Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Ripple]

ripple,
when you will have ready the guide where you indicatete character changes with the arrangement of the 1.1?

never!!!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

 

[Crow!]

Okay, I've taken the time out to read through this thread now. I'm intrigued enough to try it out.

I'd like to give props to Zant for taking some initiative for not only investigating the idea, but doing his part to make it easy for others to make their own informed decisions through videos and tournament experience (albeit WiFi). I'll be joining that tourney myself, and I expect anyone who voiced a strong opinion (or simply strong curiosity) on this topic and doesn't cringe too badly at the thought of WiFi to do the same.

Thinkaman also gets a shoutout for his thorough report; though it apparently missed some key details, putting ideas together like that make discussion much easier and more productive.

 

[EPsilon933]

*giving credit to Zant*

Hahaahaaa. Thanks. But I really haven't done nearly as much work as anyone like Ripple or Dark 3nergy has. I made those videos to spread the word of this idea to my Melee subscribers.

 

[IYM!]

never!!!!!

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

good one


no, really, when you will have it ready?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ok define merit of the game. what is merit? if my character is nerfed from one version to another that gives me enough incentive to not play it, why does that not count for merit? especially if there is still a huge scene for the game

also, I'm not directly comparing the games. I'm comparing the act of change from one game to another. If you want, I could give WoW analogies, since that is an "alteration" of its former self and not a "new game"

However, the differences between the changes in brawl and the changes in a game like SF is that it's coming form the designers not some frustrated piece of **** player that can't win with their character so the y decided to buff their character and nerf others. For **** sakes let the game develop. Anyone in their mommas woulda of said that at MLG DC Ally m2k would be in the finals playing each other again. What do we have Rich Brown vs ADHD. NO one saw that coming. The game is fine as it is.

Oh look, we have to go get an SD card, put certain files onto it, hardmod our wiis, and then download a patched ISO and put it on a hard drive which is formatted specially to fit up with highly illegal USB loaders in order to play 1.1 brawl!

Alternatively:

You know what, I agree. We shouldn't modify brawl. At all. From its default settings. Let's have those items back, oh, and Hyrule Temple, I LOVE that stage, oh and 2-minute time matches with sudden death. GREAT PLAN.

Seriously, this post is bad and you should feel bad.

Nice try jack but not really, There's a difference between have items on and off and changing the damage out put. The same way we don't play by usings coins instead of stocks. However, i reject any type of modification to the game. Everyone is playing on 1.0 why switch to 1.1 ? Why the **** do I have to change the standards accepted by everyone played on before everyone for some silly **** that decided he 1.1 may be better because MK isn't as OP. If MK is the problem then ban him. You can't beat MK learn to beat him. If you can't Learn him. If you still suck then quit. Raise your level of play don't change the settings to suit you. Sorry if this offends anyone....actually I'm not sure grow a pair.


Once again I challenge by about the notion and idea of balance that is necessary or needed.
There's only one way to truly have balance and that's for all characters to have the same moveset and moves. Since we're not going to do that it's not going to be balanced. Stop *****ing practice more or quit. It's pretty ****ing simple actually. If you're not putting the effort in then don't complain. If you are putting the effort in and still losing pick up a better character. If you still can't win after picking up the best character in the game then it's not the game but it's yourself so you should sit down and reflect upon life.

guess how you get better with ABSOLUTELY no downside? pick metaknight.

^^^PROBLEM right there

That isn't a problem at all people will learn MK be good with him and people will defeat these MK's. When the best MK player loses to an oli or falco or Diddy snake etc etc etc you should start to say hey maybe this game isn't all about MK. But what you do you whine complain and cry about MK and then wonder why you can't beat an MK. Here's a clue pick a better character quit or STFU. Any choice would be nice. I'd prefer if you STFU and I wouldn't mind if you quit.

 

[Ripple]

and with that, I will never see what you have to say ever again as you clearly were not properly raised with how to treat someone with respect

 

[EPsilon933]

[lots of stuff]

2.5 years is not enough time to develope?
The game is not fine as it is. Brawl is pretty bad.
It's not just about fixing it to fix balance, but to fix gameplay as well.

MetaKnight isn't the only problem.
I'd rather raise the level of how fun Brawl is than raise the level of how good I am.

I can't tell how much balance is needed, but it definitely improves what's already there.
You can have good balance, but good balance doesn't have to be perfect.

8 of the top 16 at MLG DC used MK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

2.5 years is not enough time to develope?
The game is not fine as it is. Brawl is pretty bad.
It's not just about fixing it to fix balance, but to fix gameplay as well.

