The BBR: A failed experiment (or: why you should not join the BBR)

[John12346]

Also, I never said we'd be looking at banning Meta Knight.

Not ban, just discuss.

But you did say something to the effect of such an action. Something like "The BBR will be discussing the banishment of a certain character sometime soon," or something like that.

But aw nuts, this is mildly disappointing if nothing's planned at the moment. Guess I'll have to step my stat game up, STAT. XD

 

[Shaya]

Not ban, just discuss.

But you did say something to the effect of such an action. Something like "The BBR will be discussing the banishment of a certain character sometime soon," or something like that.

We discuss things, sure.
We don't have the power to say "MK is banned". We don't want to either.
However us going "hey bbr, whats your current thoughts on MK?" isn't too farfetched.

We talk about a lot of characters. I think someone once mentioned banning ganon, but I doubt the legitimacy of the competitive merits mentioned in doing so.

 

[John12346]

We discuss things, sure.
We don't have the power to say "MK is banned". We don't want to either.
However us going "hey bbr, whats your current thoughts on MK?" isn't too farfetched.

We talk about a lot of characters. I think someone once mentioned banning ganon, but I doubt the legitimacy of the competitive merits mentioned in doing so.

Well, I know you don't technically have the authority to make all TOs suddenly ban MK, but you can "recommend" doing so in a Ruleset revision. You also have the authority to open up a community discussion or vote and the like. There are definitely a lot of things the BBR is capable of doing.

Of course, I recognize that a lot, if not all of the procedures to set such a thing up can get tricky due to the spammy, flamey natures of a ton of users, and the fact we don't necessarily don't have anything concrete(yet!), so such a move shouldn't be considered until everyone's a hundred percent sure a procedure to simply get the ball rolling is necessary.

But my, and a lot of other users' hopes lie in the massive data we're collecting(I'm doing stuff outside of Ripple's thread, as well), coupled with the already existing information collected by others. We're hoping it may prompt something in the future.

 

[Shaya]

We like data.
And you guys happen to forget that for the majority of brawl's life time, Ankoku, a BBR member managed it.

We don't really want to "recommend" much either. We've dropped doing rule sets because no one uses them, and all they cause is a **** fest. That's what the BBR RC was created for.

With the "revision 3.1" thing for the rule set, we set it out as plainly as possible what's recommended, but people chose to ignore its merits for LOL-BBR ****fest spamming, trolling, etc.

A majority of the BBR wanted to stress the importance of not having FD as a main starter stage, especially when having only 3 or 5 of them. We also had the suicide rule thing, which while having lots of hate, was competitively sound. The two main things the general BBR wanted to push as recommendations were ignored. Hence we don't feel it's worth working on any longer.

 

[Browny]

Well, to be fair, almost no other competitive game has an extensive ruleset (seriously, the ruleset for Street Fighter pretty much contains your typical character counterpicking and set order, something which has remained constant and unquestioned in almost every fighting game since SF2).

Are you kidding me? Have you see how heavily controlled Halo is rofl.

and I come from PC FPS competitive background, and competitions all around the world would have their own rulesets. They had stage lists with counterpicks, banned weapons, results in the case of a time-out etc. Smash's ruleset isnt any more extensive than other games.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh right, I forgot, there are other games besides fighting games...

 

[John12346]

We like data.
And you guys happen to forget that for the majority of brawl's life time, Ankoku, a BBR member managed it.

Well, yes, Ankoku's data is a subset of the "already existing data," after all.

We don't really want to "recommend" much either. We've dropped doing rule sets because no one uses them, and all they cause is a **** fest. That's what the BBR RC was created for.

With the "revision 3.1" thing for the rule set, we set it out as plainly as possible what's recommended, but people chose to ignore its merits for LOL-BBR ****fest spamming, trolling, etc.

A majority of the BBR wanted to stress the importance of not having FD as a main starter stage, especially when having only 3 or 5 of them. We also had the suicide rule thing, which while having lots of hate, was competitively sound. The two main things the general BBR wanted to push as recommendations were ignored. Hence we don't feel it's worth working on any longer.

