At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

[zaf]

It simply knocks them back slightly on airborne opponents as zair doesn't have enough KB to tumble, at least not at this level of hitstun (it tumbled more consistently in RC1 due to the hitstun constant being higher).

thats for airborne chars, what about grounded ones?

 

[VietGeek]

knockback is affected by damage percents, it won't send into tumble naturally due to low knockback until higher percents.

Like in vB, zair could actually force a tech, but it had to be at like 170%+

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I haven't seen any changes with individual character jump startup lag, normal landinglag, etc. Some of the small, but unattended stuff. Would that be worth looking into?

 

[VietGeek]

you probably won't see a few frames difference, but sure, if you insist, feel free to look at landing lag. ^_^

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

you probably won't see a few frames difference, but sure, if you insist, feel free to look at landing lag. ^_^

I mean, just look at Bowser. His startup on jump and normal landinglag are kinda high, so he feels slow around jumping. Decreasing those might make him a bit too fast in his aerial game, but I always felt it was worth tweaking a bit, even if he needs to be sorta slow.

I believe because of normal landing lag frames you can't really do anything during them, but I might be wrong, someone confirm.

I messed around with his jump startup and decreasing it actually seems to make him noticeably faster IMO. Dunno.

Another thing that could be looked at is squatting time. Just throwing ideas around. xD

 

[Roxas215]

Played for like 4 hours tonight with my crew. Everyone loved it. Even people who hated it before! Great job Cape!!!!


One question though? Was Ic's Dthrow cg removed???

And i dont know what it is about DDD. Don't know if he was buffed/Less Hitstun-Hitlag/ Or whatever it is but DDD wasn't this good before. Now he a beast.

I still believe Ivy is bottom 5 but i do think that she is fine the way she is now. Just from her moveset there isn't much u can do that wouldn't make her broken(Overbuff her leaves/Multiple Up B) So im fine with how ivy is now!

 

[Glick]

Original post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9122078&postcount=310

You can grab attacks and suffer damage in the process? This is clearly broken. Especially compared to melee, where the attack you're grabbing wouldn't even hit; the grabbox just plain outprioritized the hitbox. I admit it looks rather silly to get smashed in the face and still be standing there while holding your opponent, but the fact of the matter is brawl is actually harsher on the grabber than melee was.

Er... I wasn't talking about melee. Just because it was in melee doesn't mean that justifies it being in brawl+...
By that logic: It wasn't fair in melee, it's still not fair in brawl either.

Also: You jump infront of nesses PK thunder to make him unable to recover and he dies. Certainly the extra damage you suffered wasn't worth the stock you just took from him....

You can grab someone when they're blocking? You mean like in every fighting game ever? Yes. You can grab someone while they're blocking. This makes blocking more dangerous, and prevents players from just camping in their shields all day. If you get grabbed out of your shield, you should be dealing with some serious punishment.

You can grab someone when they're blocking? You mean like in every fighting game ever?
And tech the grab... The normal person to person grab shouldn't be a large part of individual combos in any fighting game. This doesn't include special throws.

This makes blocking more dangerous, and prevents players from just camping in their shields all day
That's what sheild weakening does. You already can't camp your sheild all day.
Not saying that grabbing sheilds is a bad thing. It's in perfect logic. I don't know why your making that a point of your argument.

The game is already heavily offensive. What do we accomplish by making a grab lead to death 100% of the time when they are so easy to pull off? Isn't someone having to work for their kills essentially make this game harder? That's a big problem that B+ has.

Running grabs in brawl+ are still mostly inferior to JC grabs in melee. They're laggy and punishable if you miss. They're an offensive grab, but they're not a safe grab. I'm actually having trouble thinking of a character that doesn't have something they can do out of a spotdodge against a running grab.

Still not talking about melee.
Running grabs was just an example of a variation the grabs have. Running grabs isn't the OFFENSIVE grab. It's just a different type of grab that is called for under the situation. A sheild/crouch canceled grab can be just as effective.