MetaKnight isn't the only problem.
I'd rather raise the level of how fun Brawl is than raise the level of how good I am.

I can't tell how much balance is needed, but it definitely improves what's already there.
You can have good balance, but good balance doesn't have to be perfect.

8 of the top 16 at MLG DC used MK.

If you don't like the game then quit. If you feel it's a bad game why try to make changes it to it? Just quit. If you're only playing for fun then your opinion is meaningless and holds no merit in people who play competitively and play to win. Sorry mangz that's just how it is.

 

[Steeler]

this doesn't fix how powerful running away is, and thus doesn't fix the biggest problem with brawl

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

and with that, I will never see what you have to say ever again as you clearly were not properly raised with how to treat someone with respect

If you have a problem with me then say it. Don't talk about my parents or how I was brought up. You don't know me nor my parents. Okay?

 

[Zankoku]

Keep it civil, please. Intelligent discussion does not necessitate insults.

 

[EPsilon933]

If you don't like the game then quit. If you feel it's a bad game why try to make changes it to it? Just quit. If you're only playing for fun then your opinion is meaningless and holds no merit in people who play competitively and play to win. Sorry mangz that's just how it is.

I find 1.1 fun, so I'm going to support this idea. But I find 1.0 boring because:
- Stale moves has too much effect, which is one of the reasons why characters live too long and don't die when they should
- MetaKnight (1.1 could fix this, but no one's really sure if it does)
- chain throws
I could go on into more detail

You think I'm a competitor, don't you? I'm actually not. I don't enter tournaments anymore. I record tournaments for youtube. I want Brawl to be as fun to watch and play as possible while still being competitive. If it wren't competitive, there'd be no tournaments to record at. But don't worry, I still play friendlies. I think I still have merit in this discussion.

Also, why so serious? Brawl is a video game. You should try enjoying the game.

 

[Chuee]

8 of the top 16 at MLG DC used MK.

and only 1 placed top 4

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I find 1.1 fun, so I'm going to support this idea. But I find 1.0 boring because:
- Stale moves has too much effect, which is one of the reasons why characters live too long and don't die when they should
- MetaKnight (1.1 could fix this, but no one's really sure if it does)
- chain throws
I could go on into more detail

You think I'm a competitor, don't you? I'm actually not. I don't enter tournaments anymore. I record tournaments for youtube. I want Brawl to be as fun to watch and play as possible while still being competitive. If it wren't competitive, there'd be no tournaments to record at. But don't worry, I still play friendlies. I think I still have merit in this discussion.

Also, why so serious? Brawl is a video game. You should try enjoying the game.

No, I don't think you're a competitor. I however, disagree with the notion that you feel as though you have something to say when it comes to the competitive brawl scene. If brawl is boring and you only upload vids. You shouldn't really talk about anything brawl. If you want to play for fun then do that. Don't join in a conversion where people want mass changes to brawls competitive scene.

I enjoy the game a whole hell of a lot. Even though it's a game there's still lots of money on the line. So I'd like for those who don't play competitively or only want to play for fun. To just stop it. A thread like this shouldn't of even been opened this long. But whatever IDC anymore.

For those of us who learned frame damage how much damage moves does knock back take into factor stale moves etc etc etc for someone who doesn't even take the game seriously. You really shouldn't even have a voice opinion or have anything to say on the subject. Like I've said countless time you don't like the game quit. Don't try and change to suit you and your agenda. If you want MK gone ban him .


This thread is 68 pages of **** that could be summed up in one sentence.

 

[Espy Rose]

Chuee.

50% of the top 16 was Meta Knight.

 

[•Col•]

Chuee.

50% of the top 16 was Meta Knight.

Obviously first place is the only thing that really matters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Chuee.

50% of the top 16 was Meta Knight.

So MK's the most played character isn't it reasonable to assume that he's going to have more people place higher with him?

 

[John12346]

I see very few Meta-Knights below 16th place...

@ AlmostLegendary's response below, due to Jack reminding us this isn't a MK ban discussion: I actually worded the above wrongly. I meant to say that proves MK is a polarizing overcentralizing character.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I find 1.1 fun, so I'm going to support this idea. But I find 1.0 boring because:
- Stale moves has too much effect, which is one of the reasons why characters live too long and don't die when they should
- MetaKnight (1.1 could fix this, but no one's really sure if it does)
- chain throws
I could go on into more detail

Chainthrows are the only thing on this list that will be affect, stale moves will always be there, Metaknight is going to be stupid like he always is.

