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Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010
- Thread starter Darky-Sama
- Start date
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Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
who the **** said darky calls the shots?
im sorry if you didn't get the idea...
but me, p-3, and red blue know our **** the best. we're veterans son.
darky knows his stuff, but honestly i think people listen to his opinions more just because he presents them like how we did back in the day.
all the knowledgeable people called it 8-2.
so its 8-2.
k?
k.
I don't appreciate your lack of arguments :/
And no, "Marth ***** Falcon in every possible way" isn't an argument.
But I still like you :3
And no, "Marth ***** Falcon in every possible way" isn't an argument.
But I still like you :3
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
It's not up to me, we're suppose to be doing this **** as a team. 80:20 does sound about right to me though, or 25:75 maximum.
Falcon isn't completely limited against Marth; but overall, he's generally better. When you look at Marth, you can't just say "Oh, he's got an Fair, we can get around that". Marth's ground game is just as bad, even with half of the Doop Walking shenanigans that most of them use now. It's ridiculous too because of how fast Marth moves with his walk in general. He can speed up and slow down with his grounded approaches and space his tippers accordingly. He even has a first hit Nair, which is better than Falcon's with agreeably equal or better range.
Majority of the things that Falcon has against Marth can be outspaced and punished on the ground and in the air. This is another one of those match-ups that Falcon has to hold up a shield to even get the slightest edge in a legit match. Even then, if a Marth plays equally defensive, Falcon is going to be wrecked.
Offensive Marth: 25:75 at best.
Defensive Marth: 15:95 // 10:90.
Overall; I'd say 80:20 is an accurate ratio.
Falcon isn't completely limited against Marth; but overall, he's generally better. When you look at Marth, you can't just say "Oh, he's got an Fair, we can get around that". Marth's ground game is just as bad, even with half of the Doop Walking shenanigans that most of them use now. It's ridiculous too because of how fast Marth moves with his walk in general. He can speed up and slow down with his grounded approaches and space his tippers accordingly. He even has a first hit Nair, which is better than Falcon's with agreeably equal or better range.
Majority of the things that Falcon has against Marth can be outspaced and punished on the ground and in the air. This is another one of those match-ups that Falcon has to hold up a shield to even get the slightest edge in a legit match. Even then, if a Marth plays equally defensive, Falcon is going to be wrecked.
Offensive Marth: 25:75 at best.
Defensive Marth: 15:95 // 10:90.
Overall; I'd say 80:20 is an accurate ratio.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
sorry if i was a little harsh on you darky. i know you know your stuff
as to be the deciding factor....no one is
you want arguments son?
marths defense > falcons offense.
its very difficult to get into marths bad zones without eating a lot of damage. approaching him from the front, or back is too big of a risk. he has so many viable options to keep you out. furthermore his aerial game is very good. f-air alone is gonna keep you out. n-air is pretty viavle against us also because of falcons size. if you are above him, marth can bait and wait or just u-air you. b-air can kill. his only downfall is his underside. you need to get beneath him.
and the same trick isn't gonna work on a good player twice. so if you do get into his bad zone, he is gonna do everything to push you out and keep you away the next time.
marths offensive game > falcon defense.
marths priotiy is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falcon.
a good marth can tip very well. well enough to get you off stage after a couple of hits.
and his edge game is good enough to keep you out.
dancing blade. period.
8-2, because there is no safe way to break marth at all.
if you can get beneath him, or if you get lucky and blast him off the stage you can edgehog his recovery.
play carefully
8-2
i want refutation against this post.
as to be the deciding factor....no one is
you want arguments son?
marths defense > falcons offense.
its very difficult to get into marths bad zones without eating a lot of damage. approaching him from the front, or back is too big of a risk. he has so many viable options to keep you out. furthermore his aerial game is very good. f-air alone is gonna keep you out. n-air is pretty viavle against us also because of falcons size. if you are above him, marth can bait and wait or just u-air you. b-air can kill. his only downfall is his underside. you need to get beneath him.
and the same trick isn't gonna work on a good player twice. so if you do get into his bad zone, he is gonna do everything to push you out and keep you away the next time.
marths offensive game > falcon defense.
marths priotiy is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falcon.
a good marth can tip very well. well enough to get you off stage after a couple of hits.
and his edge game is good enough to keep you out.
dancing blade. period.
8-2, because there is no safe way to break marth at all.
if you can get beneath him, or if you get lucky and blast him off the stage you can edgehog his recovery.
play carefully
8-2
i want refutation against this post.
Darky is the deciding factor because he's in charge of the thread hehe (at least I think that's what lord meant).