Shieldgrabbing is far less effective in brawl+, due to the higher shieldstun. Shieldgrabbing shouldn't honestly ever happen against someone that knows how to space. If you screw up pressuring someone's shield and leave yourself in their grab range with a high enough frame disadvantage to be grabbed... you should be punished.

If your talking about melee again, that's not necessarily true.
If you're talking about brawl, well duh. Brawls sheild grabbing was ********.
And if you really think that sheild grabs shouldn't happen at high level play(presumably the people that can space), I think it's time for you to go to a tournament. Seriously.

and again, I'm not saying that sheild grabbing is broken. AT ALL. What I'm saying, it's not VERY hard to sheild grab somebody(even at high level play). That shouldn't lead to a 100% guaranteed death.

Correct. This makes grabs much more reliable as a form of damage output. But it doesn't break them. The difficulty in landing a grab against someone who knows what they're doing keeps them balanced. Smash has always been more grab-centric than most fighters, but who ever said that's a bad thing?

I DO.
THAT IS A BAD THING.
If grabs are extremly powerful then grabbing should be hard to do (like in smash64(try sheild grabbing somebody))
If grabs are weaker then grabbing can be easier to do(Like in GSH2...)

That is BASIC balancing. The smash you propose is an unbalanced version of smash. Just because it was in melee, doesn't mean it wasn't unfair. Melee was not perfect, and if you want a game that's exactly like melee... Maybe your heart belongs in project M. I'm really having trouble hearing this stuff coming out of a WBR member. Have you guys really been in charge of fundamental changes like this?

The fact that you can get grabbed multiple times in a match and barely take any punishment for it is scrub friendly.

Uh. No. Grabs to tech chases gives the person your grabbing more options. However, you should be able to follow up with a tech chase if you are more skilled then your opponent. Widening the gap between bad and good players....

Grabs should lead to short combos at worst. But all throws to techchases are honestly unfair (some exceptions on a character to character basis). Grabbing someone to throw them into a move -> death is completely fair.

The whole play on words thing didn't really work out for you here.
All throws to techchases are unfair? but throwing someone with a 100% chance of killing them at high percents is?

On a more serious note, different characters have different eases of grabbing. A character like fox might come across grabs very easily, having two aerials that combo into it, as well as being very speedy and thus being able to punish more things with a running grab.

I don't see how a weaker grab-->move makes this any different. All these grab changes are being done on a character to character basis as it is...
and fox and sonic players sheild cancel their grabs for a reason.

Forcing him to go for techchases off of a grab might be fair, but characters like ganon do not grab others nearly as easily. I admit not every character needs guaranteed combos off of throws, but it's nothing that will break a character on its own.

Squirtle? Jigglypuff? Zelda?
Ganon was a bad example. His side b is a special grab. How often do you see that move land in high level play? If you say not often, you're wrong.
A lot of characters who have bad grab ranges can still use a low risk move(a jab) into a grab. Which pretty much shuts down that argument.

A character might have a throw that guarantees a followup against a certain character from 0% all the way up to 115%, but after 115%, the opponent starts getting sent too far away for it to lead into anything, and their uair doesn't start killing until 100%. This creates a small 15% window where this combo is a guaranteed kill. This isn't too unusual for something like this to happen with uthrows and dthrows, as they begin sending a foe too high to follow up after a while. While it is possible to string a uair in that situation, the opponent is presented with an opportunity to escape once they reach a high enough percent. This then creates a new window where the character cannot combo into anything, and is forced to just keep hitting you until their easier-to-land moves actually do start killing. Essentially, melee marth syndrome. If marth doesn't gimp you, after a certain point, he stops being able to combo into his kill moves, making it possible for you to live very long against a marth. Unfortunately, good players aren't going to let you do that very often, so it's not something you see too frequently.

Melee marth syndrome isn't something you should see in an optimistic way for a balancing aspect of B+. It's actually a joke.