My opinion about this from what I've played and tested, sorry.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I see very few Meta-Knights below 16th place...

I feel like I've been trolled. You see very few meta knight of very few metaknights you know of? I've counted at least 5 below the 16th placins.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Alright, almostlegendary, time to back it off. This isn't a MK debate thread, and no one cares if YOU don't like the thread. If you don't have anything constructive to say, then don't post, because all of your "don't change the game" BS is:

A ) probably disingenuous at best, and a straight up LIE at worst... unless you really DO support All-Brawl
B ) not actually adding to the discussion
C ) mainly flaming about how other posters are stupid
D ) taking things seriously off-topic
E ) dangerously close to getting another thread closed for "ban MK" discussion

Enough, dude. Either discuss 1.1 based off of IT'S OWN merits / flaws and stop trolling and flaming, or leave.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alright, almostlegendary, time to back it off. This isn't a MK debate thread, and no one cares if YOU don't like the thread. If you don't have anything constructive to say, then don't post, because all of your "don't change the game" BS is:

A ) probably disingenuous at best, and a straight up LIE at worst... unless you really DO support All-Brawl
B ) not actually adding to the discussion
C ) mainly flaming about how other posters are stupid
D ) taking things seriously off-topic
E ) dangerously close to getting another thread closed for "ban MK" discussion

Enough, dude. Either discuss 1.1 based off of IT'S OWN merits / flaws and stop trolling and flaming, or leave.

Some people have made claims this nerfs MK. The OP of this thread made it perfectly clear that it was one of his reasons for supporting 1.1.

Sorry but he has every right to bring up the MK issue when the thread itself is using the reward of a nerfed MK as a reason to support it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK is in no way nerfed by 1.1, except that initial DI is more effective vs Tornado, and MAYBE in that his multi-hit moves are easier to escape with SDI. If anything, he is made better because of how effective gimping is overall.

 

[Flayl]

Some people have made claims this nerfs MK. The OP of this thread made it perfectly clear that it was one of his reasons for supporting 1.1.

Sorry but he has every right to bring up the MK issue when the thread itself is using the reward of a nerfed MK as a reason to support it.

I'm pretty sure the main reason was infinites...

 

[•Col•]

MK is in no way nerfed by 1.1, except that initial DI is more effective vs Tornado, and MAYBE in that his multi-hit moves are easier to escape with SDI. If anything, he is made better because of how effective gimping is overall.

In 1.0, 90% of the time, if MK hits you while you're offstage, you're most likely dead anyway.

Overall, I think a lot of other characters get more benefits from the change than MK. So even though he's technically better too, it doesn't really matter if a large number of characters get a larger boost.

Anyway, my tv broke this week, so I can't even try 1.1 out anymore.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure the main reason was infinites...

So, I was fumbling around in the vs. mode and came upon the ratio change. I've tested out a lot of what could change about the ratio at 1.0 -- what we are all used to and the new 1.1 ratio. It seems like it gets rid of 90% of the stuff that people complain and whine about without hacking the game. I think it would be best to run the ratio to 1.1; it adds to more technical skill, MK can't tornado spam for free like he used to be able to do, and characters like Pikachu and Falco can't chain grab forever now.

E.G. DDD can't infinite Mario if the ratio is at 1.1.

What I'm trying to say is that I think you push a majority of the character MU ratios that were in disadvantage more toward even if you change it to 1.1, rather than keeping it at 1.0. Moves that were multi-hit can be DI'd out of a lot easier. MK's tornado, Snake's Ftilt, Marth's Dancing Blade, etc. are all easier to avoid the last hit.

I was using 1.1 MK and I tornado'd a level 9 Snake with the weak version of tornado and got Baired for it. Too good. For anyone trying to argue that 1.1 isn't the regular addition to Brawl play, the regular addition to Brawl play to what we changed was time -- 2-3 minute timer with 1.0, no handicap, and all stages on. We as a community changed that to 3 stock, 8 minute timer, and Friendly Fire on.

So what I'm trying to say is that we should try and make 1.1 the new meta game. It makes MK more punishable and it would make us want to re-watch "FOW vs SK92." =D

Before any further comments are made, just try the 1.1 ratio gameplay for yourself and play any character you make reference to on this forum.


Edit:

The more I read this the more I find errors in my own typing so just bare with me!!

He's making it sound like it's a main reason like infinites.

 

[Ripple]

No, I don't think you're a competitor. I however, disagree with the notion that you feel as though you have something to say when it comes to the competitive brawl scene. If brawl is boring and you only upload vids. You shouldn't really talk about anything brawl. If you want to play for fun then do that. Don't join in a conversion where people want mass changes to brawls competitive scene.

