Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship

[ExCeL 52]

11 Pages of nothing but arguements over 5 minutes of Edreese's work.
Time for someone to lock this.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I wonder how Yuna consistently brings threads into closure with not so much as an infraction...

 

[Brinzy]

Because Yuna isn't breaking the rules. Come on, isn't this obvious?

 

[betterthanbonds9]

because yuna is yuna and i used to dislike yuna, but now i dont mind yuna and actually read his posts, then i read the thread backwards and see him as right 90% of the time...

something tells me that I'm not the only one who thinks this because as stated earlier, yuna has no infractions or anything.

I actually thought this thread was a joke when i first saw it, glad to see many debates went on, wish i was here for 1/2 of them

 

[The Halloween Captain]

because yuna is yuna and i used to dislike yuna, but now i dont mind yuna and actually read his posts, then i read the thread backwards and see him as right 90% of the time...

something tells me that I'm not the only one who thinks this because as stated earlier, yuna has no infractions or anything.

I actually thought this thread was a joke when i first saw it, glad to see many debates went on, wish i was here for 1/2 of them

Odd, I used to like Yuna because he debated well. Then I realized that he stops all progress in a thread, forces threads into often unimportant details, and has almost no competitive knowledge of Brawl.

Seriously, never trust Yuna's "facts," it's like he doesn't actually play the game.

 

[Irow]

He at least faltered in his undying belief in Peach's prowess.

This is Sky` on my friends account. His internet sucks, so that I can't really change without waiting like twenty minutes.

Anywho, Yeah. I was about to switch mains, because the fact of the matter is, Peach can't win tournaments by herself. I will fight to the death to this fact. Those who say otherwise either:
1. Don't Main Peach.
2. Aren't credible, due to his or her lack of experience in high levels of competitive play.
I switched back because I also realized that I am very good with Peach, that's just the truth. I'm better with peach than I am with Kirby, or anybody else. My impulsivity made me switch, and for that, I feel pretty ignorant. I'm going to stay peach, but that's not going to stop me from picking up Kirby.

Because.

Without a sub that can subsist in higher levels of play, Peach stands no chance of winning a Regional, by herself. I wouldn't be suprised if she made top 15 or top 10. But otherwise, never first place.

 

[ExCeL 52]

This is Sky` on my friends account. His internet sucks, so that I can't really change without waiting like twenty minutes.

Anywho, Yeah. I was about to switch mains, because the fact of the matter is, Peach can't win tournaments by herself. I will fight to the death to this fact. Those who say otherwise either:
1. Don't Main Peach.
2. Aren't credible, due to his or her lack of experience in high levels of competitive play.
I switched back because I also realized that I am very good with Peach, that's just the truth. I'm better with peach than I am with Kirby, or anybody else. My impulsivity made me switch, and for that, I feel pretty ignorant. I'm going to stay peach, but that's not going to stop me from picking up Kirby.

Because.

Without a sub that can subsist in higher levels of play, Peach stands no chance of winning a Regional, by herself. I wouldn't be suprised if she made top 15 or top 10. But otherwise, never first place.

I will never accept the fact from anyone that Peach cannot win tournaments.
But anyways.. glad to hear you leave Kirby for her.

 

[Irow]

I will never accept the fact from anyone that Peach cannot win tournaments.
But anyways.. glad to hear you leave Kirby for her.

Excel. =/

Look, she's just got too many flaws, and until her metagame is developed to a standpoint where she can subsist in the top five rankings, she's just not gonna make it. Top ten? sure. Grand finals, all Peach?

When you fight a falco, what would you ban? Japes I hope. But then you leave Rainbow Cruise open.
They obviously have subs if you're fighting in the finals. MK Vs Peach, Rainbow Cruise.

That means that you just lost the finals. =/

Azen even recognizes this, and does not go Allll Peach.

