BBR Weekly Character Discussion #1: Diddy Kong

[OverLade]

On saturday I learned Snake sucks and Diddy is definitely better >_>

 

[redrighthand]

I have no authority or tournament background to talk so whatsoever, so you can disregard this comment if you wish. But I think you are overestimating Other mains desire and motivation to learn banana techs to use against Diddy. Many players that aren't at the very top level have a hard time mastering their own character so I don't see many people putting hours and hours into getting ANOTHER character's ATs to 100% consistency.

I understand that those that are the cream of the crop of their own character may have the time and ability to get these techniques under their belt but those players only make-up a very small percentage (usually the winning percentage) of players at tournaments.

So if this great movement of other mains other than diddy learn banana control hasn't happened yet, when will it?

Cheers.

 

[TreK]

I do think that Peach and Wario have a greater banana game than Diddy. They're pretty much the only ones in the game.
However, Diddy has the tools to prevent those characters from even picking up a banana, let alone using that banana game.
And what's great about diddy, is that we find ways to push his potential a bit farther like twice a week and it's been like that for two years and a half. We keep finding those tools that make our opponents unable to use our bananas.
So yeah, better item games exist ; but no, it's not something that scares diddies. Not even the ones that suck, like me... That says a lot.

 

[Gnes]

wtf is this thread doing here....

 

[FelixTrix]

Felix and Nerd are close friends and practice primarily with each other. As a result, Felix knows the Falco matchup better than arguably any Diddy (ask DEHF, I believe they played recently), and Nerd knows the Diddy matchup much, much better than any Falco and has excellent banana control, much like a Diddy main.

Because they can both control bananas with such proficiency, they're also arguably the best doubles team in the state.

Both players now believe Falco beats Diddy.

This is also a large part of why I believe Diddy is a character that, while good, gets away with a lot based on people not knowing the matchup. When you are both grounded, Diddy changes the constraints of the game to one in which banana control is the most important skill; and the Diddy player has hundreds of hours of practice in it.

Falco is bad in teams. Nerd goes mk while I go diddy. I probably do know the falco matchup better than most diddy players, and nerd and I believe that it's 50-50 or it's 55-45. It isn't a bad matchup for diddy at all. Falco has nothing significant over diddy.

 

[Shaya]

Falco has a more consistent projectile.
A long ranged reflector.
Faster ground move set.
And a strong vertical spacing game (which is what diddy + a banana in hand doesn't naturally just destroy).
Diddy does have some lame ways to gimp falco though with bananas... but mmm...

Not really sure on what the match up between the two are though.

 

[Sails]

This was a great read. Really enjoyed being able to see how well informed and full of compelling arguments the Backroom really is (With MK/Ally being the only ones really disparaging the total intelligence quotient ).

I do disagree on some aspects probably due to character bias, so I feel Diddy is good where he is. However, many good points were brought up in opposition.

The worst part about discussing Diddy is, it's more theorycrafting than any other character will be. If a Diddy can land a PSNL, if a Diddy can keep control of his bananas, if the opponent has fantastic banana usage. If you're going to incorporate any tier listings based on theorycrafting, then Diddy deserves the same and may even rise a rank.

This piques my curiosity though, since I was under the impression that tier lists were built more on a characters inherent strengths and weaknesses, not so much biased from tournament placements. This thread however, shows a lot of the opposite. That's what motivates my strong acceptance on Diddy's placement; His potential. If we're going strictly by the metagame with little to no consideration of what he can possibly do, then I say let Diddy fall a place or two.

 

[redrighthand]

This was a great read. Really enjoyed being able to see how well informed and full of compelling arguments the Backroom really is (With MK/Ally being the only ones really disparaging the total intelligence quotient ).

I do disagree on some aspects probably due to character bias, so I feel Diddy is good where he is. However, many good points were brought up in opposition.

The worst part about discussing Diddy is, it's more theorycrafting than any other character will be. If a Diddy can land a PSNL, if a Diddy can keep control of his bananas, if the opponent has fantastic banana usage. If you're going to incorporate any tier listings based on theorycrafting, then Diddy deserves the same and may even rise a rank.

This piques my curiosity though, since I was under the impression that tier lists were built more on a characters inherent strengths and weaknesses, not so much biased from tournament placements. This thread however, shows a lot of the opposite. That's what motivates my strong acceptance on Diddy's placement; His potential. If we're going strictly by the metagame with little to no consideration of what he can possibly do, then I say let Diddy fall a place or two.