I enjoy the game a whole hell of a lot. Even though it's a game there's still lots of money on the line. So I'd like for those who don't play competitively or only want to play for fun. To just stop it. A thread like this shouldn't of even been opened this long. But whatever IDC anymore.

For those of us who learned frame damage how much damage moves does knock back take into factor stale moves etc etc etc for someone who doesn't even take the game seriously. You really shouldn't even have a voice opinion or have anything to say on the subject. Like I've said countless time you don't like the game quit. Don't try and change to suit you and your agenda. If you want MK gone ban him .

Contradiction much?

also, thanks for giving him that stern warning ankoku. This posts really shows that he turned it down a notch after insulting me.

back on my ignore list

 

[Meru.]

In 1.0, 90% of the time, if MK hits you while you're offstage, you're most likely dead anyway.

Overall, I think a lot of other characters get more benefits from the change than MK. So even though he's technically better too, it doesn't really matter if a large number of characters get a larger boost.

Anyway, my tv broke this week, so I can't even try 1.1 out anymore.

[Mostly theory] I think MK has actually improved, because his damage racking abilities aren't nerfed at all, his pressure is pretty much just as good, he now kills easier and his gimps are even better.[/Mostly theory]

 

[Tesh]

Increased knockback just makes people even more likely to camp and escape from damaging approaches. It also makes people even less likely to get stuck in semi-combos they set up kill moves.

Increased knockback doesn't make MK easier to hit. It doesn't improve the odds against ledge camping. Aside from a meaningless change in tornado, the only thing thats going to hurt MK here is perhaps snake losing nothing from this. Diddy might get better as well, as he combos mostly off of a static animation than actual knockback.

Falco and Olimar will pose much less of a threat without those low percent combos that push MK halfway into kill percents.

 

[Ripple]

Increased knockback just makes people even more likely to camp and escape from damaging approaches. It also makes people even less likely to get stuck in semi-combos they set up kill moves.

Increased knockback doesn't make MK easier to hit. It doesn't improve the odds against ledge camping. Aside from a meaningless change in tornado, the only thing thats going to hurt MK here is perhaps snake losing nothing from this. Diddy might get better as well, as he combos mostly off of a static animation than actual knockback.

Falco and Olimar will pose much less of a threat without those low percent combos that push MK halfway into kill percents.

why would you even want to plank on the edge when 1 mistake will get you killed at 60%? playing on the ledge is riskier and thus won't be a as good tactic.

2. diddy gets worse

3. so? just because falco stands a chance now doesn't mean he necessarily should in every version

 

[Zankoku]

Falco's still pretty solid in 1.1. So he loses the damage off of his chaingrab and that dair spike after a long chain, I guess, but that bair becomes so much more threatening.

 

[John12346]

why would you even want to plank on the edge when 1 mistake will get you killed at 60%? playing on the ledge is riskier and thus won't be a as good tactic

Planking has been proven framewise to be unbeatable and changing the ratio to 1.1 doesn't change any aspect of it, except making it stronger.
.
.
.
.
.
(response to below)
MK messing up his planking results in him being slightly below the stage. It's still very hard for the opponent to do anything about him when he's there.

 

[Cherry64]

Planking has been proven framewise to be unbeatable and changing the ratio to 1.1 doesn't change any aspect of it, except making it stronger.

People mess up, and when they mess up they could possibly die at 60%. Unless your saying that people don't make mistakes when they plank, in that case tell a friend of yours' little brother what it is and how to do it and go destroy his feeble attempts to do so.


Sorry if that comes off as a personal attack. It was not.

 

[UberMario]

Unfortunately, the only way to stop the "unbeatable" planking [other than abusing errors on the opponent's behalf, which is a given] is to change the weight balance in the game, but as has been said before, it is 99% too late for that to happen.

 

[Pierce7d]

Okay, so basically you just said, "Planking is broken, and this doesn't fix it."

Staying the same doesn't fix it either, so as far as this topic is concerned, no one cares about planking. It's irrelevant, and a moot point.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Falco's still pretty solid in 1.1. So he loses the damage off of his chaingrab and that dair spike after a long chain, I guess, but that bair becomes so much more threatening.

he still gets some good follow ups out of dthrow from 0-20%. So does pikachu with both dthrow/fthrow. I cant complain rly

He's making it sound like it's a main reason like infinites.

i do believe ripple also mentioned a few other things about DDDs infinites...idk maybe he can bring them up i kinda forgot what he said about them

Okay, so basically you just said, "Planking is broken, and this doesn't fix it."