Well, I understand this, and I understand the amount of controversy that arises from a ruleset change, as everyone has differing opinions on what they believe the ideal ruleset is, although a lot of ******* conveyed it as, "lol **** the bbr" and the like.

I kinda forgot about the ****storm of rage that came with Ruleset 3.1; I probably blocked it out of memory. >.<;

Then in that case, what about a community poll? If we were able to make a legitimately solid case on something(not just MK, any kind of ruleset changes), couldn't a sitewide poll be prompted in that case? I mean, TOs would have a hard time disagreeing with a change if a majority(2/3?) of users wanted it, right?

 

[Shaya]

I kinda forgot about the ****storm of rage that came with Ruleset 3.1; I probably blocked it out of memory. >.<;

The initial ****fest was with 3.0 when we didn't split up the counterpick stages... We just had starter and "counterpick". Which included the likes of PTAD.

Then in that case, what about a community poll? If we were able to make a legitimately solid case on something(not just MK, any kind of ruleset changes), couldn't a sitewide poll be prompted in that case? I mean, TOs would have a hard time disagreeing with a change if a majority(2/3?) of users wanted it, right?

The BBR doesn't have to be apart of that.

Sure you could ask us to lead such a proposition. But as already noted, the BBR doesn't work within the realms of rule sets any longer. The "TOs" that run tournaments using a specific rule set that has the goal of becoming a standard is the BBR-RC.

 

[John12346]

The BBR doesn't have to be apart of that.

Sure you could ask us to lead such a proposition. But as already noted, the BBR doesn't work within the realms of rule sets any longer. The "TOs" that run tournaments using a specific rule set that has the goal of becoming a standard is the BBR-RC.

Well, yeah, I just felt the poll would definitely pack a lot more power if it weren't just me in charge of it. You guys being a factor would definitely be the best option, especially considering that, at the resolution of the other ban votes, I'm pretty sure people were going to accept the result no matter what.

Of course, even with all of the data in the world, plus the BBR's backing on the scenario, we're likely not going to get anywhere until we get a vote filter going on, even if we have to resort to everyone with >x number of posts posting their vote by hand to a thread. >.o;

Maybe a small side project for the site developers to work on? idk

 

[Marc]

I feel most of this topic pertains the BBR-RC a lot more than the actual BBR, not to mention several points have been addressed multiple times before. A quick recap:

• We got out of the ruleset business after 3.1, which is our final release and still not that outdated if you really need our word on something. In the future, talk to the BBR-RC.
• MK ban discussion being discouraged is a call made by staff, not the BBR. We don't discuss it in the BBR either as we're not above the rules.
• We have a stage analysis project coming up, but it will be catered to newcomers and competitive players alike and not contain recommendations.
• Our projects are indeed mostly descriptive of the current state of the metagame. I don't see the problem. Fighting game scenes need that sort of content and it clearly provokes discussion as the tier list topics (for example) are among the busiest topics on the boards. Pushing the metagame forward isn't done on the boards, it's done at tournaments and many of the people doing this are in the BBR.
• As has been mentioned before, the BBR has dabbled in data gathering for a long time and is still thinking of ways to continue doing this. Ripple does a stellar job, but forgetting Ankoku and Rajam did a lot of work before he picked it up is kind of offensive.
• I said in a MU Chart update that in the future we will try to have more actual writeups, but it's not like there's zero discussion with the BBR as several panel leaders have been more than willing to defend matchups turning out as they have. The BBR isn't a single entity you can talk to; even if we try to be unified you will still have individual people answering.
• The BBR will not become publicly viewable. The origins of the SBR are it being a private social room and while focus shifted to pushing out content and most discussion is smash-related, we still want members to have a room where they can speak freely without being on blast for their individual opinions. It's not like the Debate Hall which sheer purpose is to debate, it's a room where serious discussion and more lighthearted topics go hand in hand and a lot of it is not particularly relevant to the public.
• That said, Pierce is working on updating the updates thread and will be on it again from here on out to promote interaction and transparency. This is why it hasn't been unstickied, although I'm more than willing to admit it has been neglected for too long.
• Finally, there are people who for whatever reason will not be satisfied with the existence of SBRs ever and dignifying them with responses quickly gets old as their tone is often rude and they are way too opinionated to ever see it any other way. Not to mention many criticasters lack the years and/or perspective to even be commenting on the state of the scene in the first place. I'm not quick to dismiss arguments on the basis of the person behind them, but sometimes I really wonder what gives someone the right or credentials to be so full of it. The BBR doesn't get paid, we all have lives and some expectations are simply not reasonable. Especially when you consider that the BBR in a few years has done a lot more than its predecessors already, whether you like it or not.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Opening post is TL;DR. Perhaps if some people could summarize I might respond to it.

