Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[[TSON]]

Is it me, or is side B useless?

Whenever I hit someone with it, rarely am I able to combo out of it. Most of the time the victim is able to jump out and nair out of it to keep themselves safe.

And this is critique from my friends using it, who don't even know what SDI is. I imagine against someone who does know what SDI is, it wouldn't even be worth the trouble.

Also, about uthrow, is it useful against people other than ffers now? I haven't really tried it, as I am in the habit of using dthrow.

And if dthrow sends people too far away, give it DDD dthrow stats.

Anyway, what is the general consensus on Ness?

IMO

There needed to be middle ground and this is not it. Either PKF needs a speedup or needs to be reverted to vbrawl. And I don't like this fair, its boring XD. Dthrow is stale too for the most part. He just doesn't have any combos anymore imo they're all sloppy strings. Nothing is guaranteed. Some people might find that as a good thing but i dont.


Also i need tips against Link. I get walled by his projectiles and have no way to punish because everything I do is beat out by SDI or only combos into one move. PKT1 is too slow to help for me because he's got arrows...

 

[twiblets]

ness really does seem to go from one extreme to the other :s

 

[PKNintendo]

Besides, even if a size buff were to go through, 2.0 is absurd. An increase of 1.7 as opposed to 1.5 seems more reasonable.

Although I agree about PK Fire, that move is now useless.

I see. 1.7 would be a reasonable compromise. PK Fire is so bad though. I bet Shanus is LOLING a us since his PK fire was fine (apparently you had to tap your way out of it)

There needed to be middle ground and this is not it. Either PKF needs a speedup or needs to be reverted to vbrawl. And I don't like this fair, its boring XD. Dthrow is stale too for the most part. He just doesn't have any combos anymore imo they're all sloppy strings. Nothing is guaranteed. Some people might find that as a good thing but i dont.

Meh, I don't really care about Fair anymore. I don't even KNOW what's going on there. PKF needs to be like the way Shanus programed it. vBrawl's PKF was beyond crap and you know it yourself.

Downthrow angle change is okay. If you want, I see we remove the Upthrow Buff for a better Downthrow angle. (not like the original)

Psi magnet is still **** cool.


Also i need tips against Link. I get walled by his projectiles and have no way to punish because everything I do is beat out by SDI or only combos into one move. PKT1 is too slow to help for me because he's got arrows...

 

[CountKaiser]

I'm not quite sure why dthrow was changed to be a techchase throw anyway. All of ness's throws, save fthrow, had a specific purpose and did their purpose well. Dthrow for combos, uthrow for FFers, bthrow for killing.

Only problem was that dthrow set up for cg's. I figured that it could be slightly tweaked so that cg's wouldn't happen, and then it'd be fine.

Since it seems that dthrow is now going to be a techchase throw, which unfortunately is a nerf no matter how you look at it (Nothing from dthrow is now guaranteed at any percent), then may I suggest giving it DDD's dthrow stats?

Also, how well does uthrow combo on non FFers?

PKNintendo: I'm not sure what to say except to try and find a way around his projectiles. You really need to be patient, since Ness has no good way of stopping physical projectiles.

 

[[TSON]]

thats stupid. Sure I can powershield all day but what does that accomplish save a shield break or a bunch more projectiles

 

[CountKaiser]

It's not stupid, it's called a character weakness. You have to work around it.

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm not quite sure why dthrow was changed to be a techchase throw anyway. All of ness's throws, save fthrow, had a specific purpose and did their purpose well. Dthrow for combos, uthrow for FFers, bthrow for killing.

Only problem was that dthrow set up for cg's. I figured that it could be slightly tweaked so that cg's wouldn't happen, and then it'd be fine.

Since it seems that dthrow is now going to be a techchase throw, which unfortunately is a nerf no matter how you look at it (Nothing from dthrow is now guaranteed at any percent), then may I suggest giving it DDD's dthrow stats?

Also, how well does uthrow combo on non FFers?

PKNintendo: I'm not sure what to say except to try and find a way around his projectiles. You really need to be patient, since Ness has no good way of stopping physical projectiles.

