Announcing Retirement+giving up rights to both the guide and this thread

[Mario_ 101]

Just updated OP. Yeah sorry that I've been taking a long time to update this. It's just that things just keep coming up IRL for me that keep me from this. Anyways I figured I'd throw in Peach for the discussion for the heck of it.

 

[vato_break]

bumpity bump bump

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I just looked over a few things on the first post....some of the stuff isn't exactly accurate....


Just sayin'

 

[Mario_ 101]

↑ It's because I've had very little to go on in the past weeks since most of the discussions had very little participation. Whatever strikes you as wrong just post it on here.

 

[Matt07]

Bump (Mario_101 said it was alright to bump this)...next character please?

Let's try and get some discussion going people.

 

[vato_break]

Vs ic's, I suggest smashville since you can camp them very well.Any other stages with platforms would be suffice as well.

 

[Matt07]

^That, somewhere with platforms, avoid FD at all costs. Uuh you can try Rainbow Cruise if it's not banned, Nana would probably be easy to gimp on that stage, and they probably have trouble chaingrabbing on it too. Also avoid Norfair/Brinstar because lava will save them a lot. I don't know if they even would CP that stage anyways.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Actually Norfair is a good cp vs IC's. Their chaingrabbing there is minimized greatly, due to the short length of the platforms. And if you play right they'll have trouble just landing a grab on you! The lava and other stage hazards also limit their ability to chaingrab for long periods of time. They can't do much on this stage if you think about it, but Mario can. Ice climber's aerial game fails, and Mario's exceeds, especially on this stage. So yeah they're very prone to being juggled here. Trust me I've used this vs. some IC's and it worked out very well. IMO this is the best stage to cp vs. them.

 

[UberMario]

For ICs I usually pick DP, RC, and FD. (though you better run to the opposite side at all costs when they're together.)

 

[Matt07]

Delfino Plaza? That doesn't seem like a good stage, I mean they have infinite you all the way to the blast zones if your on certain parts of the stages, and they have plenty of mobility there.

Hmm thanks Mario_101, I'll try it next time vs them .

 

[Teh Future]

If you guys can play on Brinstar I would suggest going there, ICs are really bad as usually we can easily deal with people on platforms by upairing them(which is easily go through anything mario has btw) but the platforms on Brinstar are situated perfectly against them.

Despite playing Mario myself I have no idea how he does on this stage. Still you are Mario and are most likely going to win a set vs ICs by knowing the matchup and playing better rather than stage counterpicking, since Mario doesn't really shine on any counterpicks (imo I guess)

I dont really know if Norfair is a good CP or not. the majority of ICs players will not having any trouble CGing mario on this stage and the only thing that would mess them up is the lava (and this isn't the best way to avoid getting CGed lol). Saying ICs air game is bad is completely ignorant and shows you dont really kow what you're talking about. If Mario gets inside he can combo them but he will have trouble doing this. If you do CP norfair make sure ICs do not maintain control of the bottom platform or you will loose, and watch out for upsmash killing at low percents on the higher platforms.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Brinstar is probably the best stage overall against the ICs if you know how to abuse it. There is wacky terrain, which can help you with D-air mixups (D-air -> B-air when moving down terrain is sexy). Platforms help you camp the ICs. Lava screws up the ICs. Small skybox helps you KO them earlier (large skybox sizes don't really help you against good ICs when they grab and 0-death you).

Otherwise, basically any stage not named FD is ok. Just avoid FD and you'll be fine. Sorta.

 

[Mario_ 101]

I dont really know if Norfair is a good CP or not. the majority of ICs players will not having any trouble CGing mario on this stage and the only thing that would mess them up is the lava (and this isn't the best way to avoid getting CGed lol). Saying ICs air game is bad is completely ignorant and shows you dont really kow what you're talking about. If Mario gets inside he can combo them but he will have trouble doing this. If you do CP norfair make sure ICs do not maintain control of the bottom platform or you will loose, and watch out for upsmash killing at low percents on the higher platforms.