And thanks for the post Darx, I can but agree with everything you said.
I'll just add that Marth's weak spot (beneath him) can be extended to the diagonal beneath/in front of him (where his Fair ends and Dair begins, and where your Uair begins), which is imo far more exploitable because no Marth will let you get straight under him.
Oh and thatyou must recover from low enough for Falcon Dive to autosweetspot (so that you don't get Dtilted), but high enough so that you don't die if Marth edgehogs.
And thanks for the post Darx, I can but agree with everything you said.
I'll just add that Marth's weak spot (beneath him) can be extended to the diagonal beneath/in front of him (where his Fair ends and Dair begins, and where your Uair begins), which is imo far more exploitable because no Marth will let you get straight under him.
Oh and thatyou must recover from low enough for Falcon Dive to autosweetspot (so that you don't get Dtilted), but high enough so that you don't die if Marth edgehogs.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
yeah
if no one is going to full out refute the old mains case
then it should be posted as 80-20.
those spots you said
are going to be very very hard to get to. and once you get into that position then you better stick to it like glue.
marth can edgegaurd that recovery also. as a matter of fact that pretty any recovery that falcon does close to the stage, any recovery that is more vertical can get Dolphin slashed and you'll get stage spiked.
if you are faceing the stage while recovering, and you are recovering vertically with falcon dive, expect for marth to be hangin around offstage before hand in a spot where the you cant grab him with up+b.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Nah, don't worry. Like I said, we're suppose to be making this as accurate as possible as a team, so I don't plan on setting anything bias for a match-up conclusions just because my opinion might be different. Unless people are just being ridiculous and mentioning stupid stuff and trolling;; which I doubt will be the case anyway with you guys since you actually know what you're talking about. LoL.
That being said, I have to say, Ftilt OoS works pretty well against Marth's aerial approaching. It's not going to prove very beneficial against a good Marth who knows how to space though, unless you run toward them and pull up a shield out of your dash close enough that he can't space himself away properly. Situational, but still pretty decent. It comes out quicker than Marth can throw out another aerial, so unless he fastfalls and pulls up a perfect shield, yeah. It's not bad at all.
I haven't played too many good Marths lately though. Just mediocre ones. The two best that I've played up to date are probably Zelda Master Timmy and Mr. R.
That being said, I have to say, Ftilt OoS works pretty well against Marth's aerial approaching. It's not going to prove very beneficial against a good Marth who knows how to space though, unless you run toward them and pull up a shield out of your dash close enough that he can't space himself away properly. Situational, but still pretty decent. It comes out quicker than Marth can throw out another aerial, so unless he fastfalls and pulls up a perfect shield, yeah. It's not bad at all.
I haven't played too many good Marths lately though. Just mediocre ones. The two best that I've played up to date are probably Zelda Master Timmy and Mr. R.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I said we were waiting for Darky because he hadn't put in any input at the time. And since this is his thread, he should be able to be part of the discussion to better be able to write up the summary.
Anyways, I still think 2-8 is a ludicrous number. I'll go with 25-75, but **** 2-8 he's not Meta Knight and he doesn't **** us that hard.
Anyways, I still think 2-8 is a ludicrous number. I'll go with 25-75, but **** 2-8 he's not Meta Knight and he doesn't **** us that hard.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
mmm
the same trick won't work twice. he can empty short hop, barely miss you, fastfall and d-tilt.
that option is as good as any. works the first couple of times, but after that marth will see it coming.
yeah he's a tricky, versatile little devil.
scrub: stop comparing match ups. marth falcon is 8-2 in a different way than Mk is 75-25.
SUCK
IT
UP.
the same trick won't work twice. he can empty short hop, barely miss you, fastfall and d-tilt.
that option is as good as any. works the first couple of times, but after that marth will see it coming.
yeah he's a tricky, versatile little devil.
scrub: stop comparing match ups. marth falcon is 8-2 in a different way than Mk is 75-25.
SUCK
IT
UP.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I imagine it was wifi, but hey, playing a legit player online gives you far more knowledge than basing it of off scrubs offline.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Darky is EC, and you'd be surprised by how good his connection is. Wi-Fi will be Wi-Fi, though. And like I said, online versus legit players is better than offline versus scrubs.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Wi-Fi, yeah. But it still gets the job done regardless. My connection with most people is close to flawless, so aside from the normal online speed reduction, it's not bad at all. lol. I would have preferred it to be offline, but lets face it. I can't travel all the way across the world to place these people. But both of them are experienced with both online and offline play, so eh. At least it gives a decent accusation. :V
Also; ZMT, it was around the end of last year, yeah. He doesn't play online much anymore. Mr. R, I played during a game with Shadow Tactics and his bro about two or three months ago; and we did some 1v1s after he left. The connection was actually REALLY stable.