Hey dude that's not me. XD

I'm dude who wants PK flash to be better.

Edit: You know what guys? Screw PK Flash. I want the Fsmash to have have it's tipper range increased by 25% like last time. (I miss that)

currently it's 99% outclassed by Lucas' Fsmash which has more range, knockback but less damage. (whoopy)

 

[[TSON]]

It's not stupid, it's called a character weakness. You have to work around it.

Explain to me how to then and quit BSing me lmao :V

EDIT: I'm gonna go back to vbrawl until next build.. i find this unplayable for some reason. its not OMG LOL BS but its not fun at all. i came to brawl+ for combos and there aren't any in this one, just tech chasing. so yea, next build. or maybe ill just main someone else for a while.

 

[PKNintendo]

So, where did everybody go?

(I've got a ****load of work to do...)

 

[CountKaiser]

Finals and stuff.

 

[PKNintendo]

Eh lame.
If it's just you mind if I run a few idea's past you?

1. Nvmind. C-C-C-ombo breaker!

2. PK Fire needs to be buffed, it's really, really, really bad now.

3. Can we RE add the Fsmash buff? (25% tipper hitbox increase) It makes the move way better.

If 2 can't be done number 3 would be great to finish.

 

[[TSON]]

No.

Bring back old dthrow with a slightly higher angle increase (so uair is possible, fair is a stretch) and lower SDI on PK fire a bit so we can get a hit out of it usually.

 

[CountKaiser]

PKNintendo: I don't think the fsmash buff was ever taken out.

As for dthrow, how have people received it?

For me, I think it's meh. That, and uthrow I haven't messed with too much in an actual match, though in training mode I've been able to get a few uairs off from it at low percents.

 

[Scufo]

The new dthrow is fine. It's consistent with what they're doing with a lot of throws to make them less auto-combo. In the matches I've played, I've found it leads into dash attack, but I don't remember whether they hit the ground first or not. If they did it was just them failing at teching.

I like the new fair too. It's not exactly what we had in mind but it's still functional. Doesn't combo as well obviously, but it's still the massive disjointed thing we all know and love. Also, since it has some KB now, I've scored a few gimps with it.

Agreed on PK Fire. It's pretty much garbage now.

Fsmash is fine. Not every move has to be good.

EDIT: Also, uthrow combos well on fastfallers. Otherwise it's not too great, except at super low percents.

 

[CountKaiser]

Uthrow has always comboed well on FFers, though, so it really isn't much of a change.

It certainly doesn't make up for the loss of dthrow as a combo throw, at least.

 

[ChaosKnight]

ness is fineeeee

 

[Scufo]

Uthrow has always comboed well on FFers, though, so it really isn't much of a change.

It certainly doesn't make up for the loss of dthrow as a combo throw, at least.

No, but I'm not sure we need it.

 

[CountKaiser]

:/

I kinda liked the combos he had from his throws.

Why not make Ness's uthrow like mario's? That seems to be a good template for uthrows.

 

[[TSON]]

we dont have anything going for us except utilt baw baw bawwwwww baaaaaaaaawl+

 

[RPGsFTW]

It certainly doesn't make up for the loss of dthrow as a combo throw, at least.

Our great Ness player here, Fow, in vBrawl and in +, seems to combo out of Dthrow just fine. =/ He'll dash attack if we DI away and tech roll away or Usmash and hit us. I don't know if tech rolling towards him, after the initial DI away and down, will help any because of his big dash attack. Oh, and not related to Dthrow but his Nair eats almost everything like it's nothing, especially if you rolled toward him and attacked.

Besides that, his Ness is way too ****ing good. You'd have to play him to know, but in the weekly tournaments here, using the GSH1 Nightly, I get 3rd place in singles a bunch, and those above me are Fow (Ness) and SK92 (Falco). =/

 

[Alphatron]

New dthrow isn't bad, just boring. If I wanted to tech chase, I'd play someone else like Dedede...and I already do.

PK Fire is trash now as many have said. But that's just because it was fine before and got the nerf stick because getting follow ups off of it(the moves purpose since the beginning of time) was too easy? =/

 

[CountKaiser]

@RPG: Get vids of FOW playing.

