BBR Weekly Character Discussion #1: Diddy Kong

[Praxis]

Kos-Mos has actually made a lot of points about the fact that he has never lost to a Diddy main, Gnes included.

Granted, he never did get to play ADHD in a tournament set, but it's still a very notable record.

I'd also like to point that I beat GDX at Genesis in pools with only a little prior Diddy experience. I just abused a couple things Kos-Mos had told me before the match. Peach <3's Diddy



As it turns out, GDX must not read the boards much, because then he tried counterpicking G&W on me, leading to a horrible slaughter with BoA (Lee Puff's brother) grinning ear to ear watching.

 

[Omni]

I understand that a lot of you think Diddy is overrated.

I guess the question is do you think he's overrated to not deserve the 3rd spot on the tier list? People rate him high as a character but if you think he's that overrated what other character do you think is qualified for the 3rd spot on the tier list?

Make sure you take into consideration performance at tournaments, viability due to bad match-ups or bad stages, and how well said character does against the top tiers.

 

[Omni]

i think my top 5 looks something like:

mk
snake
diddy
falco
wario

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'd put both Wario and Falco over Diddy. That's about it though. Frankly of the 4 other characters you mention, Diddy doesn't have an advantageous match up vs any single one of them. MK may actually be the best MU of the 4 (or possibly Wario, both characters I believe only have slight/negligible advantages over Diddy).

Diddy probably has more MUs not-in-his-favor than any character currently in the top 8 or so on the tier list. God bless MK and conservative stagelists or making it seem otherwise.

 

[OverLade]

Diddy is still 3rd just people thinking he'll pass Snake and or MK are crazy. I think Olimar/Wario could be top 5 but both are really underrepped because of grab release/gimps/camping. Imo there COULD be a national level Olimar player just nobody has taken him that far.

 

[Praxis]

I've always felt that Wario was good and underrated in the last tier list, but I had no leg to stand on as far as Wario player results.

But there hasn't been anything really spectacular from Diddy/Falco lately either, so...I dunno.

I feel Wario should be #3 on the tier list, but without Fiction, no Wario is performing well enough to justify that argument.



@ AlphaZealot...as a side note, keep in mind that:

Snake could, if you're pessimistic, be argued to lose to:
Metaknight, Dedede, Marth, Falco, Wario, Pikachu, Olimar

Falco could be argued to lose to:
Metaknight, Pikachu, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Wario (with CG)

Dedede could be argued to lose to:
Metaknight, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Falco, Olimar, Diddy

Diddy could be argued to be:
Metaknight, Snake, Falco, Wario, Marth, Peach

Metaknight could be argued to be:
Metaknight?

Similar numbers, barring the last one.

 

[DEHF]

I'm curious, how many of you know how to instant throw and actually use it vs diddy?

 

[OverLade]

I'm curious, how many of you know how to instant throw and actually use it vs diddy?

I do. I also use airdodge catch and Jab catch. A lot of the time just sidestepping the bananas works great though because they end up behind you though.

edit:
Dats jus me tho.

 

[Omni]

Sidestepping a banana is asking to be thrown.

Jab A catching is ******** good.

Z grabbing bananas that are on platforms or just anywhere is essential.

Dash grabbing doesn't work too well when I'm trying to pick up a banana that's not in my control. By dash grabbing I mean picking up a banana at the end of a dash animation. Maybe it's because MK has a rather lengthy initial dash start up.

What's instant throw? I probably know it but just don't call it that.

 

[OverLade]

Sidestepping a banana is asking to be thrown.

Jab A catching is ******** good.

Z grabbing bananas that are on platforms or just anywhere is essential.

Dash grabbing doesn't work too well when I'm trying to pick up a banana that's not in my control. By dash grabbing I mean picking up a banana at the end of a dash animation. Maybe it's because MK has a rather lengthy initial dash start up.

What's instant throw? I probably know it but just don't call it that.

Airdodge cancel throw. Catch with airdodge but throw with C stick before airdodge comes out.

 

[Omni]

Oh rly? Is that difficult to apply midmatch?

Against Diddy I just dair or fair banana tosses to catch them. Then follow up.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Diddy is like Fox in melee to a certain degree. He may be really **** good, but if you don't play him just right, you will get ***** pretty hard IMO. A couple of mistakes and you are done for..just like Fox of Melee. He doesn't have much leeweigh for mistakes, so he will often lose to many characters. But potentially and theoretically he is still 3rd best. That's what I mean when I say Diddy mains in practice will lose to a lot of characters and you won't see many top placing diddy's in tourney. I don't think its unreasonable to account for degree of difficulty in mastering the character when deciding the tier list. We aren't perfect creatures and the tier list if we were all perfect and flawless is different than the tier list as is fostered out of real tournament results.

