Counterpicking Made Easy

[Deleted member]

Alright, so Rainbow Cruise sounds like a better counterpick over Norfair, but what about his worst?

What would be worse for Link:
projectile negation on Luigi's Mansion or more negative gimp opportunities on Lylat and Frigate?

luigi's mansion is a pretty good stage for link... if you can tech its a good stage

imo FO is the worst stage you could ever step foot on with link, the right side of the stage ***** you hardcore and you can lose the entire match before the stage flips if you're fighting fox or MK

 

[Deleted member]

If it's only the 2nd highest roof, go to the 1st highest stage. The risk of suiciding in the water is so high because of her ****ty jump. The sides are so close that you can die from all the top tiers so easily:

Reverse MK Up - B,

Snake F-tilt on either end platform,

Falco Spikes (or anything horizontal)

GnW d / f -smash..

..and because it's Falco's best stage, you will run into him a lot on it. It's just a stupid counter pick. If I don't get Smashville randomly, I'll counter-pick to there.

I'm still trying to figure out her best stages but it's certainly not JJ.

 

[Deleted member]

zelda's best stage is battlefield because the platforms give you a greater chance to bair/fair or uair them

feel free to disagree with me meno, but i feel that peach's worst stage has to be LC because the tilting kills your instant float and the ledges don't help either.

 

[Cod]

I don't know if it's necessarily his best, but DK is great on Luigi's Mansion. Down B ***** on the lower levels, and you can hide behind the pillars against projectile spammers. Plus his great range lends itself well to cramped areas. Honestly, I don't know why PS1 is listed right now. Is there something there I'm missing?

 

[Bakithi]

Sheik-Best- Battllefield - Reason: She has a good aerial game, with the platforms you can play many mindgames, Sheik may recover from nearly anywhere as long as she isn't edgehogged. The platforms help her play mindgames with the needles, if an enemy is on the platform above you and you upsmash, so far for me its been a 100% "sweetspotted" (I used that term loosely) up-smash and is powerful. Her Teleports can hit people on the platforms as well. she can more easily gimp (and sometimes KO) and recover here.

Zelda- Best-Smashville - Reason: small enough to actually spike with her, and her sweespot kick has an easier time KO'ing then Final D, plus she can recover from basically any point in the stage including a "Din's Fire Recovery" and still be saved by the platform if they try to edgehog, if you want to say FD then I guess it depends more on if you use Dins Fire more

I don't really have any "worst" picks, because they both do good on neutral stages, and I haven't really played any matches with counterpicks.

I very much agree, nicely put, bro. ^_~

And this is a very nice guide... although I don't completely agree with the Dedede part. That's just me being odd, though. -.-

 

[deepseadiva]

If it's only the 2nd highest roof, go to the 1st highest stage. The risk of suiciding in the water is so high because of her ****ty jump.

The first highest is New Pork City. >_>
And honestly the water is WAY more of a boon to Peach than it is a disadvantage. Her second jump does not play a factor if she falls in the water. She jumps, then floats back. It's simple.

ALL the other characters are going to have a harder time though - due to their lack of instant, and I mean instant, horizontal recovery.

All Peach has to go is knock them off, float above the edge ready to insta-gimp, and the water will do the rest (unless they can come above of course). Every other character has to knock her off, and then reengage in ledge combat as usual.

The sides are so close that you can die from all the top tiers so easily:

Reverse MK Up - B,

Snake F-tilt on either end platform,

Falco Spikes (or anything horizontal)

GnW d / f -smash..

All these are going to kill Peach anywhere. She is light and will die on the edge of Battlefield from these moves. So the boundaries are no more of a danger to Peach as they are elsewhere - but they do help Peach due to one of her weaknesses: she can't KO. Suddenly her fair can kill 30% earlier, and coupled with the water, the stage basically kills for her.

..and because it's Falco's best stage, you will run into him a lot on it. It's just a stupid counter pick. If I don't get Smashville randomly, I'll counter-pick to there.

I'm still trying to figure out her best stages but it's certainly not JJ.

Did I mention that Peach's usmash, one of the top 5 strongest in the cast, kills everybody even with the sky roof? The same can't be said about MK, Snake, Falco, or Game & Watch.

A good player wouldn't counterpick another character's best stage, even if it's their own. That would be a poor counterpick choice.