Staying the same doesn't fix it either, so as far as this topic is concerned, no one cares about planking. It's irrelevant, and a moot point.

doesnt mean people cant and shouldnt attempt to do so in friendlies, might as well just out of curiosity

 

[•Col•]

[Mostly theory] I think MK has actually improved, because his damage racking abilities aren't nerfed at all, his pressure is pretty much just as good, he now kills easier and his gimps are even better.[/Mostly theory]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not saying that MK is actually worse. I'm saying that if a lot of other characters benefit more from the change, then MK is worse relative to the rest of the Brawl cast.

 

[Tesh]

why would you even want to plank on the edge when 1 mistake will get you killed at 60%? playing on the ledge is riskier and thus won't be a as good tactic.

2. diddy gets worse

3. so? just because falco stands a chance now doesn't mean he necessarily should in every version

How is it riskier to plank now? Big deal IF they could hit you, you will die earlier. Yes you can get stagespiked harder to just spiked harder. But thats a two-way street. Every time the guy anti-planking gets hit, he is sent even further away. People do mess up, but you have to look at risk-reward.

How does diddy get worse? He is one of the only characters that won't have his most reliable kill setups altered. Don't say its because "higher knockback makes it easier to gimp him".

My point about falco , pikachu (and perhaps olimar) is that removing these devastating combos might make them less overpowered against mid-low tiers but if you take away the biggest threats to MK, you can't really say 1.1 is going to improve balance. If this improves "balance" by nerfing most of MKs evenish matchups, it would make the metagame even more centralized. At least Snake should still be a major threat to MK.

I just want to understand how this improves game balance.

Also, not sure if its been answered, but how does this affect Yoshi's "heavy" armor. Does that ability scale with the damage ratio or does Yoshis just get wrecked a little harder by this?

Edit : Not trying to derail this into an MK ban discussion, but he has to be factored into any perceived "balance" improvement.

 

[Luxor]

My point about falco , pikachu (and perhaps olimar) is that removing these devastating combos might make them less overpowered against mid-low tiers but if you take away the biggest threats to MK, you can't really say 1.1 is going to improve balance. If this improves "balance" by nerfing most of MKs evenish matchups, it would make the metagame even more centralized. At least Snake should still be a major threat to MK.

I just want to understand how this improves game balance.

Not trying to derail this into an MK ban discussion, but he has to be factored into any perceived "balance" improvement.

Thisx10. Does anybody have any solid theory as to how this improves balance? I guess it balances CG-centric matchups, so Falco won't **** randomly as hard as before, but at higher levels and top tiers it seems to make MK stronger.

 

[Ripple]

How is it riskier to plank now? Big deal IF they could hit you, you will die earlier. Yes you can get stagespiked harder to just spiked harder. But thats a two-way street. Every time the guy anti-planking gets hit, he is sent even further away. People do mess up, but you have to look at risk-reward.

How does diddy get worse? He is one of the only characters that won't have his most reliable kill setups altered. Don't say its because "higher knockback makes it easier to gimp him".

My point about falco , pikachu (and perhaps olimar) is that removing these devastating combos might make them less overpowered against mid-low tiers but if you take away the biggest threats to MK, you can't really say 1.1 is going to improve balance. If this improves "balance" by nerfing most of MKs evenish matchups, it would make the metagame even more centralized. At least Snake should still be a major threat to MK.

I just want to understand how this improves game balance.

Also, not sure if its been answered, but how does this affect Yoshi's "heavy" armor. Does that ability scale with the damage ratio or does Yoshis just get wrecked a little harder by this?

Edit : Not trying to derail this into an MK ban discussion, but he has to be factored into any perceived "balance" improvement.

1. It is MUCH riskier to plank against anyone not named fox and falco. anyone with a projectile (except fox and falco) is buffed. planking against a yoshi, or diddy or SNAKE is MUCH MUCH RISKIER.

2. the 1.1 DR causes characters that are hit by a banana to trip farther. ( and get up faster?)

3. tornado is much more punishable. MK's on stage game is DRASTICALLY worsened. characters that are power houses that are safe ( snake/DK/olimar/ and to an extent marth) are favored more than weak characters that are safe. ( MK/Pika/)

I can almost guarantee that Fox will counter MK in this version.

4. I have no idea about yoshi.

5. WE KNOW WE KNOW WE KNOW ALREADY! WE ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS! WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING IT YET