dark, but to give us the impression that you are doing absolutely nothing worthwhile... Hell, Ran's post seemed to say, "yep, this is pretty much all we do". That's nothing! It's simply not worthwhile to the brawl community! Being a part of the BBR is not worth its weight in code.

See my first point.

And don't pretend they have done nothing, because this is flat out wrong.

thank god we have alphazealot around to strong arm people into making pictochat legal and make surgical character specific LGL's

ahahahahahahahahahhaha

Would you rather have people have FD only and then stagelist allowing stuff all the way down to Port Town Aero Drive, all over the country conflicting with one another?

Strong Arming>People doing there own thing for confusing regionals/nationals.

~

The idea of the application thread is so they can let you in if you show interest in it and show your credentials. It's like a job opening.

 

[John12346]

We could actually take this whole election one step further, theoretically. What if we also held polls for stuff regarding rulesets? Stagelists? MK? Just to name a few things.

That would definitely equate to "action" by the BBR and stuff, wouldn't it?

Edit: Although this only applies if the BBR truly isn't "hiding anything," as BPC and Red Ryu have suggested.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We could actually take this whole election one step further, theoretically. What if we also held polls for stuff regarding rulesets? Stagelists? MK? Just to name a few things.

That would definitely equate to "action" by the BBR and stuff, wouldn't it?

You would also need to regulate the poll to figure out who made alt accounts to vote, people who don;t play the game could get an account and vote, etc.

If they do elections they properly are done in the BBR, I believe. Based on how they used to handle stage lists this seems to be the case.

 

[etecoon]

Would you rather have people have FD only and then stagelist allowing stuff all the way down to Port Town Aero Drive, all over the country conflicting with one another?

Strong Arming>People doing there own thing for confusing regionals/nationals.

yeah, allowing people with different ideas to coexist is bad!

 

[John12346]

You would also need to regulate the poll to figure out who made alt accounts to vote, people who don;t play the game could get an account and vote, etc.

If they do elections they properly are done in the BBR, I believe. Based on how they used to handle stage lists this seems to be the case.

That's what I meant. The vote should be restricted to those of the BBR. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough...

Seriously, though, as a representation of the smartest people on SWF, don't you think they themselves would be qualified to decide what rules should be in effect? What stages should be legal/banned? Whether MK stays legal or not?

Ya'll think this might be a good idea?

 

[Ripple]

I can't believe the site developers have not made something for the mods to restrict those who can vote in a public poll.

those who have more than a certain amount of posts or who have a certain join date would be fine

 

[Malcolm.O]

I can't believe the site developers have not made something for the mods to restrict those who can vote in a public poll.

those who have more than a certain amount of posts or who have a certain join date would be fine

What do post counts or join dates have to do with anything

Someone who joined recently and has a low post count can a good forum (user?) as well as a person with 2k
post and with an earlier join date.

All people should be allowed to vote

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

yeah, allowing people with different ideas to coexist is bad!

On a national level it is.

You need consistency, diversity makes this bad.

That's what I meant. The vote should be restricted to those of the BBR. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough...

Seriously, though, as a representation of the smartest people on SWF, don't you think they themselves would be qualified to decide what rules should be in effect? What stages should be legal/banned? Whether MK stays legal or not?

Ya'll think this might be a good idea?

They should, honestly they should have just made TO's a part of the BBR and had them work together on the ruleset.

I can't believe the site developers have not made something for the mods to restrict those who can vote in a public poll.

those who have more than a certain amount of posts or who have a certain join date would be fine

You need to be able to define what is qualified.

What do post counts or join dates have to do with anything
Someone who joined recently and has a low post count can a good forum (user?) as well as a person with 2k post and with an earlier join date

I hope this doesn't turn into 2008 vs not 2008 again.

 

[HeroMystic]

What do post counts or join dates have to do with anything

Alternate accounts.

 

[John12346]

@ Ripple

That's... actually really smart.

However, finding the right number would be hard. The minimum should be the lowest theoretical number of posts one would need to gain a decent enough understanding of the game, but it also needs to be high enough in a way that alts couldn't easily reach that post count.

That alone would make it impossible for alts or uninformed players to vote. Although we need to find the right number to use. I've been here for over 2 years and haven't cracked 1000 posts yet, so maybe some fine tuning?

 

[Malcolm.O]

Alternate accounts.

Find people logging with the same IP.

Then Proceed to give out warnings (or bans) and remove the alts votes from the poll.

If the person tries to change IP then he'd have to change IP again and then log back in to his other account and you could just see his IP and compare it to the last one he logged into

OR

Just leave important polls to the BBR

 

[Ripple]

some people react too fast.

problem1: if there was a public poll, what's to stop people from making alternate accounts and voting and thus, skewing results?

solution: restrict the poll to those with a certain join date?

reaction: WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?!

edit: who honestly has more than 1 account? I only know of 1 person.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Find people logging with the same IP.

Then Proceed to give out warnings (or bans) and remove the alts votes from the poll.

If the person tries to change IP then he'd have to change IP again and then log back in to his other account and you could just see his IP and compare it to the last one he logged into

OR

Just leave important polls to the BBR

Dynamnic IPs get around that. People from Europe have these kinds of IPs from what I've been told as well.

some people react too fast.

problem1: if there was a public poll, what's to stop people from making alternate accounts and voting and thus, skewing results?

solution: restrict the poll to those with a certain join date?

reaction: WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?!