Online, we could have all done better offline and are probably much better now than back then, but both of them can prove how pitiful this match-up is for Falcon either way.
Also; ZMT, it was around the end of last year, yeah. He doesn't play online much anymore. Mr. R, I played during a game with Shadow Tactics and his bro about two or three months ago; and we did some 1v1s after he left. The connection was actually REALLY stable.
Online, we could have all done better offline and are probably much better now than back then, but both of them can prove how pitiful this match-up is for Falcon either way.
I played Mr R at an offline tourney, 2 games.
First game he 3 stocked me, second I took him to last stock but lost.
So yeah...
So if I ever see Marth SHing and doing nothing on the way up I know it's a free RB.
But like you said, he's versatile so if this this doesn't work it's ok because he has like 555 other options.
PS : I still don't believe it's 8-2, but since I don't have the arguments to prove my point I'll go with what you guys say.
First game he 3 stocked me, second I took him to last stock but lost.
So yeah...
Empty SHing is actually a bad option here, because it exposes Marth's weak spot (I talked about earlier) to raptor boost.Darxmarth23 said:
So if I ever see Marth SHing and doing nothing on the way up I know it's a free RB.
But like you said, he's versatile so if this this doesn't work it's ok because he has like 555 other options.
PS : I still don't believe it's 8-2, but since I don't have the arguments to prove my point I'll go with what you guys say.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I'm actually leaning more toward 25:75. This is a ridiculous match-up for Falcon, but 20:80 might be pushing it for something that Falcon isn't completely limited against.
Though my conclusion remains; Marth wrecks Falcon in just about every way.
Though my conclusion remains; Marth wrecks Falcon in just about every way.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Which is why people should stfu about "there is no lag, my connection is awesome"
Really, though
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
that doesn't mean i don't know my ****.
regardless, marth is terrible on wifi. like he sucks BALLZ
marth can pull out a F-air anytime in his SH. thats gonna take care of rapterboost pretty much. you just described a situation where he baits you.
now....
there is no sarcasm in the following doc.
Dear Darky,
Hi! How are you? My name is Darx and I'm mainly an MK main now, but i have gone to tourneys with Marth and placed well + i was a heavy falcon user for doubles and i often used him in singles. I've been on the boards for a really really long time and have a lot of knowledge about falcon and his match ups. The falcon vs. Marth match up the most.
I am writing to you regarding the falcon marth MU. there are a lot of people saying it is 75-25, however as i have presented, it is not. as said by most of the people here, marth has multiple viable options against falcon both offensively and defensivly. Marths sword out priotiizes every move we have except grab, but only when you are in grab range. Marth fully extends his sword during most of his aerials, f-smash, and d-tilt. marths aerial game is deadly and he can edgegaurd very easily against all of our reocoveries.
falcon has nothing on marth because it is too difficult to reach marths bad zones, and the same trick won't work twice. he has the priority and range to make sure you never go under him again.
please take the bolded line into consideration. yeah marth is gonna take some hits when you get under him, but there is no safe way to get under him. how are you going to get there? so far, none of the people who have posted have provided an answer. furthermore, it seems that some people are using wifi matches with marth as their credibility, however note that marth is terrible on wifi and wifi is not a fair judgement of either characters MU.
Marth possesses all of these properties as opposed to Falcon which is why marth shuts falcon down in every way: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232375
please write back, i eagarly wait your reply.
with kind regards,
Darx
lordhelmet
Smash Master
"and the same trick won't work twice"
Darx, I think you're forgetting that match-ups do not consider human aspect.
Darx, I think you're forgetting that match-ups do not consider human aspect.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
thats a cheap shot scrub
but i'll take it
even without that.
marths range, versatility, and priority settles 80-20
you can't reach marths bad zones safely.
he is going to do all it takes to make sure his *** is covered.
you still havent told me how you are going to go into his bad zones at all.
if you don't consider the human aspect a part of the match up then you all shouldn't have mentioned ally or Mr. R or ZMT.
honestly im waiting for legit refutation instead of "you don't play brawl anymore," "no u," and "don't take in the human factor"
present to me a plan concerning how you break marths defensive barrier, and provide me a way to not get ***** by his offense
and
i forgot about dancing blade.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Human aspect as in "mind games" and the like. Basing match-ups off of players is different because they are (in some cases) the out-lier for that character. They show just what said character can or can't do in a real situation.