As for as I'm concerned. A ganon player can tech chase a person at 100% and kill them and tech chase a person at 300% and kill them. Both times requiring skill.

Ganon thrives on edgeguarding,

...

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Just wanted to pop in and say this codeset is pretty good. You guys did a real good job with this one, and I just may do B+ singles at Pound. Only problem is I can't play Samus anymore. I have other characters that do way better so I'm not gonna force myself to play her just because she has a sick Iron Man texture.

Dedede is amazing.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

You choose now to not play Samus anymore? That's quite the shame. Crouch Bomb Canceled Missile spam is just too rapid and sexy...so are full jump double missiles...among others things.

Anyway, this set is good enough to become the next official build, to do what RC1 was intended to do, once the minor mistakes are fixed. I can't wait to see the official's release.

 

[goodoldganon]

Crouch Bomb Canceled Missiles? I have no idea what that entails but I'll have to try it since I haven't liked Brawl or Brawl+ Samus since day 1 and she was my Melee Main.

 

[Ryose]

You choose now to not play Samus anymore? That's quite the shame. Crouch Bomb Canceled Missile spam is just too rapid and sexy...so are full jump double missiles...among others things.

Anyway, this set is good enough to become the next official build, to do what RC1 was intended to do, once the minor mistakes are fixed. I can't wait to see the official's release.

Agreed. Missile spam is sexy. I can't put my finger on it but something feels off about her jumps. Specifically the SH. If anyone could clarify exactly what is different if anything it'd be much appreciated.

Once the last few kinks are worked out I would be very satisfied with this build as the next official one as well.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'd like to try Samus with the next level down on SH height. I really think that is the missing piece to her puzzle.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

She can do almost everything that Melee Samus can do, now. She's slowly reaching that (IMO, ideal) Samus.
In this, you can do stuff like the full jump double missiles (or double jump after the first to get a triple missile); something I truly missed from the Melee Samus days. But since homing missiles come out faster than smash ones in B+ (as opposed to being slower in Melee), you can also mix in homing ones where and whenever needed. I particularly find full jump homing then smash missiles to be effective in covering your front, tremendously limiting the opponent's approach options.

And to easily do the CBCM (much shorter to type... ) rapidly, I now use b-sticking with Samus. (And this is faster than simply SHing missiles, since the bomb hop is significantly lower.)
Hold diagonal back-down and press B to lay a crouched bomb; then missile to cancel it at the desired time; then B again after landing, while still holding downwards; etc., and you will stay relatively in the same place for every missile, while shooting smash missiles. If you wait until the very last moment to missile, you can even retreat a tiny bit every time. Holding straight down, would instead let you approach forward slowly with smash missiles. Diagonal forward-down lets you quickly approach with homing missiles to lead your approach. A variation of downward angles and missile release timing will let you adjust how much you move after every missile.
It's quite a shame that a land-canceled smash missile will always be higher than standing ones, so it'll go over the heads of short characters.

 

[Izaniki]

Wiichuck works fine for me. You use the sideways wiimote?

No, I use Wiichuck, just too used to saying Wiimote only :x But yeah, like, the control sets I made before work fine, but I tried to make a new one and it wouldn't let me specify which smash I set to the D-pads

 

[Alphatron]

That's odd. I'll try to make a new control scheme when I can to see if this happened to me too. It's probably a mistake.

Also, while I don't agree with leaf, throws that net unavoidable combos at really low percent but stop quickly after that are fine. Current Kirby dthrow doesn't do this unless its a fast faller.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

To chime in on the whole Leaf/Glick argument. I think grabs are fine where they are. The reason? They are used exactly how they should be. On defense, you an shield grab to punish sloppy attacks. On offense, you can use them to punish an overly defensive player. This, like every other aspect of the game has a dual purpose. Look at attacking. On offense we have combo strings and spikes and on defense we have pokes and WoPs and sex kicks and all sortsa stuff (yes I know that these can be used offensively too).