Great post, Great Summary.

I agree with your opinion that Diddy's rise and fall will really depend on what characteristics of characters are taken into consideration when the tier list is constructed. IMHO they can only create this new updated tier list with what is the current level of Diddy play; so if Diddy does drop a couple of place on the tier list he may come back again if his mentioned potential is discovered as Diddy main's skill and understanding developed.

 

[Praxis]

Falco is bad in teams. Nerd goes mk while I go diddy. I probably do know the falco matchup better than most diddy players, and nerd and I believe that it's 50-50 or it's 55-45. It isn't a bad matchup for diddy at all. Falco has nothing significant over diddy.

I most be outdated :/ Last time I talked to you each of you guys separately I got "Falco wins" out of it

 

[Praxis]

This piques my curiosity though, since I was under the impression that tier lists were built more on a characters inherent strengths and weaknesses, not so much biased from tournament placements. This thread however, shows a lot of the opposite. That's what motivates my strong acceptance on Diddy's placement; His potential. If we're going strictly by the metagame with little to no consideration of what he can possibly do, then I say let Diddy fall a place or two.

Keep in mind that tournaments are the only framework from which theorycraft can be demonstrated into reality, and theorycraft is only an attempt to predict tournament potential. Tournaments are the hard fact, and really should be the primary data source, because it's fact as opposed to theory which can be faulty due to human limitations.

 

[Sails]

Keep in mind that tournaments are the only framework from which theorycraft can be demonstrated into reality, and theorycraft is only an attempt to predict tournament potential. Tournaments are the hard fact, and really should be the primary data source, because it's fact as opposed to theory which can be faulty due to human limitations.

Makes sense then, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Dekar173]

Falco is bad in teams.

Completely wrong. DEHF goes falco in teams, and him and Tyrant took second in Florida.

Everyone else just doesn't know how to play Falco (or team with him) in doubles.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I've teamed with Falco, and I find him to be an excellent partner actually, but I think this topic is about Diddy Kong, who is probably one of the best characters to team with if you like a partner who can hang back and tank stocks.

 

[FelixTrix]

Because falco is great when his cg's can be messed up in doubles and his whole playstyle revolves around spacing lasers and getting grabs. not exactly doubles material. tyrant and dehf lost to will and lain back at mlg orlando. Not something that necessarily should have happened. Me and nerd can't beat jem and eggz if we go diddy-falco, but we can as diddy mk just because mk is THIS much better in teams than falco is.

Praxis, hit me up on aim and I'll fill you in on WA since you've left. lol at nerd still going falco in teams hahaha

 

[ADHD]

Because falco is great when his cg's can be messed up in doubles and his whole playstyle revolves around spacing lasers and getting grabs. not exactly doubles material. tyrant and dehf lost to will and lain back at mlg orlando. Not something that necessarily should have happened. Me and nerd can't beat jem and eggz if we go diddy-falco, but we can as diddy mk just because mk is THIS much better in teams than falco is.

Praxis, hit me up on aim and I'll fill you in on WA since you've left. lol at nerd still going falco in teams hahaha

You mad ugly ew.

 

[FelixTrix]

You mad ugly ew.

Go back to the streets man, its yo future anyways

 

[Dekar173]

MK's better than everyone in teams though that's kind of a given

Larry and Tyrant took ... second at orlando? lol.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm still hoping someone explains to me a fool proof way to recovery if Falco grabs me under 50% near an edge. The more I try to figure out how to survive...the more I think if the Falco plays it right its a guaranteed KO. If I can get past this hurdle I don't really have much other trouble in the MU.

 

[AvaricePanda]

AZ, have this amount of SDI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM

In all seriousness though, I remember Le_Thien said that with practice you could SDI Falco's spike and tech it fully on-stage. If you tech the ledge he can just spike or hit you again.

 

[Pwneroni]

You mad ugly ew.

youre an obnoxious piece of ****
felix is way better looking than you and doesn't wear the same clothes to every tournament
**** east coast
sincerely,eggz

 

[fource]

Double Post.

 

[fource]

Diddy generally performs really well against character higher on the tier list (at least in comparison to how other characters do). However, Diddy also struggles against characters from both the mid and low tiers, a problem that no other top tier character has. Diddy has no 90-10 or 80-20 match ups or anything that leans strongly in his favor. Almost all of Diddy's match ups run from 55-45 to 45-55 and a few 60-40 and 40-60 match ups (arguably of course). The thing is, no matter who Diddy has to go against, he has to earn his win. Diddy is an overall solid character with many strengths but also with his weaknesses.