@Alpha: If the new dthrow is boring, what you you suggest for it?

And apparently, everyone was mad that PK Fire guaranteed followups. I'm not sure why this is, since it's ridiculously slow in the first place.

 

[Alphatron]

Getting hit by PK Fire is like getting hit by DDD fsmash. His fsmash flat out outprioritizes it too. The only problem with PK Fire may have been the endlag being too low. But many chars have unpunishable projectile attacks, like vbrawl Lucas.

I'm biased on dthrow. I'd just like to see a throw that put the opponent in the air and out of fair range with DI. Ness can either ground chase or do a rising aerial/DJC based on the enemy's DI or actions to escape.

 

[shanus]

We need someone to test the current PK fire in frame advance. Please test perfect SDI and see exactly how much damage you receive. Then try ASDI, see how many hits, etc.

I would like to know the advantage on hit for Ness, as well.

 

[Alphatron]

I wish I knew how to do that. ;_;

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, define perfect SDI.

I won't be able to test this immediately, but I should be able to get something up by the middle of next week.

 

[RPGsFTW]

CK, seriously, I have been trying to get vids of both Fow and SK92 playing B+ in our weekly tournaments for a while now. Fow doesn't want me to save replays, or doesn't do it himself in time before they mash Start, because he says that you guys will nerf Ness too much.

He constantly *****es about how Ness sucks and was nerfed hard. I tell him that Ness is plenty good, and it doesn't really seem to matter because he is 2nd on Vegas' vBrawl Power Rankings... with Ness, therefore he overcomes all of his hard match-ups. Only when he seems to feel like a **** does he go MK in vBrawl.

He is the best vB and B+ Ness I've seen so far. I actually have gotten closer to beating SK92 in a set than Fow. I almost beat SK92 on Sunday, but at the last hit between my Wolf and his Falco, he hit me first. ;_;
It sucks because if I had sent him to loser's he could've beaten Fow for me and I would've fought him again, getting guaranteed 2nd or possibly 1st. Unfortunately, I lost to both of them and got 3rd, haha.

 

[PKNintendo]

Fsmash still has the range buff?!? YES!!!


If so I'm super content. (I can't believe I didn't notice...) but it wasn't on the change list.

:/

I kinda liked the combos he had from his throws.

Why not make Ness's uthrow like mario's? That seems to be a good template for uthrows

sounds good to me, GaW got our backthrow!

+8 to PK fire being returned to original B+ standard. (PK fire speedup + old SDI effects)

 

[CountKaiser]

CK, seriously, I have been trying to get vids of both Fow and SK92 playing B+ in our weekly tournaments for a while now. Fow doesn't want me to save replays, or doesn't do it himself in time before they mash Start, because he says that you guys will nerf Ness too much.

He constantly *****es about how Ness sucks and was nerfed hard. I tell him that Ness is plenty good, and it doesn't really seem to matter because he is 2nd on Vegas' vBrawl Power Rankings... with Ness, therefore he overcomes all of his hard match-ups. Only when he seems to feel like a **** does he go MK in vBrawl.

Can you get him to say exactly what about ness is bad and needs to be changed?

Besides a few throw tweaks and PK fire, most people think Ness to be fine. What does he have to say about it Ness and about how good or bad he is, specifically?

 

[PKNintendo]

FoW plays B+?

And yeah I agree Ness is fine. PK fire + a few throws and he'll be laughing.

 

[[TSON]]

i have an idea. instead of messing around with IASA, lets make pk fire's pillar faster with higher SDI. its essentially the same thing except it wont feel unresponsive or easy mode. also make the first hit of it have 0.7x sdi so that the pillar still hits but escaping is easier if you SDI it. of course balance this so we can hit them if they dont DI out (and dont make that hell for them, but make it rather hard). and make the tail of pk thunder do 2%, while lowering the head to 6% (from 8) so that the tail has more hitstun and the head has less and doesnt lock samus.

that along with a slight fair or dthrow angle change and i'd be happy.