I do think that currently, she is unDAIRrated, (Lolpun.) And she should be higher on the tier list, but she's not at a level to win regionals.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Excel. =/

Look, she's just got too many flaws, and until her metagame is developed to a standpoint where she can subsist in the top five rankings, she's just not gonna make it. Top ten? sure. Grand finals, all Peach?

When you fight a falco, what would you ban? Japes I hope. But then you leave Rainbow Cruise open.
They obviously have subs if you're fighting in the finals. MK Vs Peach, Rainbow Cruise.

That means that you just lost the finals. =/

Azen even recognizes this, and does not go Allll Peach.

I do think that currently, she is unDAIRrated, (Lolpun.) And she should be higher on the tier list, but she's not at a level to win regionals.

Lol.. Nice Pun.. Yeah I guess your right..
Why is Rainbow Cruise a tournament stage anyways?

 

[Irow]

Lol.. Nice Pun.. Yeah I guess your right..
Why is Rainbow Cruise a tournament stage anyways?

Just for this type of thing.
It forces people to pick up subs Imo. Or whatever, in any case, there are plenty of other stages that kinda **** peach.
Frigate?Japes?
Those are just some off the top of my head, but you get the idea.

 

[Kitamerby]

Hey guys! Settle down! The truth of the matter is that as in all fighting games, only the tippy top tier are truly viable to win big national tournaments. Even in Melee, Falcon was considered an amazing character and had a huge fanbase, yet even with all that, he never really won any big NATIONAL tournaments. The only characters who really won national tourneys at the tippy top level of play usually mained Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Marf... Or they were Mango. (Go Mango!)


In other words, Peach isn't a viable choice if you're one of the top 5 players in the country. Anything below that is fair game. Lucario is debatable too. To quote another Luc main, "Lucario is clinging to the hull of the ship of viable characters who can truly win tournaments... LIKE A NINJA."

In other words, Luc can win tournaments on his own up to the border of the highest level of play. Once he reaches that point, he's going to need a major shove (as well as a secondary most likely) to get him into the truly big leagues, one that Azen was able to provide, and one that I'm sure some of his dedicated followers will give him eventually.


Anyways, if you were TL;DR, anyone below Wario isn't considered viable by Yuna's standards in the tier list. Characters are perfectly viable until you become one of the top 5-15 players in the country. At that point, you had better be using someone in top tier as at least a secondary...

 

[BentoBox]

Pick up oli :D

 

[ExCeL 52]

Pick up oli :D

Lol.. I knew someone was going to come in and say that.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Player skill & Meta Knight skill are 2 different things sir.

 

[Kitamerby]

Even UmbreonMow somewhere said that Lucario's position is largely due to Azen.

This is completely and utterly false. Lucario's tier position is largely because Lucario is a very solid character as a whole. He is comprised of a superb moveset and contains excellent stats and qualities. His matchups are superb against the rest of the cast, and overall, they are in general superior to the rest of the cast below him. With only two or so truly unanimous 4:6 matchups (Marf and DDD), no disadvantages above 4:6, and relatively even matchups against the entirety of top tier minus Diddy Kong(our advantage 6:4), I'd say that we actually have a small shot at the big leagues. At least as big as Melee Falcon.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

He's just saying that one player != one character's potential. Lucario's cool and all, but he's not like Metaknight or Snake with quite a few players than win tournies. Even UmbreonMow somewhere said that Lucario's position is largely due to Azen.

This is completely and utterly false.

Even if it is true, does it matter?

Azen is Azen, but M2K is M2K, and the fact that Azen can be an exception to the rule with Lucario, but not Peach, means that Azen can use Lucario to win tournaments, but not Peach.

Azen can win tournaments with Lucario. Thus, an exceptional player can win tournaments with Lucario. Thus, Lucario can win tournaments. It doesn't matter who the player is, only the accomplishment is important, because we are discussing what characters are viable at Azen's level of play.

 

[Kitamerby]

Even if it is true, does it matter?

