Counterpicking Made Easy

[Some_Kind_of_JokÈ?]

...if skyworld is banned ...whats Marths worst stage.
and why is Skyworld bad for him?

 

[Amide]

I really think Brinstair is a better Puff stage than Delfino. Water Cancelled rest is so situational, and its more neutral than Brinstair, more characters do better on Delfino.

 

[geekd]

Olimar's best stage is actually Battlefield, not Norfair. He does very well on platform stages, and the problem with Norfair is the lava kills pikimin instantly. It's actually a counterpick against Olimar.

His worst stage is easily Rainbow Cruise. He has a hard time keeping up with the stage.

bf is actually more neutral and norfair is great for olimar because all the edges make him ungimpable. I've never had a problem with the lava? I'd say that luigis mansion is his best stage though; his pikmin are one of the only projectiles that can go though the walls and the ceilings allow him to lace usmashes together very nicely.

 

[deepseadiva]

...if skyworld is banned ...whats Marths worst stage.
and why is Skyworld bad for him?

Skyworld is, according to the SBR, "kinda banned, but not really", so until someone can post a worse stage for Marth that's legal-er, it'll stay up. As to WHY it's bad for Marth, I dunno - for the empty slots I'm going with whatever poster-joe says.

MARTH MAINS WHERE ARE YOU???

I really think Brinstair is a better Puff stage than Delfino. Water Cancelled rest is so situational, and its more neutral than Brinstair, more characters do better on Delfino.

Please elaborate on why Brinstar is specifically better for Jiggly.

 

[Amide]

Because Jigglypuff can abuse her air game well on Brinstar. Anyways, I'm not too sure if Brinstar is best. But it's not Delfino. You can't rest a good player out of water anyways, but here's the thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194363

 

[Flipstar]

Luigi's mansion is in the wrong place for kirby.(judging from the comments saying that it was bad)


I'd say Kirby's best stage is Rainbow cruise. The initial ride doesn't really give him an advantage, but after the boat sinks, it's smooth sailing. Your opponent is basically forced to jump around and keep going up and up, and doesn't really have the time to fight on the ground. Basically, against slow people and people with bad aerials games, Kirby wins on this stage. Kirby can get an easy gimp with his dair since the bottom is so open. After rising up, and when you start to go to the right, Kirby can simply up throw them to death due to the low ceiling.

 

[CR4SH]

IMO luigi's best stage is brinstar. Battlefield is good, but brinstar has so many advantages for luigi. First and foremost, it forces people into the air, not only because of the lava, but the general setup of the stage as well. Also, the snot platforms help to keep people from projectile-gimping luigi's recovery. Not to mention luigi can just down-b up through the floor, for an easy recovery and often a suprise hit which forces them into the air again. On top of all this, you can abuse all your moves on this stage with luigi, because while people are getting back to the stage you can just spam fireballs at any of the destructable parts of the stage to get your ko moves back.

This stage is simply stacked for luigi.

As for the worst stage? I'd say probably FD, simply because it limits his aerial options.

(if you didn't already know, luigi game=air game)

 

[Vyse]

Rainbow Cruise is probably worse for Diddy than Norfair.

But I don't know. It's hard to give a single worst stage because of small nuances in different players styles : /

EDIT:

I thought about it for a few more than a few seconds after posting and decided Norfair probably is the worst stage for him, but even that is subjective to how one decides to use the bananas. The Peanut gun would wreak havoc on that stage.

 

[Swordplay]

Link
Best: Rainbow Cruise
Worst: Frigate Orpheon

Just simply WRONG

The best stage for Link is Norfair

I'm also going to agree with Izaw.

Norfair is Links best stage.

However, Norfair vs Rainbow cruise is one of the most highly contested debates in the Link forums. Most Links will probably say Norfair because of what players like Deva can do on it and the way Link projectiles work. Others will say RC because they are able to control and manipulate the course with bombs.

Link is actually not bad on the second part of frigate. It is the 1st part that gets him. I could probably think of a worse stage.

 

[Morrigan]

Good thread. *subscribe*

 

[peeup]

I might suggest that FD is Yoshi's best stage. Its pretty much the only stage he can CG on (except for a little bit in SV, but that's situational.) I don't really know how Delfino gives him any advantage, could somebody clear that up for me?

 

[Metro Knight]

that list is total crap, it needs to be much larger, and more accurate. And give reasons why these stages are good for those characters

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Something for the OP: Brinstar is DKs best stage

 

[Fatmanonice]

It absolutely drives me nuts how this thread isn't getting more attention. Counterpicking is very important in Brawl and hardly anyone cares. Seriously, will Metaknight have to win 90% of all the tournaments before people start to think "hmm, maybe it's not just the character we need to be thinking about."

 

[deepseadiva]

that list is total crap, it needs to be much larger, and more accurate. And give reasons why these stages are good for those characters

Read: It's not done yet - in the least.

