DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

[Doc King]

I'm only talking about Puff a lot because of what I've discovered and I'm very proud for what I have come up with and I think it's very cool. That's mainly why I'm so hype over it.

We should find other good stuff of other matchups we would encounter. We should also find out what we can do with every team combination that involves D3, so we can know what would be the best teams and worst teams for specific matchups.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Best team: MK and Dedede

 

[Exdeath]

To y'all mocking Doc King for repeatedly posting about Jigglypuff, I had a pony match (pretty much what it sounds like) with someone and they used straight Jigglypuff, so it was definitely relevant to me.

4GOD: I beat Mampam in tournament this past weekend. I never got to money match Ice Climbers because 2/3 of them were leaving ~when you did.

 

[Doc King]

Best team: MK and Dedede

lol. I'm not surprised by that considering how broken mk is.

I would prefer to talk about other teams besides mk too because mk is gonna get banned soon. We will just leave this note for TC when he goes to Apex.

 

[DewDaDash]

yo team of the future, ddd + ike

 

[da K.I.D.]

ike is actually really good in teams.

random throw in to ike anything

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ike probably is pretty decent with Dedede because Dedede is a good stock tanker, and dthrow to Ike Fsmash would probably work.

In theory!

Also in regards Jigglypuff and the DI thing from dthrow, the frame advantage looks like this:

[collapse=Jigglypuff]1: +0
2: +0
3: +0
4: +0
5: +0
6: -1
7: -1
8: -1
9: -1[/collapse]

So Jigglypuff can just air dodge, land and jump away (shield is her best option though imo) after a dthrow. You miiiiight be able to techchase with ftilt, but that'll only work if they standing tech. If Jiggs was closer, you'd be able to get a strong ftilt out of dthrow, but unfortunately she lands too far away to be hit by the frame 11 hit (And if she buffers a shield, the frame 12 onward part of ftilt will be perfect shielded.)

Soz to throw a blanket over that almost metagame changing find.

jiggly can't DI the throw guys d-throw -> u-smash confirmed to work

 

[shaSLAM]

ive actually done d3 with ike.
we didnt lose a match....

it was pretty killer actually. ddd is stocking and limit mobility and playing zone while ike is hitting people for like 30 damage with each attack.

you can trap them you cover their landing on the ground options with ddd to where they have to do an unsafe aerial towards ike for 30 some percent. no lie its actually a really good team. both characters are like made for each other. i dont like teaming with characters with projectiles blah.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The only problem is Ike is so gimpable. lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

The only problem is Ike is so gimpable. lol

lolwow, people still believe this?

 

[Xubble]

Compared to most other characters, Ike is indeed very susceptible to gimping. The only other characters who are worse off (that come straight to mind) are Link and Ganon.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ There are several others who fair worse than Ike in the recovery department.

 

[dean.]

Even characters with "gimpable" recoveries usually recover most of the time due to Brawl's physics except vs. like Meta Knight (there are exceptions). Ike's recovery will get him back on stage most of the time and that's all you really need to expect from it.

 

[Xubble]

The way I see it, Ike can either go straight up (and down, lolz), or completely horizontal. Quick Draw sucks pretty badly and doesn't help Ike when he's below the stage, and Ike just seems to have a bigger "I'm ****ed if I'm here" zone than anybody else. Besides Link, who is screwed over when he goes out beyond two inches. Ganon can at LEAST go a tad more diagonal with his upb and potentially sweetspot the edge since he floats there for a second.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah, I use Zelda/Wolf and most of the time I can recover fine.

That doesn't stop the occasional gimp though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rofl @ you people who have clearly never fought a good ike before.

If you really need me too I can bring you guys back up to 2011 speed as to how ike recovers since it appears that most of you are woefully uninformed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The way I see it, Ike can either go straight up (and down, lolz), or completely horizontal. Quick Draw sucks pretty badly and doesn't help Ike when he's below the stage

rofl @ you people who have clearly never fought a good ike before.

If you really need me too I can bring you guys back up to 2011 speed as to how ike recovers since it appears that most of you are woefully uninformed.

My opinion is the same as what I quoted of Xubble's.

Please enlighten us on how it's wrong.

Okay, so I'll post my thought process so you can pick it apart:

1. Ike's up b has very little horizontal movement. Like Link, I feel if he's semi-spiked and hasn't DI'd the attack well, he will die.

2. Ike's up b is slow on the startup. Sure it has super armor, but people aren't usually trying to attack Ike at this point. It gives the opponent a decent amount of time to go for an edgehog. I look at it like this:

Ike now has two options: 1. Take a chance and attempt to grab the ledge or 2. get on the stage and (probably) get punished.