There's a lot of characters Diddy will have a lot of close matches with that his character superirity won't make up for his mistakes the way it does for Marth, DDD, MK and Snake etc. His character I feel like always has to work for the win in like all circumstances, unlike these characters, who when faced with even a slightly worse player, their skill + the character itself will ensure victory. I think Diddy is 3rd best but because he has to work harder to earn run of the mill tournament victories against most of the cast, his placements will generally be lower than characters like Marth and IC. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Oh rly? Is that difficult to apply midmatch?

Against Diddy I just dair or fair banana tosses to catch them. Then follow up.

It's really easy. I have zero techskill and can do it if I feel like it. I don't do it a lot, because I usually get better stage control if I just hold onto the ammunition rather than toss it.

 

[T-block]

Yeah, picking them off platforms, or instantly throwing them back when they're thrown at you is easy. Instant throwing bananas that are on the ground is harder.

If you can catch with an air dodge, you only need to add in a C-stick direction before the air dodge comes out.

 

[AllyKnight]

European diddy willl **** me up OMG so scared.

 

[Marcbri]

There's actually quite a lot of top diddys in europe, there are 4 going to bushido that have good chances at placing top 8/16.

 

[DMG]

His banana toss IIRC takes 7 frames for it to first be able to hit someone, 8 being more realistic. This goes higher the further away you are obviously. Dunno what the distance to frame ratio is though.

 

[OverLade]

There's actually quite a lot of top diddys in europe, there are 4 going to bushido that have good chances at placing top 8/16.

There are good Diddy players in Europe?

 

[Praxis]

I'm curious, how many of you know how to instant throw and actually use it vs diddy?

I instant throw a lot, but I haven't had much opportunity to use it on any Diddy mains in the last few months.

I actually abuse it against Snake quite a bit though; keeps you from making accidental inputs if he makes you drop it.

 

[swordgard]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

 

[T-block]

I can't even SNL >_> But I do agree that most non-Diddy players have a long ways to go with bananas.

How many characters can SNL though? IIRC it's not that many... PSNL is a lot more, but it's really only practical on FD.

 

[swordgard]

I can't even SNL >_> But I do agree that most non-Diddy players have a long ways to go with bananas.

How many characters can SNL though? IIRC it's not that many... PSNL is a lot more, but it's really on practical on FD.

I meant PSNL actually.


And couldn't you fast fall through the plats? Pretty sure you could do it anywhere.

 

[T-block]

Nah... when you throw the banana down it hits the platform. I think it can be done in the middle of Battlefield too though. Diddy has it easier because he can SNL to get them to a certain position on the stage (and to bypass Smashville's moving platform to continue the infinite).

So yeah...really only practical on FD...and Pictochat.

 

[Dekar173]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

I do it all but I main Diddy XD

Mike was like WTF when I single naner locked him at devastation lmao.

 

[ShadowLink84]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually have done all of it.

I can do all of them EXCEPT the single banana lock.
I keep messing up the timing for it.

 

[AllyKnight]

Be also aware that Diddy's UP B is very easy to hit, which will most likely kill Diddy Kong at any %. I did kill ADHD at VERY low % dropping myself from the ledge with a nair, killing us both but I could have survived, at Showdown.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Be also aware that Diddy's UP B is very easy to hit, which will most likely kill Diddy Kong at any %. I did kill ADHD at VERY low % dropping myself from the ledge with a nair, killing us both but I could have survived, at Showdown.

Wouldnt a nade also work to knock him out of it?

 

[AllyKnight]

Yes I haven't tried because the timing might be harder and you have to be quick, but yeah it could definatly.

 

[DEHF]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

I'm able to do all of them, but I don't have the single banana lock down consistently.

 

[Espy Rose]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I can do all of that, actually.

Sonic has like, a jillion ways to KO Diddy out of a SNL.
Only problem is landing the **** thing.

 

[Marcbri]

There are good Diddy players in Europe?

Yep, try searching for matches of joannett88, istudying, neji and luigi_player. Also I've heard koukyn pis pretty good but I don't know much about him.

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

I can do all that.

I actually have a tournament viable diddy so it's not really strange xD

 

[Overswarm]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

I dooooooo





SBL is relaly hard and I can only do it in training though XD


I've liked the discussion so far.

Diddy definitely isn't 3rd best in the game with the current rules. I'd put Falco at 3rd with an LGL in place, without one I'd put Wario at 3rd.

 

[Sky`]

Imho

MK
Snake ( I guess)
Falco
Wario
Diddy.

But anyway, Sean and Michael Hey can do the Single Naner lock consistently, and Norcal's been practicing.