I take it this concerns me since through scanning I did notice a lot of questions (and by questions I mean "complaints") about the BBR-RC, the BBR as a whole, and the Matchup Chart.

As one of the leading contributes and drives behind the Matchup Chart, a member of both the BBR and BBR-RC and one of the most actives BBR members you're going to find, I can probably answer any questions people actually have provided they plan to actually ask a question and not just flame. I don't have time or energy to deal with juvenile endeavors at this point. So if you seriously want some feedback, form a mature question directed toward me and I'll answer it as best as I can.

Also on the note of John and Ripple. I don't know John at all. I assume he's awesome since he's rocking Quote all over his posts. I highly respect Ripple and would like him to join the BBR, personally.

 

[Flayl]

I myself honestly don't the purpose of making a back room that has plenty of theorizing on stages/rulesets/matchups. That can be done anywhere.

Back room should be basically about what really happens, people with real experience sharing their conclusions.

But then you see plenty of people who join solely because of their posting performance. People who are still in there because they post even though they haven't done anything in competitive smash for over 6 months. Like, those same people are still posting their opinions "out here", the only difference is that in the BBR their opinions are secretly blended in with the active people's.

Smash lab is the most useless group though. by far.

 

[MonkUnit]

If being in the Smash Lab was just to do something like get character hitbox descriptions, then that means anyone could do it. Just download a copy of Project Smash Attacks and open up a character.

EDIT: Also, IIRC Dantarion already made a site or something with character htiboxes dumped out. Only thing that is left is to make visual hitbox guides.

 

[Pierce7d]

It's quite rare we would withhold information - we don't "discover" things.

Rare, but not unheard of. There are a few secrets we're holding back. Gotta protect that metagame.

At any rate, I will be renewing the resources which help to give people a window into the BBR, starting with updating the BBR Agenda.

 

[Shaya]

Rare, but not unheard of. There are a few secrets we're holding back. Gotta protect that metagame.

*leak editted out*

 

[Poltergust]

I said in a MU Chart update that in the future we will try to have more actual writeups, but it's not like there's zero discussion with the BBR as several panel leaders have been more than willing to defend matchups turning out as they have. The BBR isn't a single entity you can talk to; even if we try to be unified you will still have individual people answering.

This. I've been more than willing to explain why Yoshi came up with the numbers that he did, and I'm sure that most of the other BBR members feel the same way with their characters. What doesn't help anyone is the flaming of the BBR and the MU Chart as a whole. If you have a problem, then we'd be glad to discuss it as long as you remain open and friendly.

 

[swordgard]

Stuff

Hmm, pretty sure your not supposed to talk about this here, isn't that a leak?

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, pretty sure your not supposed to talk about this here, isn't that a leak?

Yes, it's a mighty fine leak. But I have to give people a reason to join the BBR, right?

 

[Pierce7d]

Shaya, you know that that information shouldn't be surfacing on the boards yet. We have enough to deal with atm, especially with the Pound 5 fiasco going on right now. Don't make me infract you.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Did he leak the naked pictures of Ally?