Meta Knight and Snake should unarguably be above Diddy on the tier list. Not only are they placing higher, they have more match ups in their favor and virtually no bad match ups other than player to player opinion.

I personally think that Falco, Wario and Diddy are interchangeable between 3rd-5th on the tier list. All three characters have strengths and weaknesses that are hard to compare. Especially considering that this list is supposed to rank characters universally in a game dependent on region (Falco shines in the West Coast but are virtually non existent everywhere else, Diddy is mainly an issue in Texas and NJ and so on).


1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Falco
4. Diddy Kong
5. Wario

Personally, that's my opinion.

 

[AlphaZealot]

That Sdi thing may or may not work. Is there a vid of diddy doing it tofalcos down air? Like I said is there a way to for sure avoid the ko? The best I can do is di away from the stage and hope falco does not time his back air well but it's really not very successful vs players who know the match up. Sigh.

 

[OverLade]

Diddy is better than Snake.

 

[Gnes]

Diddy is better than Snake.

Nope

10nopes.com

 

[ADHD]

youre an obnoxious piece of ****
felix is way better looking than you and doesn't wear the same clothes to every tournament
**** east coast
sincerely,eggz

Pwneroni = eggz? NO WAY. And that statement is entirely false.

@ AZ you can just recover, lol. Jump and side B away then charge your barrels upwards at an angle. Or better yet, don't get grabbed in the first place? Falco has trouble landing grabs on diddy. You're acting like it's gnw or metkanight chasing you offstage.

 

[Player-1]

recovering against falco's Cg>dair is generally pretty easy although you eat some damage if he reads you right, but if he grabs you at the point where it's the very last possible dair he can hit you with out of a dthrow because of your % then that's the point where either you can't use your side-b anymore or you can't recover at all, I forget which one >.>

 

[fource]

Gnes just told me to keep a banana in hand. So after the spike, you can jump and throw the banana upward. Then you can safely barrel to the ledge.

 

[DMG]

Technically you can Z Catch the Banana and throw it back down/Z drop it back down as Falco, but that is a great attempt. The best thing to do is SDI the spike onstage, or tech the ledge. It's not THAT hard to get all the way to the stage.

 

[Gnes]

Technically you can Z Catch the Banana and throw it back down/Z drop it back down as Falco, but that is a great attempt. The best thing to do is SDI the spike onstage, or tech the ledge. It's not THAT hard to get all the way to the stage.

Nope...u throw it that height to where its literally at the ledge/barely below, they cant instant throw it down to kill u.

 

[Player-1]

actually you can't z catch, you have to instant throw it...

 

[DMG]

Then Falco catches it with Dair and hits you out of Upb with the weak hit.

Or he does that, takes the Upb Hit (doesn't hit you), tech jumps/techs, Dair spike again. Hard rafe.

But yes in all reality, there is no need for such things. Just SDI better and you can make it back onstage every single time no matter what.

 

[Gnes]

The naner placed at the angle that i said stops all interference from chrs. not named mk.


@Dmg...uh no. That doesn't happen. Whats with the extreme theorycraft. The only way falco's dair would be able to gimp diddy after hes been spiked is if falco jumps down/falls down after diddy. Then u just react to that stupidity. Not to mention if he's falling down with anything, it would be Bair/Fair.

 

[Praxis]

For anyone wondering regarding Felix's post @ me, I haven't left the WA smash scene, but my job now has me working Saturday mornings. Felix is Western WA, I'm Eastern WA, there's a 5-6 hour drive between is, so as a result I can't make Western WA tournaments and Western WA never comes to Eastern WA tournaments, so there's a disconnect and we haven't been able to play together in 6 months or so. >_<

 

[Player-1]

no praxis, no one was wondering, no one cares about you </3

 

[DMG]

Gnes dawg it's all bout theory craft

Like how Jiggs can rest anything perfectly.

 

[OverLade]

Everytime MK throws somebody it should be a stock.

Am I doing it right?

 

[Player-1]

MK's best move is dthrow.

 

[Luigi player]

Diddy ***** Peach.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Sigh, I think I would really benefit from a falco in Ohio who could consistently play me. Quivo has started using him and that has helped, I did way better vs lie this time around then back in march. still my
only win was cping him to brinstar so the spike would not work and he just switched to mk. Game 1 vs his Falco he got the cg spike off zero to death on me when he was already last stock 100%.