Azen is Azen, but M2K is M2K, and the fact that Azen can be an exception to the rule with Lucario, but not Peach, means that Azen can use Lucario to win tournaments, but not Peach.

Azen can win tournaments with Lucario. Thus, an exceptional player can win tournaments with Lucario. Thus, Lucario can win tournaments. It doesn't matter who the player is, only the accomplishment is important, because we are discussing what characters are viable at Azen's level of play.

Reflex/Ally apparently can win tournaments and beat Meta Knight/DDDs with Captain Falcon. Does that make Captain Falcon a viable character?

Your point is also moot due to the fact that when Lucario was winning with Azen, the metagame was just starting out.

 

[Natch]

Reflex/Ally apparently can win tournaments and beat Meta Knight/DDDs with Captain Falcon. Does that make Captain Falcon a viable character?

Your point is also moot due to the fact that when Lucario was winning with Azen, the metagame was just starting out.

Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning?
Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning consistantly?
Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning with the same character throughout?

Obviously not because Azen is winning those tournaments.

when Lucario was winning with Azen

Precisely.

 

[Kitamerby]

Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning?
Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning consistantly?
Are these guys winning the same tournaments Azen is winning with the same character throughout?

Obviously not because Azen is winning those tournaments.



Precisely.

Lucario mains Azen. The reverse apparently isn't true anymore. :<

 

[Panix]

How is it "fun" that in Edreeses's opinion a "perfect" Peach is better than a "perfect" Snake? And how is it "fun" that a "bad" Snake is better than a "perfect" low tier. Also, I don't think that Yuna is flaming him, he is just applying logic to this, which I agree with.

Thats his opinion that peach can be better then snake, am I suppose to give in the fact that MK is better then snake?
no, but i will try and beat any MK to prove that I think snake is better.
personal opinion's shouldn't be taken so seriously.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Reflex/Ally apparently can win tournaments and beat Meta Knight/DDDs with Captain Falcon. Does that make Captain Falcon a viable character?

Your point is also moot due to the fact that when Lucario was winning with Azen, the metagame was just starting out.

If I remember correctly, the only time Ally ever used CF was in ONE match of the Grand Finals, versus Anther's Sonic. That hardly counts as proof that CF's good. In fact, it's more proof that tournament results can be misleading.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol I love how according to this chart, low tiers can NEVER beat Snake.

It's an interesting concept but unfortunately entirely impossible to quantify.

 

[J4pu]

lol I love how according to this chart, low tiers can NEVER beat Snake.

It's an interesting concept but unfortunately entirely impossible to quantify.

what it says is at best, low tiers go 50:50 with Snake, same height=even matchup

 

[risemix]

If this thread has taught me one thing, it is that Yuna is incredibly obnoxious.

 

[Tyr_03]

Hmm sure looked lower to me lol. Anyways, the idea that a person playing Snake badly can go even with a person playing a low tier perfectly is ridiculous.

 

[PraKirJaq]

Lucario mains Azen. The reverse apparently isn't true anymore. :<

Exactly. The entire character of Lucario cannot be summed up with only Azen, but the entire Lucario community as a whole. Do they, as a whole, place well in tournaments?

MK and Snakes have shown that they do; they, as a whole, place well consistently.

We can't have one outlier determine the entire prowess of a character. That's like saying Bowser was High Tier in melee because of Gimpyfish and Gimpyfish alone.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You overestimate your main my good man.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Hello there, Sir. You seem to be a very high experience high level player. Might I ask You a few questions?

A: Would you be willing to expand this chart? I personally think that it is unfair that you would include information for just the "Tiers" and Peach, when there are people like Lucario (who deserves note for being capable of defeating MetaKnight), King DeDede (for being able to scare the you-know-what out of Snake), ZeroSuitSamus (for being sexier than Peach, and you know it), Zelda (for being a more respectable ruler than Peach and you know it) and Captain Falcon (Commedy makes everything better) who are incredibly note worthy. Also, could the tiers atleast be included by the 2nd tier list? More diversity might encourafe other players to improve their game.