If we didn't have players or first-hand experience, what would we base the match-ups off of?
If we didn't have players or first-hand experience, what would we base the match-ups off of?
What I'm trying to say is that there is a certain range where Marth can't punish a Raptor boost with a Fair on reaction. Because of RB's strange hitbox and the fact that Fair has a falling hitbox.
But yeah, good Marths adapt and don't fall for it twice. Anyway in this matchup Falcon must use tricks that won't work twice because that's bascially all he has.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Saying that the same trick won't work twice isn't anything like mind games. its called common sense. marth has all the tools necessary to avoid falcons tricks and then some. its obvious than any player would learn from their mistakes and if they have the proper tools (which in this case, marth has more than enough) then they would adress the situation so that the same thing won't happen twice.
Basing off of ally is alright, but the thing is, there hasn't been anyone besides M2K and maybe a few others who have reached that skill level. When Ally beat Judges MK with Falcon it just showed that Ally is just inhuman when he plays. We should use examples that can be easier to relate to like Rebaz back in the day.
Using Wifi is not "First hand expericence"
Its wifi.
Wifi and tournament conditions are extremly different.
and we shouldn't entirely base it off of real world experience. we have frame data which my side of the issue has used before. we have 7 properties of a good move. we have multiple analytical tools to analyze the match up.
I have gone against marth with falcon in tournament settings. its ridiculously hard
I have gone against falcon with marth in tournament settings its ridiculously easy
untill you deconstruct all of my arguments
it should be 80-20 marths favor
@telouborg
okay i see what you mean, however unless you start your raptor boost really close to marth, it won't catch him by surprise. that means if you start far away, he may be able to SHFF F-air, which custs straight into the ground, or if you start close you might be risking getting hit because you are closer.
Im glad you took my statment into consideration though. Nice job.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I didn't say I meant "first-hand experience" as Wi-Fi. Where you got that from, I have no idea.
But other than that, I agree, I just don't agree that it's 2-8.
But other than that, I agree, I just don't agree that it's 2-8.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
your wifi examples were ****
ZMT?
Mr.R?
those were wifi examples.
really not credible at all, with marth even more because he is **** on wifi
you really are stubborn about the #s aren't you?
fuuu
i wouldn't mind if it was even worse. but 8-2 is where me and the old mains drew the line.
even your precious darky agreed it was 8-2, a defensive marth would be even worse.
its just you,
the result should be posted as 8-2 FINAL.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I may have used wifi examples earlier, but that's not was I was talking about as "first-hand experience".
And the problem with your arguments is that you haven't played competitively recently. The metagames have evolved and the match-ups have changed.
But like I said, I agree that Marth ***** us, but at this point it's a matter of how hard he ***** us.
Also, your post was edited, credibility - 3.
And the problem with your arguments is that you haven't played competitively recently. The metagames have evolved and the match-ups have changed.
But like I said, I agree that Marth ***** us, but at this point it's a matter of how hard he ***** us.
Also, your post was edited, credibility - 3.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
shoulda mentioned that about your wifi examples
and about your second statment
lol. they haven't changed that much at all. marths metagame hasn't changed at all, and falcons had a few minor tweaks.
he ***** us just as hard as he ***** us back then, if not harder because marth mains now know exactly how to control themselves at higher stakes.
he ***** us VERY hard. and we can't really touch him. 8-2 and 75-25 is not ver far off but 8-2 says there is honestly not much you can do at all. just play smart and hope for the best.
"Also, your post was edited, credibility - 3"
ha
i don't think so. its not like i would ever agree with you. i only edit to make my case stronger.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
K.
This has been beaten down pretty far, either we wait for a decisive ratio, or we move on to the next character.
And since you said 25-75 isn't far off, I think that's what we should go with.
This has been beaten down pretty far, either we wait for a decisive ratio, or we move on to the next character.
And since you said 25-75 isn't far off, I think that's what we should go with.
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Check the OP. MK is 8-2 also.
Marth and MK are very similar,
and they both **** us in similar fasions each style barely varying.
Its always been like that.
75-25 says that its still a 1/4 chance.
8-2 says your gonna get *****.
Darky-Sama: I have outlined why it is 80-20. Lordhelmet just refuses the #. Mk and Marth are both 80-20. Take all i have said into consideration, every single word.
MY MAN!!!!!!!!
All old mains go 80-20 agains lordhelmets 75-25
we throwin' down son!!!!!!
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