You don't see people spamming grabs over and over again because if they did they would lose. Granted I fall prey to a Lucario shield grab more often than I would like when I play with marth. However, as soon as I switch to Jiggs, Shiek, Dorf, or anyone else that has a different spacing game that problem disappears. Grabbing is used about 1/3rd of the time, and is a set up for combos, an escape from pressure, and a kill at correct percentages. So its a versatile universal character capability that is only a portion of the overall strategy of the game. This seems about right to me.

IMHO I like the work that is being done on grabs and I think we are in a good place right now. I haven't seen any massive grab complaints at the events I have gone to, nor have I heard any in my close group of friends either.

 

[JCaesar]

I think throw->kill combos are ok as long as the timing is tight and you have to call DI, and they don't kill ridiculously low. RC1 Squirtle uthrow, Ganon dthrow, Falcon dthrow, etc, were pretty ********.

Basically, they're fine now.

 

[proteininja]

I feel that some attacks still slide you in shield stun too far for you to shield grab, and that if my opponent is sloppy and lands where i used to be I should have gotten a shield grab. Basically I would like it if Bowser had more friction. He is fat after all.

 

[proteininja]

Also, I just had a crazy idea. Has anyone ever wanted to try air shielding instead of airdodging? it would be the same as on the ground except you couldnt side step or roll. I think it would be fun to try. Shield pressure would be so much more insane, but atleast you couldn't air grab. UNLESS YOUR BOWSER! lol alright maybe i just want bowser buffs.

Edit: but seriously how wierd would that be.

 

[Daakun]

I still say Ganon's new dthrow is bleh.
Could have just had some more base knockback; make sure the opponent is always knocked far enough away good DI can let them escape.
Or just have it knock them back at a lower angle; less air means faster tech, having some air at all means even better chance to escape with DI, and it doesn't reduce Ganon to just tech chasing from dthrow.

It also makes it not the same exact thing as a sped up flame choke. >_>

 

[Daakun]

On the subject of shield sliding, any chance of making it so you don't slide off ledges?
I shield stuff in time only to get nudged ever so slightly into the air and get nailed by the second hitbox.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I still say Ganon's new dthrow is bleh.
Could have just had some more base knockback; make sure the opponent is always knocked far enough away good DI can let them escape.
Or just have it knock them back at a lower angle; less air means faster tech, having some air at all means even better chance to escape with DI, and it doesn't reduce Ganon to just tech chasing from dthrow.

It also makes it not the same exact thing as a sped up flame choke. >_>

Use U-throw if you want to follow up your grab with air-to-air attacks... At least that throw becomes relevant again.
More opportunities for Ganon to tech chase is a good thing since that's where the characters excels even though you still have to read their wake-up.

What you describe just sounds like CF's D-throw, though I can generally get Falcon Kick off that.

 

[MyLifeIsAnRPG]

Personally I like the amount you slide back when you shield. It makes it so that you don't get a shield grab off every time someone whiffs an attack and emphasizes proper spacing. Besides you can still sheild grab off attacks that are close range or poorly spaced, but a blocked smash gives you guys space, and many times gives you more than enough time to drop your shield and go in for the attack yourself.

 

[proteininja]

It can also slide you off a ledge where you subsequently get owned.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

How in the world is dthrow similar to choke besides it forcing you to the ground (besides the armor frames =P)?

Ganon has to be close, and doesn't have the pull back that choke does. Choke also has a bigger grabbox than regular grab iirc, but it's less safe. Dthrow is more reliable (of course more so in close range), but choke is very good for mixups and confusing the opponent. The pull back on it can also be very good for punishing baited approaches.

Dthrow is also untechable, too. And it spikes without the opponent grabbing the ledge, yet is meteor cancelable iirc. Damage too.

Question though: Is there any difference between the armor of regular grab during the beginning of the catch and Choke's?