So, let me summarize. Jungle Japes:
- Compliments the float tremendously - a completly exclusive technique I'll remind.
- Postpones vertical kills at her, but Peach's own KO's are unaffected.
- and allows her to KO more easily, one of her major flaws.

zelda's best stage is battlefield because the platforms give you a greater chance to bair/fair or uair them

feel free to disagree with me meno, but i feel that peach's worst stage has to be LC because the tilting kills your instant float and the ledges don't help either.

Hanenbow used to be her agreed upon "worst stage" - but seeing as that got hit by the ban hammer, I removed it. A vote for Lylat you say?

 

[Razmakazi]

Skyworld FTL for DK and Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

...thats not legal....

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't know if it's necessarily his best, but DK is great on Luigi's Mansion. Down B ***** on the lower levels, and you can hide behind the pillars against projectile spammers. Plus his great range lends itself well to cramped areas. Honestly, I don't know why PS1 is listed right now. Is there something there I'm missing?

This person voted for PS1:

Delfino plaza is certainly not the best stage for DK. Pokemon Stadium 1 is, its very easy to stage spike with the cargo toss, and the terrain can discourage camping; campers give DK a hard time.

Though Luigi's sounds like it has all the same benefits as PS, with some added extras. I'll change it.

And this is a very nice guide... although I don't completely agree with the Dedede part. That's just me being odd, though. -.-

Feel free to adjust and argue.
For empty slots I'm going with the whatever-anyone-says thing. But if there's a challenge to something already posted I'll try and put in some common sense and a bit of debate myself - unless another person agrees with the change.
This way we can arrive to a general consensus quickly and democratically.

...thats not legal....

Wha? Hanenbow isn't of course. Lylat is...

 

[Deleted member]

Wha? Hanenbow isn't of course. Lylat is...

lylat is neutral (at least all the tournaments ive been to)

i was talking about skyworld not being legal

 

[Blackbelt]

lylat is neutral (at least all the tournaments ive been to)

i was talking about skyworld not being legal

But it is. (Or at least it can be)


Anyway, I notice Mario is empty.

My views:

Best Stage: Battlefield. Mario's fast aerials can abuse the platforms, it's a small stage so campy opponents aren't a problem, and the boundaries aren't ridiculously large, so Mario can KO (and gimp) well.

Worst: Onett: Ground stage=no gimping=half of Mario's talents wasted.

 

[Hype]

good idea for a thread.

 

[PKSkyler]

So I have a question. Say Im fighting an ROB player and I lose the first match. Do I counter pick ROB`s disadvantage,Green Greens, where I can camp PKT and use PKT and PKF to explodedbombs, or should I go for Ness` advantage and counter pick Delphino Plaza, where I can use the water to my advantage?

Or counter pick Corneria? (I like to heal...)

 

[Deleted member]

So I have a question. Say Im fighting an ROB player and I lose the first match. Do I counter pick ROB`s disadvantage,Green Greens, where I can camp PKT and use PKT and PKF to explodedbombs, or should I go for Ness` advantage and counter pick Delphino Plaza, where I can use the water to my advantage?

Or counter pick Corneria? (I like to heal...)

thats the main question you have to ask yourself before picking a stage, go for your advantage or your opponent's disadvantage. this decision isn't set in stone, you have to think about it during the match, think about how your opponent plays and how you think he would react to certain cituations.

say the rob you're playing is a camper that uses the gyro and laser a lot. if you pick green greens he'll just camp and wont approach you at all, you're pkt is too slow to connect before his laser or gyro so green greens probably wouldnt be your best bet. he also has the >B to reflect your projectiles.

Now if the rob you are playing is aggressive then green greens will be an amazing stage. Ness's bthrow kills at ridiculously low %'s and the bair will **** hardcore.

 

[Vect0r]

wait, Lylat Cruise is Wolf's worst stage? It's his own darn stage!

 

[Shy Guy 86]

wait, Lylat Cruise is Wolf's worst stage? It's his own darn stage!

Its also Fox and Falco's worst stage....

Rainbow Cruise for worst to DDD? I'm no DDD main but the moving part reduces his CG's

 

[Xeze]

Anyway, I notice Mario is empty.