B:What exactlly, during your coffee filled sermon made you think to make this chart? Is the skill of a character just how "Good" it is considered in general? is their any specific criteria on it? And also, what makes the differences between a bad player, an okay player, a well player, an amazing player, and a perfect player? And, if you decided to continue working on this still, would you consider having other experts work on this as well, making it as accurate as it could be?

And C: Do you still Brawl, possibly on Wifi? I want to make it a habbit to challenge anyone I can, wether I win or lose, to help me improve myself. You can ignore this question if you want.

Thank you for your time, sorry for any rudeness or problems, and I hope you enjoy yourself.

 

[Yuna]

Screw doing well, can those other Diddys, Snakes, and MKs win tournaments where M2K, Azen, NinjaLink, or Ally are contenders? In other words, who can win a national tournament, and what characters do they use?

By the way, since I have to prove that other Lucario's match Azen's success, you have to prove that there are other Diddy Kongs that can replicate NinjaLink's success. Or even other MKs that resemble M2K himself. These national level players are in their own league, and THAT league is the pinnacle of the metagame, as they are the ones who prove that their characters can be used to win the biggest of the major tournaments.

I have to prove there are Snakes, Diddys and MKs capable of winning national tournaments? Despite the fact that we regularly see such players place Top 7, right after M2K and Azen?

something tells me that I'm not the only one who thinks this because as stated earlier, yuna has no infractions or anything.

Actually, I have infractions. It would be a lie to claim I have no infractions. However, let's take a look at the reasons why I got these infractions:
* One-line post
* Double post

Odd, I used to like Yuna because he debated well. Then I realized that he stops all progress in a thread, forces threads into often unimportant details, and has almost no competitive knowledge of Brawl.

What progress, really? I already established several pages back that this concept of Edrees is total baloney. So I managed to, in just two posts, both pick apart Edrees inability to make it clear that he was merely trying to illustrate a concept and said concept itself.

It's called efficiency.

Seriously, never trust Yuna's "facts," it's like he doesn't actually play the game.

As opposed to yours, Mr. "Captain Falcon is as viable as anyone else and Pokémon Trainer will undoubtedly become an MK counter"?

This is Sky` on my friends account. His internet sucks, so that I can't really change without waiting like twenty minutes.

I'm assuming this really is Sky` and it'll be really easy to verify this (just have Sky` verify it next time he's logged in).

Anywho, Yeah. I was about to switch mains, because the fact of the matter is, Peach can't win tournaments by herself. I will fight to the death to this fact.

Those who say otherwise either:
1. Don't Main Peach.
2. Aren't credible, due to his or her lack of experience in high levels of competitive play.

Sky`, did you take a few hours of the same school of debating as I or something? Plagiarizing my patented "Credibility"-argument! Whoa there!

Jokes aside, assuming this really is Sky`, listen to this man, heralded by some in this thread as one of the top Peach players in the U.S. and prover of Peach's viability. Sky` himself (we're assuming) is saying that Peach isn't viable and that anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about (I'm paraphrasing).

I switched back because I also realized that I am very good with Peach, that's just the truth.

No one is denying this. And it's also irrelevant to the current discussion. What is relevant is that even you agree with me. My Wii, I was afraid you'd end up another Dark.pch, insisting for months (and maybe he still is insisting on it) that Peach can and will win tournaments, that she's amazing and whatever else he claimed half a year ago!

I'm better with peach than I am with Kirby, or anybody else. My impulsivity made me switch, and for that, I feel pretty ignorant.

No, no. Plenty of people switch due to character viability. I've done it twice for Brawl, I've done it for Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 and I'll do it for Soul Calibur IV in a week or so. It's called "Play to Win".