 

[John12346]

Well, regardless of all of these shenanigans, it looks like I have a gameplan now! I mean, as far as the whole Meta-Knight issue. I just need to know, WHEN I'm actually ready to do this, and WHEN I'll need the BBR as a base to jump off of for my project, who should I talk to? Anyone? Someone specific?

And also I'm posting those naked Ally pics on 4chan. Yeah, I saved them

 

[Life]

Sadface because I missed Shaya's leak.

That being said, BBR/RC/staff-types, any comments on my posts?

 

[Krystedez]

lol, I didnt read all 7 pages I but I did read the first post.

Just a quick 2 cents. I joined the BBR because people wanted me to. I wanted to do whatever I could to help the community, and if that meant that I could useful for the community by being a useful member in the BBR, then so be it.

Also, I held my first tournament last weekend. Was a total blast, and may even hold more in the future. How's THAT for contributing :D

So, yea, basically I'm saying you can be apart of the BBR, AND do all that other junk.

 

[Spelt]

i really don't have an opinion about this thread in general, but marc's point about the bbr not discussing meta knight because "you're not above the rules" is an excuse. :/

 

[fkacyan]

There is absolutely no reason you can't post thread transcripts with the usernames scrubbed. If you're that concerned about scrutiny, maybe you're actually wrong.

@BPC: Hey look, we agree again! This is so weird.

 

[Pierce7d]

An excuse? The staff has prevented the entire site from debating about MK, because it was deemed that any and all discussion resulted in too much rule breaking, so discussion itself is now taboo to end all flames. Essentially, priming has been made illegal on top of starting the fire. That's in no way the fault of the BBR.

 

[fkacyan]

An excuse? The staff has prevented the entire site from debating about MK, because it was deemed that any and all discussion resulted in too much rule breaking, so discussion itself is now taboo to end all flames. Essentially, priming has been made illegal on top of starting the fire. That's in no way the fault of the BBR.

I don't recall posting anything about MK.

I'm talking about all of your discussions.

 

[Zankoku]

Pierce's post is in response to Spelt's, not yours.

 

[Marc]

Pierce wasn't addressing you.

InferiorityComplex: Any questions you specifically want answered?

EDIT: Don't ninja me, Ankoku. Jerk. >:/

 

[Spelt]

An excuse? The staff has prevented the entire site from debating about MK, because it was deemed that any and all discussion resulted in too much rule breaking, so discussion itself is now taboo to end all flames. Essentially, priming has been made illegal on top of starting the fire. That's in no way the fault of the BBR.

I never said it was. But that doesn't mean you guys can't talk about it without getting infracted or something. That's what the bbr is for ... to discuss things like this.

And aren't there a bunch of senators/administrators in the BBR anyway?

 

[HeroMystic]

EDIT: Don't ninja me, Ankoku. Jerk. >:/

I found this amusing due to the avatar.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

There is absolutely no reason you can't post thread transcripts with the usernames scrubbed. If you're that concerned about scrutiny, maybe you're actually wrong.

@BPC: Hey look, we agree again! This is so weird.

To be fair, it is possible that it's yet another issue where the BBR is not only right, but against the entire (WRONG) smash community. See also: PTAD's legality, PS2's legality, and Ganoncide rulings. But sooner or later, it'll come out, and when it does, you're going to get that kind of bull**** either way... So basically no matter, what, there's no real excuse to hide **** like that.

 

[Spelt]

To be fair, it is possible that it's yet another issue where the BBR is not only right, but against the entire (WRONG) smash community.

and this is why i try to avoid BPC threads.

 

[solecalibur]

An excuse? The staff has prevented the entire site from debating about MK, because it was deemed that any and all discussion resulted in too much rule breaking, so discussion itself is now taboo to end all flames. Essentially, priming has been made illegal on top of starting the fire. That's in no way the fault of the BBR.

It shouldn't become one, make a sub forum
One strike you are out rules in that sub forum (Example if you break a rule in that sub forum you take the penalty but never allowed to post in it again but view it)
, talk about meta knight cause there are legit discussion there

 

[The Real Inferno]

I don't think many people understand how far beyond the BBR that the "Staff" is. When a decision comes down from the people who own and operate the website, it doesn't really matter how much anybody wants something, that's the way it goes.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't think many people understand how far beyond the BBR that the "Staff" is. When a decision comes down from the people who own and operate the website, it doesn't really matter how much anybody wants something, that's the way it goes.