 

[PKNintendo]

i have an idea. instead of messing around with IASA, lets make pk fire's pillar faster with higher SDI. its essentially the same thing except it wont feel unresponsive or easy mode. also make the first hit of it have 0.7x sdi so that the pillar still hits but escaping is easier if you SDI it. of course balance this so we can hit them if they dont DI out (and dont make that hell for them, but make it rather hard). and make the tail of pk thunder do 2%, while lowering the head to 6% (from 8) so that the tail has more hitstun and the head has less and doesnt lock samus.

that along with a slight fair or dthrow angle change and i'd be happy.

I like the idea's. But if went with priority I'd say:

PK Fire>Downthrow>PKT tail change>Then fair.

(Assuming we only get to pick a few)

 

[[TSON]]

I like the idea's. But if went with priority I'd say:

PK Fire>Downthrow>PKT tail change>Then fair.

(Assuming we only get to pick a few)

The tail change would be a package with the head change, sorta like how falcon's strengthened upB came from nerfing knee.
Considering this "infinite" on samus, i think that would be top priority, pk fire being next.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Can you get him to say exactly what about ness is bad and needs to be changed?

Besides a few throw tweaks and PK fire, most people think Ness to be fine. What does he have to say about it Ness and about how good or bad he is, specifically?

I think he is just fine too. I can't even think of why he thinks Ness is bad, but he does. He just says stuff like, "Ness sucks, but I overcome it because I'm so ****." and other dumb things. And he tells me to stop nerfing Ness. I tell him that I'm not doing it. I say that it's the play testing and well thought out opinions that help the WBR make their decisions on what should be changed.

FoW plays B+?

And yeah I agree Ness is fine. PK fire + a few throws and he'll be laughing.

He does indeed. If you search my name on All Is Brawl, both him and SK92 on on my rivals list thing. And it'll also tell you about my placement in the tournaments. I got 3rd out of who knows how many a few days ago on Sunday, but the tournament results haven't been uploaded yet. I know I can't wait to get another loss to both of them on my rivals list once it gets uploaded. At least I do good besides that. Vegas is pretty tough, haha. If we had a B+ power rankings I'd probably be on there.

Oh, and I used just Wario and Wolf that tournament. I've been going on and off a bunch of characters, Bowser, DK, Yoshi, etc, but I always play Wario for sure if nothing else.

 

[PKNintendo]

FoW sounds like an annoying kid.

 

[[TSON]]

FOW's a cool guy. He can't spell the 4 letter abbreviation of my name, but I digress

 

[RPGsFTW]

FoW sounds like an annoying kid.

Oh wow. That's what a lot of people here say, lol. He IS INDEED a very annoying kid. He talks a ton of trash sometimes too. I was pretty much cursing at him all day Sunday when we had a match. We both laughed a lot about it all, but he definitely deserves the trash talk back.

He's 14, and he is a beast. I don't know how many vBrawl vids of him are around, but if you can find some, he is most likely ****** his opponent.

Oh, and what's a good counterpick stage against Ness? I've tried a few obvious things, but they haven't worked well. They include: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, etc. I do know that he hates Yoshi's Island (Brawl) though, but I'd rather not go there.

 

[CountKaiser]

Lylat Cruise, maybe?

You already mentioned Frigate and Yoshi's. I honestly got nothing.

BTW, for reference, this is a match with Fow. vBrawl, unfortunately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y38ZZSczUaM

 

[[TSON]]

i have an idea. instead of messing around with IASA, lets make pk fire's pillar faster with higher SDI. its essentially the same thing except it wont feel unresponsive or easy mode. also make the first hit of it have 0.7x sdi so that the pillar still hits but escaping is easier if you SDI it. of course balance this so we can hit them if they dont DI out (and dont make that hell for them, but make it rather hard). and make the tail of pk thunder do 2%, while lowering the head to 6% (from 8) so that the tail has more hitstun and the head has less and doesnt lock samus.

that along with a slight fair or dthrow angle change and i'd be happy.

Anyone support?

 

[PKNintendo]

14? Eh that's pretty **** young for the titan who took down tyrant.

Woah...