Without a sub that can subsist in higher levels of play, Peach stands no chance of winning a Regional, by herself. I wouldn't be suprised if she made top 15 or top 10. But otherwise, never first place.

Here endeth the lesson.

I will never accept the fact from anyone that Peach cannot win tournaments.
But anyways.. glad to hear you leave Kirby for her.

Despite zero proof that she can and ample proof that she can't? Why, because delusion is nice?

Why must people insist that their mains/favorite characters are viable when everyone else think they aren't? Why is it? Why amp the character up? As if it's going to help anyone. Are you trying to get more people to pick up Peach by lying about her potential, thus either wasting their time (if they later switch) or trapping them in the delusion (if they don't switch)? Or are you just trying to consciously downplay the skill of the great Peaches out there who are placing quite decently with her despite her relative unviability?

This delusion isn't really helping anyone.

I do think that currently, she is unDAIRrated, (Lolpun.) And she should be higher on the tier list, but she's not at a level to win regionals.

I say top of D, bottom of C, at most.

Hey guys! Settle down! The truth of the matter is that as in all fighting games, only the tippy top tier are truly viable to win big national tournaments.

This is a blatant lie.

Even in Melee, Falcon was considered an amazing character and had a huge fanbase, yet even with all that, he never really won any big NATIONAL tournaments.

Because he faced crummy matchups in, IIRC, Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth (depending on the stage for all of them, but just generally). That's four very recurring characters he has to plow through. And also, thre were very few Captain Falcon players.

He was viable, it's just that he had too few players picking him up.

In other words, Peach isn't a viable choice if you're one of the top 5 players in the country. Anything below that is fair game. Lucario is debatable too. To quote another Luc main, "Lucario is clinging to the hull of the ship of viable characters who can truly win tournaments... LIKE A NINJA."

Depending on the game, people below Top are perfectly viable. This is true for the GGXX-series, this is true for Melee.

Anyways, if you were TL;DR, anyone below Wario isn't considered viable by Yuna's standards in the tier list.

Don't claim to know my standards, please. I have no such thing as a Tier List standard for viability. But for Brawl, it is my view that only SS, S and A Tier are truly viable. Anything below that is viableish to total baloney.

Azen wins major tournaments consistently?

If I remember correctly, the only time Ally ever used CF was in ONE match of the Grand Finals, versus Anther's Sonic. That hardly counts as proof that CF's good. In fact, it's more proof that tournament results can be misleading.

And the fact that some players love the lulz.

If this thread has taught me one thing, it is that Yuna is incredibly obnoxious.

Ah, but in a debate, it is perfectly acceptable to be obnoxious if you are correct and the people you are being obnoxious to are stupid/ignorant/illogical/etc., etc., etc... that is, if you tried the "nice" approach first and it failed completely due to the aforementioned stupidity/ignorance/lack of logic/etc., etc...

You overestimate your main my good man.

Emblem Lord, where have you been?! I've missed you so much!

MK and Snakes have shown that they do; they, as a whole, place well consistently.

We can't have one outlier determine the entire prowess of a character. That's like saying Bowser was High Tier in melee because of Gimpyfish and Gimpyfish alone.

Tell The Halloween Captain that and wait as uses his logic to come to the conclusion that Bowser was, indeed, High Tier in Melee.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

tldr: If you feel the urge to prove how viable your character is, actions speak louder than words.

 

[Sky`]

The fact of the matter is, everybody sees Brawl like some Anime. I told this very same thing to Dark Peach.

"Gee whizz, With enough training and practice, I can overcome my characters bad matchups, and make it to the top, Oni Chaaan! I just have to work harder than the rest!"

This philosophy ends with B tier at Best. C tier is maaaybe possible, but B tier is realistic.

Peach subsists in neither. There are waaay to many flaws with her, for her to be a viable first place candidate. Hell, there are really only like three characters that can do it alone: MK, Falco, Snake.