My views:

Best Stage: Battlefield. Mario's fast aerials can abuse the platforms, it's a small stage so campy opponents aren't a problem, and the boundaries aren't ridiculously large, so Mario can KO (and gimp) well.

Worst: Onett: Ground stage=no gimping=half of Mario's talents wasted.

On the Best Stage I agree. Additionally he can Cape Glide from one platform to another. And the top platform is good for Tornado Kills.

On the worst stage, I disagree. Although Mario cannot gimp there, the side blast lines are close so his fsmash and back throws can kick some serious butt. IMO his worst stage is Pictochat (especially when those side spikes are "drawn").

 

[Dotcom]

Good list.. but don't you think the stages you use should all be legal?
That would be a lot better for people who look at this for a tourney decision.
Maybe you could do it like:


Captain Falcon:
Distant Planet(Non Tourney)
Battlefield..idk(Tourney)


I know most tourneys legal stage list differ but if you used the SBR reccomended legal stages it would make way more sense.

 

[deepseadiva]

lylat is neutral (at least all the tournaments ive been to)

i was talking about skyworld not being legal

Yeah, it's currently on the ban/counter list - meaning it's up to the tourney organizers to specify whether it is or isn't legal in their own tourney.

I'll leave it up, and if another more legal stage shows up - I'll switch it or put it next to it or something. It'll depend.

Good list.. but don't you think the stages you use should all be legal?
That would be a lot better for people who look at this for a tourney decision.
Maybe you could do it like:


Captain Falcon:
Distant Planet(Non Tourney)
Battlefield..idk(Tourney)


I know most tourneys legal stage list differ but if you used the SBR reccomended legal stages it would make way more sense.

I am using the SBR's list (Distant Planet being a definite counter >_>). Though once this list starts becoming crowded I might follow your example for the more etchy counter/ban stages.

 

[Colbert]

Why is Norfair considered Zamus' best stage? I know it helps recovering but a good Zamus shouldn't be getting gimped at all anyway. It doesn't benefit the armor pieces well either. I still think it's a good stage but I personally think her best is Battlefield because the platforms improve her game a lot. Her spacing game is also better here.

Zamus also does well on Luigi's Mansion d/t
Dthrow > Dsmash > Dsmash > Grab > Dthrow > Dsmash > Dsmash etc.....

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think that a big descrepancy with this list is that many people are either not used to, or just straight up dont play all of the CP stages so they might not be informed enough to judge on all the available prospects, so they just judge based on the stages they play on... not much you can do about that but just my 2 cents

anyway
both of sonics choices are wrong, imo
final destination encourages camping and spamming way more than it promotes sonics grounds speed. and the blastlines are way too big for sonic to be effective.
His actual best is most likely corneria, its blastlines are so small that on the left side his back throw can actually kill, and up airs can kill at as low as 55%. and if you are a sonic player you know how redonkulous that is. forward smash can kill under 100 as well. and since sonic is a middle weight character that happens to be somewhat small, the small stage size works for him much much more than it works against him. hes going to die from attacks that would kill him anyway, while he is going to have opponents saying "WTF Howd sonic kill me that low!?"
i also dont think greens is his worst stage, id have to award that honor to pictochat. hes going to get hit by hazards, which makes it easier for him to die, and the layout of the stage just refuses to let him kill anything until stupid high %s

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

You should list multiple choices for best and worst for each character. If they ban your best and their worst, now what? (many tournaments allow 2 stage bans) Also do be aware that not all tournaments use the same lists for legal stages. I've been to tournaments that banned some of the stages that you have listed for characters as good, and others that have ridiculous legal stages.

Also if you're stubborn like me, and only play one character, learn all the stages really well. I mean all the ones legal at the tournaments you regularly attend. It should be part of learning character matchups. A lot of these stage picks are character matchup specific. Is it better to go with your best, or their worst? Sometimes their best, or even their 2nd or 3rd best is better for them than your best in general is for you. Also, if they forget to ban their worst, it's often better than your best stage. What are their 2nd and 3rd worst stages for the matchup? (depending on how many bans you're allowed) Also make sure to learn how to fight on your 3rd worst stage for each matchup. (you're banning the 2 worst, right?) Your worst in general isn't necessarily your worst in every matchup.