 

[The Cape]

I still say Ganon's new dthrow is bleh.
Could have just had some more base knockback; make sure the opponent is always knocked far enough away good DI can let them escape.
Or just have it knock them back at a lower angle; less air means faster tech, having some air at all means even better chance to escape with DI, and it doesn't reduce Ganon to just tech chasing from dthrow.

It also makes it not the same exact thing as a sped up flame choke. >_>

I have actually said a good deal of things to this change throughout the thread. I tried to keep the old D throw and tried all kinds of angles and KBs. The move either CGed and gave really easy fair setups or it was useless. Thats just how it was.

This D throw compliments his game well because he can use the D throw to set up into tech chases with sideB from a sheild grab, or a punishment with a standard grab. Its a great compliment to his game since it allows Ganon to put his opponent on the ground and begin a tech chase that will allow him to build a good deal of damage and KO from it (chased fair) if he can predict and read well.

Also Guy: D throw IS techable.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ug I hate being a bother, but I have to idea why my B+ isnt working. I used the updatifier for homebrew. I put it in my apps folder and that went just fine. It worked on my homebrew and I got into the game from it. But then when I played, the gameplay was exactly the same. And my textures dont even work. Any idea why?

The only thing I can think affecting it is that when I tried to use the windows "nightly" one, it didnt work for some reason. I deleted the stuff it game in the root of the SD card but the "FitXXX.pac" is still in each character folder as a result of it. Do I have to do delete those too?

 

[Isatis]

No double/multi posting guys, hit the Edit button if you want to add on to your statement.

zeldspazz: do you have an SDHC card? (an SD card over 3GB)

 

[zeldspazz]

No double/multi posting guys, hit the Edit button if you want to add on to your statement.

zeldspazz: do you have an SDHC card? (an SD card over 3GB)

No my SD card is only 1GB

 

[Isatis]

Only thing I can come up with is use the Brawl+ Updatifier to update/install it, then hit Home on the Wiimote (or Start if using a GC controller), and go directly into Gecko OS from HBC itself and try to start the game from there. If it doesn't work, I'll try and have someone else chime in here to see if they can get it working for you.

The updatifier does need those PAC files to play Brawl+ though :/

 

[zeldspazz]

Thanks a lot Bionic. Ill try it and see if that works. Im thinking I might have deleted the whole codeset or something. If worst comes to worst Ill just restart the whole thing and figure it out from the beginning

 

[SymphonicSage12]

zeldspazz....do you have a folder on the root of your sd card called "codes", (no quotation marks), and does it contain a file called "RSBE01.gct" (no quotation marks again, obviously) ?

And are you U.S, P.A.L, or Japan?

 

[Deleted member]

While we're all on the discussion of grabs, is there superarmor on every character in B+ or just the slower grab/small grab ranges?

Because after a shielded hit, my opponent moves away due to shield stun, and I jab when they remove their shield to grab. I've also seen my well spaced aerials grabbed just when I enter range for their grab + superarmor to work. This leads to me getting grabbed and them taking damage.

I feel like this punishes skill and strategy. Wouldnt it be better to reward skillful approaches and changing strategy/mindgames with lower shield stun + more landing lag off certain aerials/moves to create depth in strategy and technical skill?

The overpowering offense created by shieldstun and hitstun punishes grabbing defensively. Especially when superarmor and very low aerial lag + high hitstun work v. the defender.

Though superarmor is both an offensive and defensive option, it doesnt seem right to give a character a free grab especially since each characters throw game is being improved dramatically.

----------

I like how grabs are being changed to more useful purposes though.

Just my 2 cent's worth.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

um...superarmor on grabs has been in since melee ...in fact, grabs were technically invulnerable (intangible) in melee (a.k.a not superarmor)...although I agree that the shieldstun needs to be fixed majorly. However, hitstun is fine. I would also like more hitlag


----sort of rant---

 

[bob-e]

While we're all on the discussion of grabs, is there superarmor on every character in B+ or just the slower grab/small grab ranges?