It IS a good cp goddangit. They can't CG you here if you don't get grabbed, which isn't that hard on norfair because of the terrain. And they can't chainthrow you for long unless they know how to do the "turn around." But if you do get grabbed it should only be like one or two times on this stage, otherwise... YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG! Basically you should play hard to get, and when they slip up or make themselves vunerable, you swoop in and get them. Platforms on this stage help greatly because of Mario's aerial game (up air barrage, anyone?).

Look at it this way. You're Mario and are much much agile than your opponent. You are on a stage where you can perfectly demonstrate this, because of the way the terrain is. You play hard to get, campy defensive sorta thing when you are above or near the Ice Climbers, and use your agility to your advantage and abuse the ledges. Because of you being above them or out of reach it is very hard for them to land a grab necessary for chainthrowing. So their grab game is basically eliminated from the equation of the matchup. All they have left is a bad air game and an ok ground game i guess.

Mario will be able to rack up a lot of damage if he is on a platform below the foe. And if somehow the Ice Climbers get the platform below you the match isn't over by far at all. All it means is they can abuse their aerials and up smash with little chance of getting hit, and if you SPACE YOURSELF well and predict your opponent it shouldn't be an issue at all. How you get to the Ice climbers if they are below you is by either fireball camping, or if that doesn't work, then you go down yourself cautiously by going to the ledge, then abusing Mario's amazing ledge game to come back up and hit them, or fall from the air cape->d air, or airdodge-> d smash or something like that. You clearly don't understand Mario vs. IC's on Norfair. I know all this because I play on that stage a lot of the time and I have plenty of experience there.

Is that enough to satisfy you or should I go through with a list of all the advantages and things Mario has on Norfair?

 

[Teh Future]

lol I said I dont kow if its a good CP, not that its bad. If you get grabbed "only one or two times" then its more than likely one or two of your stocks. Norfair platforms do not mess up our CGs against anyone thats not a heavyweight.

If we get below you and maintain stage control then you are going to be eating hella upairs which rack damage extremely quick. we dont need CGs to win.

It very well may be a good CP vs ICs if you are comfortable playing there but Brinstar is an easier stage to play on as Mario if you are not used to Norfair.

 

[Mario_ 101]

lol I said I dont kow if its a good CP, not that its bad. If you get grabbed "only one or two times" then its more than likely one or two of your stocks. Norfair platforms do not mess up our CGs against anyone thats not a heavyweight.

If we get below you and maintain stage control then you are going to be eating hella upairs which rack damage extremely quick. we dont need CGs to win.

It very well may be a good CP vs ICs if you are comfortable playing there but Brinstar is an easier stage to play on as Mario if you are not used to Norfair.

It's all up to the player whether or not he gets grabbed or not. Mario could get grabbed on Brinstar and the same CG thing would happen anyways. I'm just saying that it's less likely to happen on Norfair.

I still disagree with the IC's below thing. Only a dumb Mario would take more than a few hits from that. The Mario has to space, predict, and shield/roll/ect. and it shouldn't be an issue. Then the Mario gets to the ledge below, and if he has a good ledge game he shouldn't have too much trouble getting up without being punished. Your logic is assuming that just because the Ice Climbers are below Mario that he'll take a bunch of damage. Only an inexperienced Mario would take more damage from something like that than he should.

Mario also has cape **** on Norfair, his FLUDD can be used to seperate IC's or push them into stage hazards, Mario has better mobility on this stage than that of the IC's, Mario has amazing ledge options here, he can fireball camp foes somewhat, and the platforms are very good for his aerial game.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Mario would get ***** on neutrals like Final Destination, Smashville, and possibly Yoshi's Island by Ice Climbers. Mario would have better chance at surviving in Battlefield. For counterpicks, I'll say Castle Siege. Abuse platforms, fireballs, and aerials and touch the ground. On the lava part, I'll just spam and camping and stay in air.