It's pretty hard to do, and I still have yet to see the practicality, but hey. 9B does it every tournament so... Zzz.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

MA (all scrubs other than Koolaid and Bizkit/Fatal)

your words are like daggers

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Honestly... I feel if we didn't have ADHD around, we would be looking at a possibility of Diddy falling a little bit. Sure, his banana control and ATs are amazing, but without a ton of KO potential or even a lot of people around that know the match-up extremely well, it's hard to say what placing he even deserves. He's definitely top 5 on the tier list, but I'm not entirely sure about 3rd without ADHD.

Looking at the match-up ratios, I could actually see Diddy falling below Marth, and probably hovering around either the number 4 or 5 spot. From there, it'd be really hard to say other characters deserve to be above him. I myself am still trying to learn more about Diddy, but from what I've seen so far, that's my conclusion. I'll have to do some more reading on it soon, though. ^_^;

 

[AllyKnight]

your words are like daggers

you dont count dazwa.

when is this suppose to be done? I feel like we've said everything about DIddy kong.

I do hate that Diddy's side b grab then release footstool in a hole in an instant kill usually LOL.

 

[Shaya]

Whilst Diddy may be [still] 3rd best in the game, he is most definitely a tier below MK and always will be.

It's hard for me to think of a character who could take the spot.
Falco? MAYBE.
Wario? mmmmm.... hard maybe.
Ice Climbers? a firm no from me (sorry swordgard, m'boy)
Marth? UGHHHHHHHHH... Well... ughh? I think highly of the guy... Sometimes I think it's possible... but I etch towards thinking Falco/Diddy are "more viable".

I honestly do believe players are still getting used to the character and item mechanics. It's silly to think that "omg games out 2 years, so everyone must be instantly pro at everything if they have any success at high level play!" HURRRRRR.

 

[Marc]

when is this suppose to be done? I feel like we've said everything about DIddy kong.

All discussions last a week, so I'll start up the new topics some time tomorrow.

 

[hunger!]

*read the thread*

Wario is NOT 3rd best praxis =P

He's...5th at best. but he's still bad. ill save that rant for when wario gets discussed. But i will tell you that since fiction stopped, people have learned how to fight against the stupid horrible character thus making him terrible. Ill save the rest for later lol.

but diddy i still feel is top 4 since he has so many options and can control opponents so well. I do believe that once more people start using instant throwing AGAINST diddy that he will fall and falco will become the 3rd best once again. The tier list should be MK, Snake etc. off results or w/e But imo, it's:
(top 6)
metaknight
falco
snake
diddy
ics
wario

 

[AvaricePanda]

How many of you actually catch bananas with A? Instant throw? Air dodge cancelled throw out of hitstun? Single banana lock?

I bet none of you actually does all of that.

I do that (I main Diddy) and a lot of good opponents I play do all of that.

But you reminded me about this when you mentioned the single banana lock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN8n-oLtge4

He has a pretty practical infinite on most of the cast that works on any stage that's flat on any part (so like every stage but Brinstar). The set-ups a bit safer than it looks as well; if this is shielded then Diddy can just land his auto-cancelled D-air and grab. Granted this can be reacted to but you have to react quickly.

But obviously if you get this trip a stock should be lost. I got the set-up I think twice last Saturday at tournament, I only really got to play pools and friendlies (had to leave before bracket) but I effed it up both times lol.

really though, Diddy mains are lazy as hell and like to put off and not learn things, so not many people have actually taken the effort of learning or trying it. I have like 70-80% consistency on this though and I haven't practiced it in a month, and when I did practice it it was only for like 20 minutes a few days. The only other characters that can pull off something like this with a similar set-up are ZSS and maybe Sheik.

The PSNL seems harder to realistically set up (and harder to do but that's just IMO). but tl;dr: Diddy has an infinite that can be realistically pulled off but people are lazy.

Diddy seems like he should drop, but I agree with Omni's past statements that he can still be a solid 3rd because he seems better than the people he's above.

As far as character representation goes at the moment, Diddy's 3rd.

Falco being above Diddy? I honestly think it depends on how you weigh match-ups. Falco counters more characters but has counters of his own (Pika and ICs). Diddy's match-ups are pretty even across the board. He has the worst match-ups against S-A tier in comparison to the other A tier characters, but his bad match-ups aren't that bad. I don't think he has a match-up worse than 6-4 or maybe even at 6-4. Peach? That match-up hasn't really been explored for a year, so it's hard to call. His disadvantages (such as MK, Snake, Wario, arguably Falco) don't seem as bad as 6-4s.

The only character I can see taking Diddy's 3rd spot other than maybe Falco is ICs. IMO on paper, ICs should be 3rd, but it's hard to determine realistically because of the lacking representation.

edit: this post is all over the place lol