For example, Luigi's Mansion is a great stage for Lucario, in certain matchups. I wouldn't counterpick it against Rob or MK, because it's better for them than for me. Also, against Olimar, it's better to go to one of his worst, such as Rainbow Cruise, than it is to go to Luigi's Mansion, because Olimar can actually do something there other than getting gimped. A general example is Ike on Delfino. Excellent vs. characters with no spike and no way to abuse walk offs, not nearly as good against the rest.

In general: Lucario's best stages are any with a high ceiling, relatively close walls, clingable sides, and anything that'll keep him alive longer such as techable surfaces. High ceilings and techable surfaces keep him alive, closer walls allow for side KOs, clingable sides make his recovery better. Best stages in general = Luigi's Mansion, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island, Frigate. Worst stages have low ceilings, because he can't vertical KO unless he's in high %'s, and most characters can vertical KO him on low ceiling stages long before he can. Such as: Green Greens, Corneria

 

[dawgbowl]

I'm surprised no one has said Animal Crossing for Snake as best. He can still slide with ease and can make great use of the moving platform with his mines. His mortar I think is the only thing that could be negative as if it hits the above platform instead of landing next to him... but that I don't know.

and yes, Norfair is absolutely Lucas's best CP.
As for his worst, Luigi's mansion gives PK fire some hell and weaving PK thunder's in there is difficult too... I really hate that stage when I'm playing Lucas.

 

[deepseadiva]

Why is Norfair considered Zamus' best stage? I know it helps recovering but a good Zamus shouldn't be getting gimped at all anyway. It doesn't benefit the armor pieces well either. I still think it's a good stage but I personally think her best is Battlefield because the platforms improve her game a lot. Her spacing game is also better here.

I agree with the gimping thing, but you suggest Battlefield huh?
Someone else suggested Pokemon Stadium 1 - it complements the armor pieces, edges are decent, room to recover, and the changing layouts give Zamus the advantage as her attacks can go through them. Thoughts?

i think that a big descrepancy with this list is that many people are either not used to, or just straight up dont play all of the CP stages so they might not be informed enough to judge on all the available prospects, so they just judge based on the stages they play on... not much you can do about that but just my 2 cents

I know...
But what I'm hoping for is all the respected mainers for X character have decided upon best/worst and it'll be common knowledge to them. Yet we have yet to hear about it. Then this list comes in.

You should list multiple choices for best and worst for each character. If they ban your best and their worst, now what? (many tournaments allow 2 stage bans) Also do be aware that not all tournaments use the same lists for legal stages. I've been to tournaments that banned some of the stages that you have listed for characters as good, and others that have ridiculous legal stages.

Maybe in the future this thread will evolve into a full compendium for each character's stage advantages, but as of now I'll keep it simple. The goal at the moment is to provide an at-a-glance list to assist in counter-picking.

"What exactly is Meta Knight's best stage? I need to ban that and I don't know."
*finds thread to holy music*

 

[K 2]

That was a great video by gimpyfish on counterpicking.

 

[Serris]

Update:

Samus's worst stage is probably either Rainbow Cruise or Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2. People with superior aerial games can pressure her easily on Rainbow Cruise, and it's possible to infinite her on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2.

Since Mushroomy Kingdom is banned, the obvious choice is Rainbow Cruise for Samus's worst stage.

 

[Izaw]

Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise
Worst: Frigate Orpheon

Just simply WRONG

The best stage for Link is Norfair

 

[Deleted member]

Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise
Worst: Frigate Orpheon

Just simply WRONG

The best stage for Link is Norfair

i dont think so sir

RC has proved time and time again that it is a better stage to pick than norfair because of stage control and the ability to trap your opponents in bad situations. The constant moving of the stage puts both players on defense because approaching is so risky, which 99% of the time link will win when it comes to defense. You should know this already Izaw T_T

plus norfair isn't legal in most tournaments

 

[Dabuz]

kirby:worst: luigis mansion because he doesnt have much room to manuever and do his airials to a great extent forcing a mainly ground game which isnt his best aspect of fighting, especially when he normally played defensively

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falcos worst stage is norfair b/c he can't CG and the lava prevents spikes to some extent
Wolfs best stage is Smashville

 

[deepseadiva]

So I'm starting to think no one really does pay attention to Weegee. His character board fails in stage threads. Any Luigi mains out there?

