Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[GeneralWoodman]

One of the major problems with jigglypuff in 1.0 is that at 0%-20%; opponents can let themselves get hit just to land a smash attack or fastfalled nair to deal more damage then what jiggz outputs. In 1.1, a strong nair or fair at 0%-20%has pretty decent knock back and can even chain into more reliable followups. Not to mention, rest gets a small boost as well. 1.1 is fun

 

[Tesh]

1. It is MUCH riskier to plank against anyone not named fox and falco. anyone with a projectile (except fox and falco) is buffed. planking against a yoshi, or diddy or SNAKE is MUCH MUCH RISKIER.

2. the 1.1 DR causes characters that are hit by a banana to trip farther. ( and get up faster?)

3. tornado is much more punishable. MK's on stage game is DRASTICALLY worsened. characters that are power houses that are safe ( snake/DK/olimar/ and to an extent marth) are favored more than weak characters that are safe. ( MK/Pika/)

I can almost guarantee that Fox will counter MK in this version.

4. I have no idea about yoshi.

5. WE KNOW WE KNOW WE KNOW ALREADY! WE ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS! WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING IT YET

1. Snake, maybe, yoshi? No way, eggs don't kill so increased knockback does not help there at all. Grenades will actually push him above the ledge or stagespike. Its not much much riskier, its like 20% riskier IF the move has any kill potential.

2. 1.1 DR is not nearly enough of a change to stop GT fsmash and GT dsmash from working. For all we know, it just makes it harder for all of those reverse banana infinite to work on him. From what I have been reading here, it would also make banana throws on aerial opponents have more hitstun. In any case if you ARE right, then the 1.1 tier list will be :

SS tier
MK

S tier
Snake

A tier
Falco, Diddy etc.

Sure snake will be have slight disadvantaged matchups, but no one else will be nearly as useful as he is against MK.

3.Tornado easier to punish? Smart use of tornado will still be great. Huge characters that sucked at escaping it will still get wrecked by it. This hitbox is still huge, it still has 29 frames of lag. Some small characters might pop out more easily, but its a small loss.

Fox countering MK? Because upsmash kills at like 70%? Olimar already does that in 1.0. And if Fox loses combos and semi combos in this trade off he will be even worse off. Because MK still has his juggles, his frame traps and his shuttle loop will still kill Fox at like 50% on stage.

I'm all for testing new things, keeping it fresh and expanding the metagame, but lets not pretend this helps balance the game if it doesn't.

 

[Cherry64]

Ah Tesh, I didn't know you played Super Theory bros. Brawl dude, let alone mained fox in it. As I have played 1.1 AND used fox in it, I WILL say that FOX's COMBO'S don't get super nerfed. Sure a few of them get dropped, and we'll have to figure out the new strings, but overall he is buffed by a lot by this. MK against him wasn't terrible before hand either, Tornado was kind of Lame for us, but now Mk's tornado gets ruined by our Dair. It tosses fox up and fox Drills Meta out of it, if he DI's it we have our answers for that too. If things are easier to DI, then learn how to predict them if they are going to DI and have back up options for it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

imo anything that makes sdi better stronger or easier, absolutely ***** any abilitys fox has.

 

[Cherry64]

most people can't SDI fox's shinaniganz now, so we've never had to showcase other stuff. Maybe it's just me, but if they SDI it, then either Mash Jab, because his jab is fast, or shield grab their on-coming attack.

His multi hit jab is terribad, if any fox does that on purpose, they better have a good reason to eat an Fsmash.

 

[Tesh]

So what you are saying is that Fox will be able to figure out new combos and be able to counter tornado. But MK will not figure out new combos or DI out of anything.

If he lost his combos and you claim you WILL have to figure out some new ones, how did he get buffed? Everyone killls earlier so that doesn't count. Does jab 2 combo into upsmash now?

MK isn't "terrible" against alot of characters. Doesn't mean MK will lose the matchup now. Fox still has a fairly limited recovery.

As for Nado, I'd like to see some proof that properly using tornado actually tosses fox into a good position to punish it before it ends. Lets keep in mind that Nado has great mobility. Its also possible for MK to not use nado so much. He doesn't HAVE to ya know.

I just want to see some proof that this changes how the matchup works.

 

[Cherry64]

So instead of saying that MK will also learn new stuff, as will fox. You decide to say "mk will not figure out new combos or DI out of anything". Awesome, do you really hate this idea because you've tested it out, or because you like to debate? you know there's a hall for that right....

