Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

Those people are the worst kind of people.

I wouldnt say that.

Cause when Elven fired back real quick on aim, it kinda slapped me in the face with the point of dittos that I always forget. (The last point of dittos hold a little relevance if you play high tier characters).

__

Another related topic to dittos is the fact that even though you may have a character for the matchup, you still have to know how to play the matchup you dont want to play because of the nature of counterpicking.

.... that's just a random piece of info im throwing out there for anybody who "wants to learn a character to avoid a matchup".

 

[otg]

Ok, so I want to bring up something that Dogy mentioned a page ago or so, and I'm too lazy to quote it because I'm already typing this. As of right now, since the Doc community has no "best" Doc, we all have our own playstyles (not a bad thing) and maybe all excel at one thing or another (edgeguarding/comboing/pill setups/matchups..etcetc). As a result, there is no best strategy, there is no "perfect Doc" who knows what works and what doesn't.

We all need to come together people, we need to start working on setups and percents so we can start ****** constantly. This might be a bold task, but since there are a decent amount of us, and we are all pretty solid, why don't we start working on ways of improving Doc's metagame?

 

[Tyser]

Who was previously the best then? Smashmac or BobMoney?

 

[NES n00b]

LOL dogy. I am terrible with almost every character. You should know that. Doc is no exception...I don't even play him. =(

Dogy for best doc in WorldUSthe southGA. xD in all seriousness it would be interesting to know who is the best doc out there now.

 

[Dogysamich]

Who was previously the best then? Smashmac or BobMoney?

Bobmoney. Easy.

Hell, if he still cares about melee at all and plays, he'd probably still be the best now.

__

and na NES, you opened your mouth, now suffer the fate.

I here by christen you "Best Doc in the Nation". Now go forth and own in the name of Stubb McGee.

I'll be expecting all sorts of doc advice at TO4. And none of my bull**** "***** THROW PILLS AND RUN" crap, either.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

We should make a thread for Doc metagame stuff. I'm interested. I kinda want to drop Mario too and pick up the good doctor for a while.

EDIT: Does Doc's nair hit hard at the beginning and then drop in power and THEN get stronger, or is it weak at the beginning and gets stronger?

 

[DRD]

I personally believe Doc has much more potential than people attribute to him

And I don't think we have enough players representing him (well, that's obvious). Bob$ was an awesome Doc, but I see him make basic mistakes in a lot of the matches I watch of his. (This isn't saying much, as I would probably make the same mistakes as well.)

@Elvenarrow: It comes out weak, and builds in strength.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Ok, so I want to bring up something that Dogy mentioned a page ago or so, and I'm too lazy to quote it because I'm already typing this. As of right now, since the Doc community has no "best" Doc, we all have our own playstyles (not a bad thing) and maybe all excel at one thing or another (edgeguarding/comboing/pill setups/matchups..etcetc). As a result, there is no best strategy, there is no "perfect Doc" who knows what works and what doesn't.

We all need to come together people, we need to start working on setups and percents so we can start ****** constantly. This might be a bold task, but since there are a decent amount of us, and we are all pretty solid, why don't we start working on ways of improving Doc's metagame?

I thought you quit doc...

I always thought bobmoney was the best, and i agree with dogy if he still played he would be now.

 

[darkspatan117]

Sadly there is so few Doc Players ...

Edit :Elven Doc Nair is weak in the beginning and get stronger

 

[Dogysamich]

We should make a thread for Doc metagame stuff. I'm interested. I kinda want to drop Mario too and pick up the good doctor for a while.

EDIT: Does Doc's nair hit hard at the beginning and then drop in power and THEN get stronger, or is it weak at the beginning and gets stronger?

Weak to strong. Doc's nair is the only sexkick that starts out weak and gets stronger (hitbox gets smaller as it gets stronger, just FYI).

*Does n.air animation*
Timbaland!!

___

As for dropping mario for doc, that's technically what happened to me (in all of that nonsense of why im playing doc).

I've always had this idea of playing mario because of how some of his matchups work (i.e., vs capfal and sheik). I'd have to check into it (and play some more mario again), but I'd venture to say Mario actually has better matchups that doc does overall.

I personally believe Doc has much more potential than people attribute to him

And I don't think we have enough players representing him (well, that's obvious). Bob$ was an awesome Doc, but I see him make basic mistakes in a lot of the matches I watch of his. (This isn't saying much, as I would probably make the same mistakes as well.)

Sadly there is so few Doc Players ...

Edit :Elven Doc Nair is weak in the beginning and get stronger

Its not a problem of how many people doc. Yeah, there arent as many doc players as there are others, but it's because

1) There has only been a few real **** docs (most people will say 1, bobmoney), so that doesnt urk people to play him
2) He's not a mainstream character, so he's not going to get the fan favorite factor.

Look at fox. There are like, 20 **** foxes. And then its Fox. And then he's "the best on top of that". That's why alot of people play Fox.