Some people have good insight with small post counts or short join dates, people like Shiro hang around AiB and joined recently, but he's not new to smash by any means.

 

[Malcolm.O]

Dynamnic IPs get around IP bans.



Some people have good insight with small post counts or short join dates, people like Shiro hang around AiB and joined recently, but he's not new to smash by any means.

Then you would notice the change in area (you could check Ip adress)

Or as i said, leave polls for serious things to the BBR

I Doubt people would make alt accounts just for polls and if so you could just simply check the account
If it was signed up for that day and has less then 10 post its more then likely an alt

 

[kingofkings97]

I don't mean to change subject or anything but what was 2008 vs not 2008.

 

[VibeSlyph]

That's what I meant. The vote should be restricted to those of the BBR. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough...

Seriously, though, as a representation of the smartest people on SWF, don't you think they themselves would be qualified to decide what rules should be in effect? What stages should be legal/banned? Whether MK stays legal or not?

Ya'll think this might be a good idea?

This would be an excellent idea if we could get equal representation for each character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't mean to change subject or anything but what was 2008 vs not 2008.

Because of Brawl coming out there was a large flood of newcomers, a of the older vetrains hated this and called then 08'ers as an insult. So it created a bad stigma people of both talking to each other.

Then you would notice the change in area (you could check Ip adress)

Or as i said, leave polls for serious things to the BBR

I Doubt people would make alt accounts just for polls and if so you could just simply check the account
If it was signed up for that day and has less then 10 post its more then likely an alt

People made alts to troll the MK banned threads, I beleive.

And it;s hard to say something is an alt if it just signed up and, most likely, yes, but it's not guaranteed which is the issue.

We don't want to premature ban people and give them a bad stigma for the site.

And yeah, I fully support leaving serious things to the BBR. They were put in there after applying because they proved they are trusted by the community, or BBR. Either way it;s like a job interview, and I trust that an organization like them to know who is trustworthy to let in or not.

 

[Life]

Guys, to reiterate, I'm basically saying to turn the BBR at least partially into a republic.

This is how a republic works. People elect officials. Officials write, pass, execute laws (details vary from place to place). After a certain period of time has passed, officials go up for reelection. If the public likes them, the public reelects them. If the public doesn't like them, the public replaces them.

I am saying we should be able to elect/reelect/replace BBR members to some extent.

Minimum post cutoff should be 500 to 1K. Join date doesn't work because then I could make eighty billion accounts now and make them all vote for Raziek and BPC a year later.

RR: For people like Shiro, there might be a way to gain voting rights despite not hanging around SWF as much. Alternatively, BBR should get AIB to let them make a branch over there. (And I'm curious what about diverse tournament rules is so bad. But that's for another thread.)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The thing is though, then it turns into a popularity contest sometimes.

And even then some people don't want to join it.

I'd prefer the current application system, that way the BBR can review and determine who can be let in based on what they can provide and bring to the organization. Again it's like a job interview, you apply because you want in and the people allowing it are saying you can be let in if your resume is really good.

With an election, I just see Bias and other problems poping up where we get people or kick people out for poor reasons.

~

For the Shiro thing I'm playing devil's advocate, if we restrict voting there may be exceptions to it where we are cutting off smart individuals just because they post post here much on a public forum.

I'm mostly doing this so people are aware there are problems with it.

 

[Browny]

This thread is relevant to my interests.

Also likely 100% true, haven't read it all though

 

[MK26]

restrict polling to people who joined before the poll was opened
duh

 

[Life]

restrict polling to people who joined before the poll was opened
duh

Join date doesn't work because then I could make eighty billion accounts now and make them all vote for Raziek and BPC a year later.

Neeeeeext.

The thing is though, then it turns into a popularity contest sometimes.

And even then some people don't want to join it.

I'd prefer the current application system, that way the BBR can review and determine who can be let in based on what they can provide and bring to the organization. Again it's like a job interview, you apply because you want in and the people allowing it are saying you can be let in if your resume is really good.

With an election, I just see Bias and other problems poping up where we get people or kick people out for poor reasons.

~

For the Shiro thing I'm playing devil's advocate, if we restrict voting there may be exceptions to it where we are cutting off smart individuals just because they post post here much on a public forum.

I'm mostly doing this so people are aware there are problems with it.

Which is why I said that it should still be POSSIBLE to get in by application... but that shouldn't be the only way.

And all elections boil down to popularity contests, unless enough people are willing to vote for someone they don't necessarily like but do agree with.

 

[MK26]

ninja'd :<

fine

before the poll's join date + 50 posts

are you willing to spend the time to 1) create and remember the password for an alt account; and 2) make 50 posts, risking both your initial and alt accounts in the process, just for the probable situation that you'll get two votes on a poll in some unspecified time in the future? And repeat for extra votes?

 

[Delta-cod]

If the poll is so important, why not have people simply post their decision? Outside of privacy issues, this would solve the main problem of how to decide who gets to vote. Alts would have to post in the thread, and they'd be found and discounted and banned. Even inactive forum posters who are also experienced smashers can still get their say in without being restricted by some cutoff data.

 

[Browny]

Oh and btw, for everyone who defends the secrecy of the bbr, answer this;

Name 1 other competitive game which has a secluded group of people who withhold information about the game from the public, whos only wish is to learn more and be able to contribute to future discissions more effectively.