But that logic, what I like to call, "Living in an Anime", is honestly used by people who haven't really experienced the feel of a professional high level competitive environment. I used to think that Drk. Pch was a credible source of information, but his lack of understanding of even his own Main leads me to believe otherwise. Those of you saying that Peach can make it, and etc, that's flattering and all, but it's just wishful thinking.

Matchups are there for a reason, and although the tierlist isn't 100% concrete (Although, for the most part... I don't think it's going to drastically change...) Take it from me. Peach isn't going to do it alone.

With this simple Example, that I said earlier with Excel, I'll restate.

Say you're in Grand Finals at a 500 Person tournament, And you banned Rainbow Cruise everytime. You play Peach, and only Peach. Heaven help you, but you managed to make it to the finals. You know why you're not going to get first? Your opponent is going to have a sub. Wanna know how I know?

You would ban Rainbow Cruise. That level pretty much ***** Peach. But they Main Falco. Are you going to take a chance on Falco's best stage? If I were you, I'd ban Japes. Uh oh! that leaves Rainbow Cruise open! Don't worry, he Mains Falco.

But then he switches to a viable character, that can not only beat peach quite easily, but can also subsist on Peaches worst stage, Rainbow Cruise. And Wammo. You just got ultimately counterpicked. And now what are you going to do? Switch to your su- Ohh. That's right. You failed to, because you decided that you wanted to spend all of your time and energy on one character.

The irony of it all? You're going to be faced with these kinds of things WAAAAAAAY before top two. Peach can't make top two by her self. Top Five would be a blessing. These kinds of situations will be seen after you make it out of pools, and every match afterward. Some other stages that peach can't really survive on? Lets see, Frigate, Against some on Delfino, Brinstar... Sooo many stages that can be CP'd against you... So many characters that can beat you... and you've only got one.

All because some people are stuck, in that Anime world.

 

[BentoBox]

This delusion isn't really helping anyone.

And it's not hurting anyone either. Diddy wasn't winning tournaments a few months ago iirc. Boss wasn't doing nearly as well with Luigi/Mario. Kirby is in C tier, and Chu has been winning his share just recently. Pikachu is one spot above, in C tier again, and well, anther, etc. You pretty much have somebody placing really well with every single character from SS to D tiers. Then dipping a bit lower, there's Snakeee and his ZSS (D tier)... and Peach is currently 3 spots below!

The difference between these players and the ones *****ing in here is that they don't waste their time holding onto theorycrafting and actually get **** done. Scale of a tournament is always questioned, but realistically, M2K is always going to skew results :D. Thing is, people will always cling onto results as facts until proven wrong. Tools. Get out there and do your thing. Then we might get somewhere.

edit:^ I love Brinstar & delfino w/ peach o,o

 

[Vulcan55]

"Gee whizz, With enough training and practice, I can overcome my characters bad matchups, and make it to the top, Oni Chaaan! I just have to work harder than the rest!"

hmm....
I liked that.

 

[Sky`]

This delusion isn't really helping anyone.

And it's not hurting anyone either. Diddy wasn't winning tournaments a few months ago iirc. Boss wasn't doing nearly as well with Luigi/Mario. Kirby is in C tier, and Chu has been winning his share just recently. Pikachu is one spot above, in C tier again, and well, anther, etc. You pretty much have somebody placing really well with every single character from SS to D tiers. Then dipping a bit lower, there's Snakeee and his ZSS (D tier)... and Peach is currently 3 spots below!

The difference between these players and the ones *****ing in here is that they don't waste their time holding onto theorycrafting and actually get **** done. Scale of a tournament is always questioned, but realistically, M2K is always going to skew results :D. Thing is, people will always cling onto results as facts until proven wrong. Tools. Get out there and do your thing. Then we might get somewhere.

edit:^ I love Brinstar & delfino w/ peach o,o

I don't like Brinstar when I'm CP'd by a GaW.
I don't like Delfino if I'm CP'd by a MK or a DDD. Well I **** DDDZ, Lololol. But yeah, you get what I'm saying.