Proof there shall be, however I, like most of the smash community can't afford a Capture card. Hopefully some other peeps will help out with more vids as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1qr2j-do2I

mr. doom essentially only wins this match because his SDI is amazing and he got lucky once or twice. and youre tell me that its going to be consistently easier to do that kind of stuff to him, and some how fox is still better off?

 

[Cherry64]

The SDI is possible to do, and I have never said otherwise. The likelyhood that others hae as good SDI as him is rather small, so on everyone but Mr.Doom and the random people that have yet to show us how crappy their SDI is, fox will be better off IMO.

 

[Tesh]

So instead of saying that MK will also learn new stuff, as will fox. You decide to say "mk will not figure out new combos or DI out of anything". Awesome, do you really hate this idea because you've tested it out, or because you like to debate? you know there's a hall for that right....

Proof there shall be, however I, like most of the smash community can't afford a Capture card. Hopefully some other peeps will help out with more vids as well.

I don't hate the idea. Even if I LOVED the idea, I would want to test people's belief in it. If I were to suggest we play Giant Brawl because everyone is too big to ledge camp effectively, then we might have some fun.

I'd love to see some proof. Hell, if you can produce some in the form of replay files, I'd even record and upload it for you if you can't do it yourself.

I'd be very interested to see what can ripple from such a simple change.

 

[Ripple]

actually tesh, killing earlier is not the same buff for everyone. characters who have a reliable and safe kill move are given a little more favor than other characters boost namely Fox's up-smash. if a character can consistently land a kill move, they seem to get slightly better than those who have kill moves that are still hard to set up.

fox still has amazing damage racking capabilities. Up-tilt is safer at low %. laser is unaffected. hell, fox has to get MK up to 70% before a grab release up smash. or just 80% normally. and with increased knockback, dair is safer on hit which means dair > whatever is possible much sooner.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i do believe ripple also mentioned a few other things about DDDs infinites...idk maybe he can bring them up i kinda forgot what he said about them

Not what I'm talking about. well not exactly.

There are other issues being brought up, however the "MK is nerfed" issue is one that people are either hyping or saying. So really his previous comments or even talk about MK aren't unfounded when the issue is quite important when "Balance" is an issue people say is fixed.

Also where did Piplup go. D=

actually tesh, killing earlier is not the same buff for everyone. characters who have a reliable and safe kill move are given a little more favor than other characters boost namely Fox's up-smash. if a character can consistently land a kill move, they seem to get slightly better than those who have kill moves that are still hard to set up.

fox still has amazing damage racking capabilities. Up-tilt is safer at low %. laser is unaffected. hell, fox has to get MK up to 70% before a grab release up smash. or just 80% normally. and with increased knockback, dair is safer on hit which means dair > whatever is possible much sooner.

While it's reliable, it's not safe on block or when spot dodged.

 

[Cherry64]

While it's reliable, it's not safe on block or when spot dodged.

Are there ANY smash attacks that are safe on block or Spot dodge?

 

[Pierce7d]

GnW's Usmash has 6 frames of cooldown with a massive priority hitbox.

 

[Cherry64]

GnW's Usmash has 6 frames of cooldown with a massive priority hitbox.

Are you serious? I didn't know it was that good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that guy metaknight has a really good f smash i hear...

 

[SuSa]

While it's reliable, it's not safe on block or when spot dodged.

That is strawmanning. Reliable (in Brawl terms) means it's easier to land than most other kill moves.


Example of a reliable KO move:
Snake's Utilt

Example of a KO move (albeit not that reliable)
Mario's Fsmash


So while both kill earlier, Snake's utilt gets a larger boost than Mario's fsmash due to it's reliability. (Which is more accurately coined "ease of landing")


:leek:

 

[JOE!]

so, did that tourney ever take off?

and can i somehow join if not too late? <.< >.>

 

[Cherry64]

so, did that tourney ever take off?

and can i somehow join if not too late? <.< >.>

It's today I believe. i should prolly get on AiB though <.<

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=10841

 

[EPsilon933]

It's today I believe. i should prolly get on AiB though <.<

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=10841

Where's Nit? Where's the bracket? What's supposed to happen right now?

 

[JOE!]

Where's Nit? Where's the bracket? What's supposed to happen right now?

this

ten characters

 

[Luxor]

2. the 1.1 DR causes characters that are hit by a banana to trip farther. ( and get up faster?)