Even at the cost of potentially disrupting how the metagame should be going? I find that to be silly. If BBR (or BBR-RC now I guess), needs to discuss something because they feel a need to have a rule related to that, they should be allowed to do so.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

They said you can discuss it in social/topic related to MK banned groups. Just not on the main forums because it attracts bad attention.

Also isn't the BBR suppose to be people who can talk about these things civilly while being the bright and knowledge? If they can't or misbehave outside of the BBR they get booted like Xyr0 and Inui did. So what would be wrong if they could discuss it? A lot of the problems are because the general public can't do it.

 

[Keitaro]

I don't have time to read a bunch of paragraphs but I will say you are right on alot of things in your first post BPC.

I myself am trying to make some future changes in the BBRRC that will hopefully one day come to light as TOs all over the US can do more than make a common useable ruleset for everyone to use.

That of course is still good imo, but I feel we can do far more.

 

[Marc]

Also isn't the BBR suppose to be people who can talk about these things civilly while being the bright and knowledge? If they can't or misbehave outside of the BBR they get booted like Xyr0 and Inui did. So what would be wrong if they could discuss it? A lot of the problems are because the general public can't do it.

The BBR is not supposed to be above sitewide rules, but even without that rule I have a hard time seeing the merits of doing the same old song and dance again. Even if the BBR is more mature about it than the general public, it puts everything else effectively on hold and gets very heated. A major problem is that almost everyone is invested in some way; people with a poor matchup against MK benefit from him being gone, while MK mains (especially those that place well) obviously want to keep the main they put in work for. That's besides the fact that many people have been pro-ban or anti-ban crusaders for about two years now and are unlikely to ever change their opinion. Regardless, there have been five attempts at banning the character and I don't think the arguments (or underlying emotions) have changed. Every single time the community was split on it and I don't feel it's fair to revisit it in some cycle (during which nothing else gets done and everyone hates one another for at least three months) until he does get banned in one attempt, at which point an unbanning will be very hard because that's just how our scene works. I feel as a scene we should move on from the issue, unless something major happens that warrants revisiting it. That's just my take on it. From my individual (!) perspective it's a representation problem in the US only, as there's no reason for Japan or Europe to ban him, nor has there ever been. This has always made me somewhat neutral as to the outcome of the discussion, but I think the discussion itself is more cancerous to the community than MK will ever be.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The BBR is not supposed to be above sitewide rules, but even without that rule I have a hard time seeing the merits of doing the same old song and dance again. Even if the BBR is more mature about it than the general public, it puts everything else effectively on hold and gets very heated. A major problem is that almost everyone is invested in some way; people with a poor matchup against MK benefit from him being gone, while MK mains (especially those that place well) obviously want to keep the main they put in work for. That's besides the fact that many people have been pro-ban or anti-ban crusaders for about two years now and are unlikely to ever change their opinion. Regardless, there have been five attempts at banning the character and I don't think the arguments (or underlying emotions) have changed. Every single time the community was split on it and I don't feel it's fair to revisit it in some cycle (during which nothing else gets done and everyone hates one another for at least three months) until he does get banned in one attempt, at which point an unbanning will be very hard because that's just how our scene works. I feel as a scene we should move on from the issue, unless something major happens that warrants revisiting it. That's just my take on it. From my individual (!) perspective it's a representation problem in the US only, as there's no reason for Japan or Europe to ban him, nor has there ever been. This has always made me somewhat neutral as to the outcome of the discussion, but I think the discussion itself is more cancerous to the community than MK will ever be.

Alright I can understand this. Probably since I don't get in a hiss fit/or super angry in debate, baring a few exceptions.

I just don't see it like this whenever I think about discussing it with people, but people aren't robots or always like how I am when I debate.