@Yuna. Who do you main in GNT4?

 

[Sky`]

hmm....
I liked that.

Haha.
I made that theory up a while back for Real life Situations. xD

COPYRIGHT SKY AMIRITE?

 

[salaboB]

You would ban Rainbow Cruise. That level pretty much ***** Peach. But they Main Falco. Are you going to take a chance on Falco's best stage? If I were you, I'd ban Japes. Uh oh! that leaves Rainbow Cruise open! Don't worry, he Mains Falco.

But then he switches to a viable character, that can not only beat peach quite easily, but can also subsist on Peaches worst stage, Rainbow Cruise. And Wammo. You just got ultimately counterpicked. And now what are you going to do? Switch to your su- Ohh. That's right. You failed to, because you decided that you wanted to spend all of your time and energy on one character.

The irony of it all? You're going to be faced with these kinds of things WAAAAAAAY before top two. Peach can't make top two by her self. Top Five would be a blessing. These kinds of situations will be seen after you make it out of pools, and every match afterward. Some other stages that peach can't really survive on? Lets see, Frigate, Against some on Delfino, Brinstar... Sooo many stages that can be CP'd against you... So many characters that can beat you... and you've only got one.

If Peach can win the first neutral, and has at least two CP stages that are good/great for her she can select after losing the bad CP stage, your example falls apart.

If she simply can't beat the characters, a bad CP stage is unnecessary to prove she can't do it.

 

[Sky`]

If Peach can win the first neutral, and has at least two CP stages that are good/great for her she can select after losing the bad CP stage, your example falls apart.

If she simply can't beat the characters, a bad CP stage is unnecessary to prove she can't do it.

Sure. Let's go the otherway. Say she Wins on the first Neutral. Of course, I'm going to put a LOT of emphasis on the word IF. Because at Higher levels of play, higher tiers begin to exploit her for the D tier she is.

But okay, so then she wins the first one. So then my Example happens. You get CP,d and then you get *****.

Mind you, you only Use Peach. The opponent would probably guess that you only use peach, due to your ignorance when you didn't switch on a level at which Peach can't survive. Picking up on that simple fact, They are going to counterpick you, making Each Advanced Slob pick, Very advantageous for them. So then, you CP a level for Peach. A Peachy level... Hmm....

Battle Field is good for her. instant tippers on those platforms, what's not to love? You know who else is good there? Marth.
You know who ***** peach? Marth.
You know what character they are going to go? Marth.
You know what character you are going? Peach.
You know who's going to win at that high level of play, on a level where you're pretty much statistically destined to lose? Do the math.

Again. Anime logic is the downfall of many people, as they wear that facade around.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I must say that Sky is ****** this thread.

Good stuff if I do say so myself.

 

[Hive]

hmm, alright sky ^^ i agree with yous, i trust your opinion more than mine of course i thought she was pretty viable (you make her look so good lol!). in all serious though she does better than most in tourney though.

edit:also you, better watch out susannayou is totally catching up to ya lol!

Sky` himself (we're assuming) is saying that Peach isn't viable and that anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about (I'm paraphrasing).


No one is denying this. And it's also irrelevant to the current discussion. What is relevant is that even you agree with me..

lol, and you are an expert on this yuna? you basically came here with no good peach experience, never watching good peaches play irl, no clue about peach's tourney results, and no understanding of her flaws... i was wrong but at least i was basing my thoughts on something substantial. :/

and edreese has said twice in the op that it was just his opinions and only serves as a rough approximation... you are taking this way out of hand if you think he is somehow purposely trying to submit this as fact, and mislead you with the op...

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't know Peach half as well as Sky or Edress do and I could tell she was not viable within 10 minutes of playing her.

It's not hard to tell if a character is viable honestly.

You just can't let the "Smash Brothers fluff" cloud your mind.