 

[Daimonster]

Kirby
Best: Brinstar
Reason 1-Takes care of kirby's approach problem due to the compact space.
2-can kill with f.smash at about 30% lower than most other stages (excluding corneria, green greens and other short blast zone stages)
3-Allows kirby to play a very strong air game
Worst:Yoshis Island (Pipes)
Reasons: Simply my opinion. I do not have enough strong arguments as to why this is his worst stage.

 

[deepseadiva]

So I've made a light edit to the OP - I've added links to each of the character names to their respective boards. If anyone would like to do some minor scavenging for "best/worst stage" for some of the thirty-two characters, that'd be productive.

Worst:Yoshis Island (Pipes)
Reasons: Simply my opinion. I do not have enough strong arguments as to why this is his worst stage.

Thoughts on Luigi's Mansion? Apparently it restricts Kirby's aerial capabilities...

 

[Daimonster]

Thoughts on Luigi's Mansion? Apparently it restricts Kirby's aerial capabilities...

Luigi's Mansion left or right portioned area should be broken down asap as kirby. This can be done by attacking the top portion with d.air and n.air (save your fresh moves). This map is actually a very good stage for kirby. His b.air and f.smash can be freshened by attacking the stage and kirby has no problem getting horizontal blast zone KO's. In addition, kirby can neutral.B + sh backwards + DI towards middle of the stage and gimp some characters.

The only reason why I don't believe this is one of Kirby's best stages is solely because he still has the problem of approaching his toughest matchups ie. Marth etc.

edit: you can freshen kirby's b.air and f.smash on brinstar as well.

 

[Deleted member]

i'm a good luigi player, T!mmy said so lol :D

Best: Battlefield

the platforms help out luigi's combos a lot and they set up for up b kills
luigi can also recover from any part of the map

luigi doesn't have a bad stage :\ luigi is like high tier in this game, but nobody plays him so he'll be stuck at low/mid

 

[deepseadiva]

Luigi's Mansion left or right portioned area should be broken down asap as kirby. This can be done by attacking the top portion with d.air and n.air (save your fresh moves). This map is actually a very good stage for kirby.

That sounds like a contradiction though. If Kirby has to actually fight around the stage and actively work to set it to the right configurations, I'd say that's negative toward him.

His b.air and f.smash can be freshened by attacking the stage and kirby has no problem getting horizontal blast zone KO's. In addition, kirby can neutral.B + sh backwards + DI towards middle of the stage and gimp some characters.

Really any character can refresh any of their moves on Luigi's. Though the high ceiling would be in Kirby's favor due to his light weight.

luigi doesn't have a bad stage :\ luigi is like high tier in this game, but nobody plays him so he'll be stuck at low/mid

Everybody has a bad stage. It's just Luigi's metagame is evolving so incredibly slow - they're not to "Worst stages" yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Everybody has a bad stage. It's just Luigi's metagame is evolving so incredibly slow - they're not to "Worst stages" yet.

i play a really sick luigi and i really don't see him having a bad stage. stages with platforms help him out a lot but he can still **** hardcore on stages without platforms and stuff

since his recovery is so good stages like fd, lc and fo don't really effect him at all, so those maps are out of the question.

 

[DMK.]

Olimar's best stage is actually Battlefield, not Norfair. He does very well on platform stages, and the problem with Norfair is the lava kills pikimin instantly. It's actually a counterpick against Olimar.

His worst stage is easily Rainbow Cruise. He has a hard time keeping up with the stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've always been under the impression that Luigi's Mansion was a good Lucas stage. DSmash and USmash last forever when used on the pillars (and USmash tags people on the second floor when used on the ground) and PK Thunder doesn't care about them in the first place. Steering it on the bottom floor can be difficult at best, but it turns sharply enough to not get absorbed by the ceiling iirc. PK Fire can also form a barrier of sorts if used on the pillars, but it's not as effective as Ness's. That and Ness doesn't rely on PK Fire the same way Lucas does. But since you can destroy parts of the mansion, it should be relatively simple (in theory) to clear out select areas to use PK Fire in. And you can use DTilt in quick succession to restore staled moves if you find yourself a few seconds of free time.

 

[.Marik]

I'm always Yoshi, so I find that Port Town is an excellent stage for him, and I also love that stage, so that is an natural counter-stage for me to pick. Even though I'd still choose it even if I wasn't losing matches.