I've been thinking a lot of expanding it though, a top three best and worst maybe?

Something for the OP: Brinstar is DKs best stage

List says Luigi's Mansion.
Care to elaborate? I imagine due to the lava and his gross recovery.

It absolutely drives me nuts how this thread isn't getting more attention. Counterpicking is very important in Brawl and hardly anyone cares. Seriously, will Metaknight have to win 90% of all the tournaments before people start to think "hmm, maybe it's not just the character we need to be thinking about."

On the MetaKnight note I'll interject that it DIES on Green Greens. His ranged attacks occasionally attack the bombs and his lightweight and the tight quarters do not mix well.

 

[Ilucamy]

Time to make some input:
Lucario is also good on Yoshi's island (brawl) since he gets to cling to the edge of the stage so easily, it helps fight against edgehoggers. This is also available on FD, but it's a little more difficult and slightly less effective.

Zamus is good on any stage with multiple platforms since her whip reaches through them. Mainly battlefield and Lylat Cruise.

If you're gonna make a top 3
Lucario: Luigi's Mansion, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), FD
Zamus: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2

Just my opinion, I'm not sure about the worst stages though.

 

[Affinity]

Jungle Japes is pretty bad for G&W.

 

[solitonmedic]

What's Counterpicking?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

two things I noticed

1. DK's best is either luigi's mansion, brinstar, or jungle japes depending on the matchup. of the 3 luigi's is probably the least used of the three

and luigi's best stage is not brinstar, luigi's best kill moves are vertical, he does ridiculous stuff on corneria

brinstar is best for people with good horizontal kill moves, luigi's three main kill moves are nair, fsmash, and uppercut, so stages with low ceilings, like corneria, allow him to kill extremely low

 

[Morrigan]

What's Counterpicking?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Counterpick

 

[chetjan]

Why is Yoshi Island bad for MK?

 

[Morrigan]

Probably because his light weight and really close blastzones (upper and left) allow characters to kill him early, but generally it's a bad stage for all lightweight and/or floaty characters. I wouldn't recommend counterpicking Melee's Yoshi Island against Meta using Jigglypuff, for example. Also, the blocks in the stage can mess up his UpB.

 

[deepseadiva]

Alrighty people. As per request, the list is now expanded to fit each character's top three best and worst. Hopefully this'll give players more leeway at tournaments and leave things more open to debate.

And, once again, I'll remind you all to please give reasons when suggesting changes. Here's an example:

Jungle Japes is pretty bad for G&W.

I'll add this - though with reluctance.

Doesn't the high ceiling compliment his light weight, the close sides his horizontal KO power, and the river his excellent recovery?

 

[Affinity]

Doesn't the high ceiling compliment his light weight

It makes G&Ws vertical KOs much more difficult to pull off. (U-smash, D-smash, etc.)

the close sides his horizontal KO power

The G&W is going to want to control the center part of the level, not being so close to the sides.

and the river his excellent recovery?

No, this is the main reason I said JJ.

G&W recovers safely by going below the level of the ledge and then recovering up; that becomes difficult for him here.



EDIT: Battlefield is definitely one of DK's best levels. The platforms are great for him, and the sides of the level are easy to cargo hold stage-spike on.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I am going to say that brinstar is really good for snake because his simplest camping techniques on the bottom level make him close to untouchable, you can up tilt almost any approach, and if you misstime a nade and throw it over the opponents head the mucus walls will bounce it right back, and up air and up smash keep the top platform entirely contained, and even if you do get to the bottom platform against snake, the hilly layout makes it hard to get through the mortar slides and forward tilts.

also everyone in this thread link the thread to a knowledgable (i stress that part very much) person on the boards. this needs more discussion

 

[Yikarur]

I use Norfair as a counterpick with my Yoshi against some foes because I think Norfair is a very good stage for Yoshi.
Yoshi has a long air dodge while double jumping.
This is useful to dodge the fire thing in the air.

and can you add reasons for the stages below each character? For Example I can't understand why Bowsers best Stage is Norfair or CF Distant Planet.

oh and I'm german My grammar isn't perfect

 

[deepseadiva]

EDIT: Battlefield is definitely one of DK's best levels. The platforms are great for him, and the sides of the level are easy to cargo hold stage-spike on.

Out of the three best stages posted, would you replace Battlefield with any of them? (Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes)

I use Norfair as a counterpick with my Yoshi against some foes because I think Norfair is a very good stage for Yoshi.
Yoshi has a long air dodge while double jumping.
This is useful to dodge the fire thing in the air.

and can you add reasons for the stages below each character? For Example I can't understand why Bowsers best Stage is Norfair or CF Distant Planet.

oh and I'm german My grammar isn't perfect

Yoshi already has three best stages - would you believe Norfair should replace Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, or Port Town Aero Drive on the list?


As for adding reasons to the stages, partly as a design choice and partly as a lack of necessity I'll leave them out.