Ike has a third option, namely he can try to attack the person with the up b, but SSDI can be used to push yourself off the ledge and edgehog. GIMR has a video on numerous people ****** Ike's recovery with this, alas I cannot find it.

Regarding Side B, yeah. Umm, it gets you back onto the stage, but have fun getting punished. No one in their right mind would use side b to attack someone in mid air, so you're confined to using it either: a) very high b) high c) mid heights. I imagine using it on ledge level will get you edgehogged. Using it below the stage is your other option.

That's my thoughts on why Ike's recovery isn't amazingly great or anything.

Edit: Before/if you complain about my usage of the word "gimpable", it's not just Ike I consider to be like this. Pretty much everyone in low tier excluding Lucas, and Olimar are characters I consider to be "gimpable". These characters generally have easily knocked out of or edgehoggable recoveries.

 

[Xubble]

Gimping is putting someone in a place where they can't recover from. That place off the edge for Ike is rather large. Ike, when knocked off the stage, has none of his aerials to rely on for defense if the enemy is right in his face (too much startup on fair, and lol @ nair offstage).

So Ike has little to help himself when being gimped by someone like, say, Wario, when he's being fair'd off the stage. Wario can easily make it back to the stage from virtually anywhere. Ike lacks the means to get out of his deadzone (as explained by Aero).

So no defense (once the gimping starts) + no means to recover when in his larger-than-average deadzone = easily gimped.

Not sure how that can be refuted, unless the Ikes have learned how to gain vertical height using Eruption. In which case, we're all ****ed.

 

[DewDaDash]

rofl @ you people who have clearly never fought a good ike before.

If you really need me too I can bring you guys back up to 2011 speed as to how ike recovers since it appears that most of you are woefully uninformed.

didnt u place 5th the tourney san got 1st? pretty sure you got work to do <_<"

 

[shaSLAM]

lol@dewdadash.

but in all honesty in todays metgame, gannon is the only character that has any real problems dealing with gimps.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Dew, and where do you place when Ryo gets first at your tourneys?

2. Basically the way it works is that, good Ikes are pretty much training to instinctively DI everything up, so unless you have something that sends Ike straight horizontal, like shuttle loop, ike will always DI up high enough to recover comfortably.
If you go out to try and hit him while hes offstage, fair has more range than every other aerial in the game, and kills if youre too high in %.
If he doesnt want to do that, he can fast fast fall airdodge which pretty much takes him from the height of battlefields top platform, to below the ledge with full invincibility.
Quickdraw is pretty much used as a 50-50 at the ledge. a lot of the time you cant jump out there and take the hit because it kills at lower %s depending on the charge, and you have to be relatively far offstage for him to hit you and still not make the ledge anyway.

Once hes below the ledge he pretty much has full control over where he wants to go. If you hold the ledge, he can just go onstage,and the massive sword hitbox for aether keeps him safe. he can time out youre ledge invincibility with it, and if you use a get up or roll on to the stage, its too laggy to punish most of the time even if he does land on stage. if you stay on stage, he can attack you with a move that does up to 20% and sets you up for his other moves. (talking about ddd specifically here) and if you get hit by aether at any point while youre offstage, youre basically dead.

a lot of characters have certain tools that can take stocks early from ike (sonic, wario, MK) But its far more difficult than people are lead to believe because of the small nuances that Ike players take advantage of. and DDD doesnt really have anything that can gimp his recovery reliably outside of like... gordo. And its much riskier for him since getting hit by aether at any point while youre offstage is the end of your stock.

 

[DewDaDash]

1. Dew, and where do you place when Ryo gets first at your tourneys?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13629645#post13629645

 

[da K.I.D.]

If had a chance to play him, id be beating ike too.

hes just better against MK than i am.

 

[Doc King]

Ike probably is pretty decent with Dedede because Dedede is a good stock tanker, and dthrow to Ike Fsmash would probably work.

In theory!

Also in regards Jigglypuff and the DI thing from dthrow, the frame advantage looks like this:

[collapse=Jigglypuff]1: +0
2: +0
3: +0
4: +0
5: +0
6: -1
7: -1
8: -1
9: -1[/collapse]

So Jigglypuff can just air dodge, land and jump away (shield is her best option though imo) after a dthrow. You miiiiight be able to techchase with ftilt, but that'll only work if they standing tech. If Jiggs was closer, you'd be able to get a strong ftilt out of dthrow, but unfortunately she lands too far away to be hit by the frame 11 hit (And if she buffers a shield, the frame 12 onward part of ftilt will be perfect shielded.)