Because after a shielded hit, my opponent moves away due to shield stun, and I jab when they remove their shield to grab. I've also seen my well spaced aerials grabbed just when I enter range for their grab + superarmor to work. This leads to me getting grabbed and them taking damage.

I feel like this punishes skill and strategy. Wouldnt it be better to reward skillful approaches and changing strategy/mindgames with lower shield stun + more landing lag off certain aerials/moves to create depth in strategy and technical skill?

The overpowering offense created by shieldstun and hitstun punishes grabbing defensively. Especially when superarmor and very low aerial lag + high hitstun work v. the defender.

Though superarmor is both an offensive and defensive option, it doesnt seem right to give a character a free grab especially since each characters throw game is being improved dramatically.

All grabs have psudo super armor. If a grab connects on the exact frame that the grabber is hit, then it acts like the grabber has super armor. However, the armor only applies to an attack from the person you're grabbing, so it couldn't be used to go through any attack from any direction.

I really don't see a problem with it. Since it's only a 1 frame window, it's no worse than Melee power shielding.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

zeldspazz....do you have a folder on the root of your sd card called "codes", (no parentheses), and does it contain a file called "RSBE01.gct" (no parentheses again, obviously) ?

FYI...
This --» " is called a "quotation mark"
These --» ( ) are called "parentheses"

And it's not called super armor when you don't take damage at all (in the case of Melee), SS11. But yeah, it wasn't something the WBR "added" to B+, drpepper111. Also, hitstun, according to leftgreen, is actually the number that's actually off from the desired number. And personally, I would not want more hitlag. I think it's fine as it is. If we continue to add more hitlag, it'll get to the point of being like vBrawl, again...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hahaha sorry about that....


and yes, i know it's not superarmor if you don't take damage. Intangibility is like super armor + a bonus to me....

and in terms of hitlag... I was just thinking 80% from 60%...

 

[zeldspazz]

Hehe guys I somehow got it to work. Thank you all for your help though!

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

Since you guys are talking about throws and giving them all a use or something like that, are you ever going to make Marth's b-throw not suck terribly? Or are we just leaving that as is...? Also I think someone said to increase the traction on everyone sometime ago? I don't remember but if you do just make sure Luigi is still Luigi since sliding around and feeling really...loose...I guess you could say, is kinda his thing. The sets really good btw. Some things need to be adjusted a little imo, but otherwise enjoyable.

 

[Glick]

To chime in on the whole Leaf/Glick argument. I think grabs are fine where they are. The reason? They are used exactly how they should be. On defense, you an shield grab to punish sloppy attacks. On offense, you can use them to punish an overly defensive player. This, like every other aspect of the game has a dual purpose. Look at attacking. On offense we have combo strings and spikes and on defense we have pokes and WoPs and sex kicks and all sortsa stuff (yes I know that these can be used offensively too).

You don't see people spamming grabs over and over again because if they did they would lose. Granted I fall prey to a Lucario shield grab more often than I would like when I play with marth. However, as soon as I switch to Jiggs, Shiek, Dorf, or anyone else that has a different spacing game that problem disappears. Grabbing is used about 1/3rd of the time, and is a set up for combos, an escape from pressure, and a kill at correct percentages. So its a versatile universal character capability that is only a portion of the overall strategy of the game. This seems about right to me.

IMHO I like the work that is being done on grabs and I think we are in a good place right now. I haven't seen any massive grab complaints at the events I have gone to, nor have I heard any in my close group of friends either.

I think throw->kill combos are ok as long as the timing is tight and you have to call DI, and they don't kill ridiculously low. RC1 Squirtle uthrow, Ganon dthrow, Falcon dthrow, etc, were pretty ********.

Basically, they're fine now.

Yeah. I love what is being done with them in the newest build.

The reason why I even made that argument because leaf was trying to argue that it's going in the wrong direction.

The newest beta is the most balanced yet. I'm yet to see any flaws with it. (besides that stupid autosnap when hitting somebody thing, but that's not the betas fault)