They would be very hard to maintain - seeing as the list is constantly changing, and plus all of the info can be found in the thread itself by posters Click "search thread" to find out.

 

[Prancing Mad]

I think Norfair is just one of those stages that is good for many characters. Any strong character should not have too much difficulty there since there are many options for ledges to grab on, and most importantly, the level is easily abused.

Consider this if a weak character hits a low % strong guy, where is he gonna go? Pretty well nowhere. If a strong character lands a hit on a weak character, even at low %, they can go far enough. So shoving a weak character into a wall of lava becomes much easier, thus making it easier for a heavy to rack up damage on a weak.

 

[MysticKenji]

Ike
Best: Corneria, Green Greens, ??? (Brinstar or Pirate Ship imo)
Worst: Jungle Japes, Frigate, ??? (Mansion or Cruise imo)

I added my opinion to Ike's best and worst.

EDIT: And I'm seconding the addition of Brinstar to Snake's best.

 

[Morrigan]

I can't see how Pictochat is Mario's worst stage, any Mario mainer wants to answer?

 

[deepseadiva]

On [Onett], I disagree. Although Mario cannot gimp there, the side blast lines are close so his fsmash and back throws can kick some serious butt. IMO his worst stage is Pictochat (especially when those side spikes are "drawn").

I can't see how Pictochat is Mario's worst stage, any Mario mainer wants to answer?

That would be the reasoning for the initial change - we REALLY more need imput from the character boards though.

I mean, look at Pikachu's counterpicks.

 

[Morrigan]

Pictochat can screw up lots of characters because of the different shapes. I don't see how they affect Mario specifically. I don't know...that stage looks like a counterpick against every character (including YOURS).

 

[Affinity]

Out of the three best stages posted, would you replace Battlefield with any of them? (Luigi's Mansion, Brinstar, and Jungle Japes)

Luigi's Mansion, but if I were you I'd try to get a knowledgeable DK main to confirm this.


EDIT: Delfino Plaza is definitely in his top 3 as well. Walls allow for D-tilt infinites, the areas with water allow easy cargo-spike setups, and walk-offs allow for easier throw kills.

I'd personally remove Jungle Japes for Delfino, but like I said: I'd ask a knowledgeable DK main just in case.

 

[deepseadiva]

Sooo...
Yeah...

Any DK mains around?

 

[Xona]

For Bowser

Best:
Starter: Battlefield
CP: Norfair
Banned: Big Blue

Best Legal: Norfair


Worst:
Starter: fd
CP: Distant planet
Banned: bridge or Any Circle

Worst Legal: fd

I use Bowser a lot and these are my points of view, these are merely oppinions. I don't actually have a main, but Bowser is one of my best characters.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Luigi's Mansion, but if I were you I'd try to get a knowledgeable DK main to confirm this.


EDIT: Delfino Plaza is definitely in his top 3 as well. Walls allow for D-tilt infinites, the areas with water allow easy cargo-spike setups, and walk-offs allow for easier throw kills.

I'd personally remove Jungle Japes for Delfino, but like I said: I'd ask a knowledgeable DK main just in case.

battlefield is his favorite neutral, but it isn't one of his top 3, neither is delfino, though it is good for him

he can just do so much stupid stuff on luigis, japes, and brinstar

Luigi's - He can camp, and his downb will now usually do 50% due to bouncing, sure you can tech it, but if you tech wrong you wind up back in it, that and punching or fsmashing the pillar to prolong the hitbox works sooo well, also, he lives forever, literally

cbk is unbeaten in tournament here

Japes - your grab becomes a kill move, since you can stage spike into the river from the stage, which can kill if you use the left platform. you no longer have recovery problems, because if you hit the water, you can upb back almost every time. you can fly between the ledges to become a real pain to hit. it takes a little adjusting as bair, fsmash, and grab become your only reliable kill moves, but once you get it down it is your best stage. you won't die off the top, but your usmash is strong enough to kill off the top in the 90 - 130 range

only stage where dk is even with dedede

dks best stage, truly his house, if you lose its because you haven't learned the timing on the croc

Brinstar - dk kills you at dumb percents, like 25 with 9 wind punches, downb spans the entire bottom, your vertical recovery isn't a problem thanks to lava, and the stage hitboxes extend the active frames on punch and fsmash

ripple thinks this is dks best stage

 

[CaliburChamp]

Can you please include banned counterstages for friendly matches?

 

[brightnocturn]

brilliant thread... easy to read, structured, simple, gives you all the information you'd need

kudos!

 

[Deoxys]

MK's best stage is Rainbow Cruise against most characters.

 

[deepseadiva]

Can you please include banned counterstages for friendly matches?

Banned stages...
This site, in general, leans more toward competitive standards, and overall it would be difficult to gather good data regarding each character's best and worst banned stages when most players here rarely, if ever, play on them.