 

[UberMario]

@matt and lil gerald:

I know, it's just I have an easier time air camping against Ice Climbers on platformless (or almost platformless) stages. Maybe it's just the fact that I think I haven't battled a truly great IC that leads me to this stance.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Mario would get ***** on neutrals like Final Destination, Smashville, and possibly Yoshi's Island by Ice Climbers. Mario would have better chance at surviving in Battlefield. For counterpicks, I'll say Castle Siege. Abuse platforms, fireballs, and aerials and touch the ground. On the lava part, I'll just spam and camping and stay in air.

IDK about castle siege. I mean the first part of the level seems good, but when it goes to the second part it becomes a walkoff, which is not good at all (they can chaingrab you until you die from getting to the walkoff in case you didn't know). And the 3rd section of the level is basically a tilting final destination.

 

[-Sensei-]

Against Ice Climbers, I would counterpick Brinstar. As stated by others, the wacky terrain helps. Also, you can cape **** off the lava while it's rising, though it's hard to do. I'd stay away from Castle Siege, only because of the Ice Block Infinite that can be done on the walk offs on the sides.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Yeah, thats true, but on 2nd part, abuse the platforms so hard until it goes to the 3rd part and try to have stage control of that part. 3rd part is like FD, I'll just aerial spam and camp air or edgeguard camp w/ aerials and fireballs.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Summary:

Stages to choose: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Battlefield, Lylat, and other stages with platforms without walkoffs?
Not to choose: Final Destination

Moving onto R.O.B.

IMO YI brawl and Lylat are great because of the platforms and the fact that the ceilings are high so R.O.B. can't get his verticle kills. Maybe Mansion too... but i haven't tried that on R.O.B. yet so I don't know.

Also I think Halberd and Frigate Orpheon should be avoided. ESPECIALLY JAPES!!!!!!1

 

[Kanzaki]

Take ROB to Battlefield. Go Lylat if they ban BF.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Battlefield is obvious. I don't like Lylat vs ROB actually since he can often camp you more effectively on this stage thanks to terrain shifts.

Halberd vs ROB imo is pretty good. Low ceiling helps you more in KOing him with Up-smash. Yeah, it helps his N-air a bit too, but I think Mario's U-smash still benefits more from this stage.

 

[BoTastic!]

Take rob anywhere but RC and Frigate.. you won..

 

[A2ZOMG]

BO X7, I don't know how you consistently win the ROB matchup lmao.

I think it's even honestly.

 

[-Sensei-]

Moving onto R.O.B.

IMO YI brawl and Lylat are great because of the platforms and the fact that the ceilings are high so R.O.B. can't get his verticle kills. Maybe Mansion too... but i haven't tried that on R.O.B. yet so I don't know.

Also I think Halberd and Frigate Orpheon should be avoided. ESPECIALLY JAPES!!!!!!1

Mansion is banned here in FL, but I would avoid that stage. R.O.B.'s laser can go through the pillars while Mario's fireballs can't. R.O.B. can outcamp the hell out of you on that stage.

As far as counterpicks, just take him anywhere with platforms. Preferably Battlefield or Yoshi's Island.

 

[JUDGE]

i would prefer lylat cruise just because of the platforms
just try to keep him above you and attack him with your upair, also full hoped nair is pretty good

his nair and dair come out much slower than marios aerials so it's hard for him to counter you
he will try to get some space and then use his nair/dair, pretty easy to read so....

bair for the kill or to send him offstage . he will try to recover high but you can easily send him downwards with fair(outranges his fair i think)
you can nao stage spike him very well


i would avoid FD just because there are no platforms and due to the great camping game of ROB and the big arena....yeah you guys know what am trying to say lol

 

[Matt07]

Everyone has basically spoken what I was going to suggest. Maybe don't go to Norfair either if it's legal. ROB can camp amazingly well there as well.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'll pick Brinstar, Lylat Cruise and Battlefield so I can **** him on platforms.