3.5 I can almost guarantee that Fox will counter MK in this version.

5. WE KNOW WE KNOW WE KNOW ALREADY! WE ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS! WE ARE NOT ADVOCATING IT YET

2. No, you won't get up faster from a trip, trip frames are hardcoded. You'll stay on the ground for just as long as always.
3.5. I hope so.
5. Good. c:

imo anything that makes sdi better stronger or easier, absolutely ***** any abilitys fox has.

SDI isn't better or stronger. In some cases you have an extra frame to SDI compared to regular 1.0, but that's pretty inconsequential. You don't go farther from SDI either. Assuming 1.1 helps with Fox's Dair combos and stuff... he could be pretty scary.

GnW's Usmash has 6 frames of cooldown with a massive priority hitbox.

Sadly, it has 10 frames of cooldown. It's still ridiculous though

 

[Cherry64]

Where's Nit? Where's the bracket? What's supposed to happen right now?

I have no idea. This might not work out

 

[Ussi]

too bad, i was finally hoping to play some 1.1 -.-

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

If someone wants. I'll run the 1.1 WiFi tourney in like 20-40 mins.

Just take the time to let all the AiB'rs that were interested to play know.

EDIT: Just get a hold of me on AIM: MdrnDayMercutio and I'll whip up some rules and shiz.

 

[Cherry64]

If someone wants. I'll run the 1.1 WiFi tourney in like 20-40 mins.

Just take the time to let all the AiB'rs that were interested to play know.

EDIT: Just get a hold of me on AIM: MdrnDayMercutio and I'll whip up some rules and shiz.

I'mm down for this.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I'll go make the AiB page and set it to start at 9.

 

[Cherry64]

and what is your time now? I'm at 6:30 where I am.

 

[EPsilon933]

and what is your time now? I'm at 6:30 where I am.

East coast is 8:23 time.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=10911

Yeah, 9 est

 

[Ussi]

Post a link in the old 1.1 AiB tourney page

 

[JOE!]

so yeah, yoshi is definatley ALOT better

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS' down smash is safe on block most of the time. It has -5 advantage. If ZSS buffers a jab, it can't be beaten (for most characters, you can simply dtilt which is also safe on block).

 

[Tesh]

So shield stun and shield push are increased when to play this on wifi?

 

[Ussi]

from my experience yes, because on wifi the % of moves increases.

 

[Juushichi]

Does anyone want to do some 1.1 wifi today?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That is strawmanning. Reliable (in Brawl terms) means it's easier to land than most other kill moves.


Example of a reliable KO move:
Snake's Utilt

Example of a KO move (albeit not that reliable)
Mario's Fsmash


So while both kill earlier, Snake's utilt gets a larger boost than Mario's fsmash due to it's reliability. (Which is more accurately coined "ease of landing")


:leek:

Alright you got me on this one.

 

[Crow!]

So I played a fair amount of 1.1 Damage Ratio this weekend. I am nonplussed.

Overall, the change to the game is very small. It does help some characters, particularly those of the low tiers whose combos previously were just a tad too weak to flow together nicely. It likewise hurts other characters, by making their strings go from having just enough knockback to string together nicely to having just too much.

The trouble is that the amount a move is either improved or made less relevant does not in general seem to be related to how good the character with that move originally was; were there an obvious, negative correlation between ordinary character goodness and character improved-ness under 1.1, you could say it pretty clearly helped balance the game. Instead, the characters who benefit most are kind of randomly selected.

Now, the characters who benefit most do tend to be the cooler characters rather than the more straightforward ones, which may well lead to a game which is overall more fun. Speaking exclusively competitively, however, I'm not convinced from what I've seen so far that it is a clear improvement.

 

[Ripple]

I don't know if you should even bother anymore crow! it was found out that that damage changes when playing on wifi and thus also affects shield stun/lag/push. but when you aren't playing on wifi the damage does not change.

there is no way we could implement this if it was a different game on wifi than from normal

 

[•Col•]

I don't know if you should even bother anymore crow! it was found out that that damage changes when playing on wifi and thus also affects shield stun/lag/push. but when you aren't playing on wifi the damage does not change.

there is no way we could implement this if it was a different game on wifi than from normal

>implying that WiFi is played exactly the same as offline in 1.0

Seriously though, I dunno what the big deal is if 1.1 is a little different on WiFi...

People who play online only play for a few reasons... Either to just have fun, to get comfortable playing against actual people rather than computers, or to get KINDA familiar in a matchup against a particular character. All of which would still be possible if we changed the DR to 1.1.