Soz to throw a blanket over that almost metagame changing find.

I've actually known that Puff can just air dodge and get away from D3's tech chases on flat stages. It's more of a team thing mainly because of that. You Puff can't air dodge when down thrown on upward slopes and has an inescapable smashville platform combo and ice sliding d throws.

This can still makes some uses in our metagame.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Don't worry Doc, next time I play Jiggs in team, I'll be sure to utilize this great addition to our metagame.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I played a Jiggz in tourney once.

I 3 stocked him going Ganon.

Bad Jiggzes are fun.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@da K.I.D, DI doesn't count since it's universal.

@Doc King, my theory is that if Jigglypuff lands on a slope, she'll be able to do stuff even faster than on a flat stage. I will test this later today. Just for you. <3

 

[da K.I.D.]

actually from what i heard it might not be universally the same, I never got that confirmed, but I heard that characters like ike and link actually have stronger DI than others, but i need to get that confirmed.

also, the point is that against ddd ike doesnt get put in the positiion where he cant recover very often. and for the most part he cant really beat aether without a move that either has very little impact (f tilt) or very little chance of succeeding (f smash).

DDD beats ike solidly, but its not because ddd gimps ike amazingly or anything like that.

Knowing that a matchup is good/bad isnt nearly as important as knowing why.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No, DI is universal. I'm pretty open minded, but I've never seen any evidence of characters having "stronger" DI than others.

Link players and Ike players are just drummed into them to DI everything up, which might be why people think they can DI better.

Maybe.

My theory anyway.

RE: Dedede gimping Ike, I never actually said that, my original statement was pretty sweeping actually regarding teams (which most have MK in).

*runs off frame data'ing*

 

[DewDaDash]

to contradict what kid said, you can gimp ike, just ur not given many opportunities like aero would suggest which is what kid is prollly trying to say but disregards the few gimps we have at specific moments.

 

[Zekeishere]

In other news, I JUST BOUGHT MY PLANE TICKET TO APEX 2012.

FFFFFFUUUUUUUCK YEAH.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

And again, I'm nawt saying Dedede gimps Ike amazingly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

everyone was saying something different.

@zekey, bring the ruckus son.

 

[san.]

I clicked on this topic by accident, but since I'm here...


Ike's aether has the horizontal range of a BF platform. If he starts an aether at the beginning of the platform, the end of aether reaches the edge of the other side. Combined with ledgegrab range, it's pretty decent.

Ike is somewhat hard to gimp if you're not something like MK or Jigglypuff. You have to catch him out of something else. It takes a read to put yourself in a wall of pain situation for most characters, and it's quite dangerous. I can't really see too many characters gimping very often. I never really worry about getting gimped except against MK.


In terms of DDD gimping Ike, he really can't reliably. The only way is to try to intercept Ike before aether comes out after a dthrow, and to be quite honest, that sounds more like a guessing game, especially when mixing fastfalling, etc.

DDD does not like getting hit by aether. It puts him in a very bad position. Easier to stay onstage and manage stage control.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's very little horizontal range. I guess coupled with the nice vertical height it makes it a tolerable recovery, though there's still quite a window of opportunity(lawlspelling) to grab the ledge and force Ike onto the stage and punish from there.

That's my opinion though.

Also I realise this is a Dedede topic, but why do people think I was talking about Dedede gimping Ike? Originally I was talking about Ike/Dedede ON THE SAME TEAM, and Ike being pretty gimped there. iunno

So here's a picture of Spider Lairon.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ever since ryo's been rapin DDD and beat me, i been sayin i think its an even match. goin off stage is BAD cuz if we misread, which is very possible vs ryo/san, then we're off stage and the rewards ike will get from that are rediculous.



like san said, stay on stage

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If Ike does a roll dodge/spot dodge, will he be able to counter if you start inhale?

 

[Anthon1996]

Inhale doesn't suck you up if you hold your shield, as weird as it sounds, so I guess Ike could jump outta his shield and immediately use Counter on the Inhale.

 

[Zekeishere]

Ryo ***** ddd
> Loses to Hbox and DewDaDash.


Lol

 

[Exdeath]

Ryo ***** ddd
> Loses to Hbox and DewDaDash.


Lol

DewDaDash is one of his training partners and Hbox is Hbox. Two stocking CO18, Seibrik, etc. is considered to be "****** DDDs" by a lot of people.