 

[JUDGE]

ok guys we have all the same opinion: stages with high celling and platforms.

mario 101 lets move on to the next char^^

 

[Mario_ 101]

I've fought quite a few ROBs on Norfair, Matt. It really isn't that bad, but it isn't that great either.

Anyways... Summary:
Stages to choose: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island Brawl, Lylat Cruise, Brinstar?, Halberd?
Not to choose: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, Final Destination?

Next character is D3

 

[Matador]

I normally choose Yoshis vs D3 players. It's extremely easy to space him on that stage if you know how to use the platform above you to avoid grabs. Fsmash kills come early as well here. The only bad thing about this stage is the potential for the ghost platforms offstage to screw up gimps, but the risk is pretty minimal; it's about the same chance as the platform helping you.

If that's banned, I go to Brinstar. I've personally fallen in love with that stage.

Ban Delfino/Castle Siege/any walkoffs.

 

[Matt07]

Wow, Matador just basically said everything in one post, lol. Next character xD, kidding.

Which one do you think be the better ban? Delfino or Castle Siege (as you only get one ban.) Myself, I'd ban Delfino because it's slightly easier to get "walk-off'd", but Castle Siege transformations, and second level you can both get grab'd off, but just stay on the upper platforms in the second room, and you'll be good.

Just want to hear what you guys would prefer to ban.

 

[Mario_ 101]

...Yeah I think Delfino is more worthy of being banned than Castle Siege for this matchup.

 

[JUDGE]

i personally would ban castle siege cuz i feel very comfortable on delfino

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

there isn't a problem with castle siege....on the second part of the transformation you shouldn't be spending your time fighting DDD....you should spend your time running around on the platforms....

Defino has more CG options for DDD there are 2 or 3 parts of the level that have walk offs and the rest have walls to infinite you on

 

[BoTastic!]

Monk is right. You can actually fight DDD on Siege.

I actually hate facing DDD on Yoshis. I take him to norfair.

 

[Matador]

I actually hate facing DDD on Yoshis. I take him to norfair.

Really?

I dunno, I personally love the platform and the early horizontal kills since it's easy to land them on your garden variety D3 player. If you use the platform right, you can provide a ton of safe pressure and avoid the grabs pretty easily at long as you're not trying to fireball camp.

For example, if we're both below the platform, I'm free to SH Dair into his shield, then DJ Uair onto the platform with minimal lag.

If I'm on the platform and he's below, I can fall through and space a Bair, or cape before I hit the ground to bait and punish a shieldgrab/Utilt.

If he's on the platform and I'm underneath, I can **** his shield with SH dairs and Uairs safely.

It may just be me though. It's the only neutral that doesn't suck for us vs D3 besides BF, and he's not bad there either IIRC.

 

[BoTastic!]

Really?

I dunno, I personally love the platform and the early horizontal kills since it's easy to land them on your garden variety D3 player. If you use the platform right, you can provide a ton of safe pressure and avoid the grabs pretty easily at long as you're not trying to fireball camp.

For example, if we're both below the platform, I'm free to SH Dair into his shield, then DJ Uair onto the platform with minimal lag.

If I'm on the platform and he's below, I can fall through and space a Bair, or cape before I hit the ground to bait and punish a shieldgrab/Utilt.

If he's on the platform and I'm underneath, I can **** his shield with SH dairs and Uairs safely.

It may just be me though. It's the only neutral that doesn't suck for us vs D3 besides BF, and he's not bad there either IIRC.

Those platforms kinda limit your recovering options.. making ddd even easier to edgeguard and pressure you. This stage is actually good for DDD. You can zone, juggle, and not be affected by the chaingrab at all on norfair. It's a much better stage.

 

[Matador]

I've never tried Norfair, so I wouldn't know. I've never CP'd that stage before, lol.

Sounds like a solid CP though. As far as neutrals go, Yoshi's is probably mine for D3, with BF in second.