Marth has the same thing, and then has the "American Fighting Game Factor" to go with him. (The fact that Americans would rather learn an easy good character than a harder not-as-good character because they get quicker results.)

__

So yeah, we dont specifically need more docs as much as we just need to get better.

Believe me, there are alot more doc players than you think. Alot more than post on these forums and whatnot. Everytime I go to a tourney, somebody is asking me for doc advice and then I wind up playing doc dittos (Elven: this is why I beat $mac in doc dittos at fast1. I literally cant think of the last tourney I went to and didnt play doc dittos, where as $mac plays doc dittos once a year)

They're (we're) out there.

 

[darkspatan117]

What stages should I pick with Doc? I think YS is good because of the close kill walls

 

[Dogysamich]

Depends.

Depends on how you play, what character you're fighting against, what's good, what's not really good, etc etc.

If you couldnt get away from a peach on PS, YS is not going to fix all of your problems.

I really like FD, but it really just depends.

 

[darkspatan117]

edit: 10 chars

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i wud say doc, just because of up throw to fair, and bair gimps.

 

[otg]

I dont know ... we would have to get the Mario boards involved in this one.. I think Mario does better vs. CapFal/Sheik and Doc prolly does better vs. Spacies and random low tiers.

 

[darkspatan117]

I think Doc does better vs Puff but Mario does better vs Marth which is more good. Overall I think that Mario Does better against top\high than Doc who does better vs Spacies and Puff

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh man, Dogy, looks like you have a lot of vouchers for you being the best Doc.

 

[otg]

Yeah I would say Dogy is probably the best Doc right now, or atleast the most experienced one.

 

[Falcinho]

i really don't get how to set up uair combos with Doc =S

it seems to me that the only reliable setups are up/downthrows, badly DI'ed fairs/nairs/late uairs? and eventually the dashattack

However, i don't approach with shffl'd aerials very often and i somehow have difficulties to connect up/downthrow --> uair in a way that i can follow up with something.

edit: totally forgot about the upsmash, i should upsmash more
I'll watch some Bobmoney now =P
---
Why is Mario better vs CF and Sheik?

 

[otg]

For uair combos, most of the reliable setups are out of grabs at certain percents, but it's also possible to link it together from an Usmash/utilt/dair and hell even Dash attack against floaties works too.

As for finishers from an Uair.. .that really depends on the character, there percent and how high they are when you land and in what position.
-If they will land right in front of you...
-are they above you? Try fsmash
-are they around your waist or a lil higher or lower? Try dsmash
-If they are in front of you but a fair distance a way
-more uairs?
-fair?

EDIT: as for Mario vs. CapFal/Sheik. Mario's fsmash actually has range so he can abuse Falcon a bit more, plus Mario's dair beats out a ton of Falcon's best approach moves when spaced properly. For Mario v. Sheik, I don't know the matchup too well, but I do know that Mario can CG Sheik just as effectively as Doc and with a better, longer ranged Fsmash he has more options of of the Dthrow. Also since Mario's recovery is "better" than Doc's, he can probably survive the dreaded Fair a lil better.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy you said that Mario have better matchups against Sheik and CF and also better overall it is true but I wonder who performs better for the space animals Doc or Mario ?

*thinks*
I think it's they're even either way, and it just comes down to what you want. The way the matchup goes, the only thing mario really does better is have range, and the only thing doc does better have throw to fair. Both of which arent really too important because alot of your work is probably coming from edgeguarding anyway. (Grabbing good spaces is hard as ****). *shrug* i dunno. I really dunno. XD

I dont know ... we would have to get the Mario boards involved in this one.. I think Mario does better vs. CapFal/Sheik and Doc prolly does better vs. Spacies and random low tiers.

I mean, you could ask (i dunno if respectable people still post down there), but mario actually has some other better matchups that doc doesnt. Such as vs Samus. Doc gets beat by pretty much everything samus does except for her projectile game (which actually is still a threat, if you let it), but Mario can atleast reach past tilts and foot (samus n.air). I'd go as far as to say mario vs samus is probably even (i dunno if fireballs beat missles like pills do). Doc vs Samus on the other hand, slightly in samus's favor.

I think Doc does better vs Puff but Mario does better vs Marth which is more good. Overall I think that Mario Does better against top\high than Doc who does better vs Spacies and Puff

Oh there's no thought about it, Doc does better against puff, simply because doc's f.air is a threat to jiggs' lively hood and mario's f.air it just intimidation. Mario vs Marth, on paper that sounds like it's better, i dont know what truth there is to it.

I dunno how well mario does against peach, either.

Oh man, Dogy, looks like you have a lot of vouchers for you being the best Doc.

Yeah I would say Dogy is probably the best Doc right now, or atleast the most experienced one.

*shakes head*
I appreciate it and all, but I wouldnt say that. And that's not just my common modesty, its that there's really no weight to it.

I mean, sure I get on here and talk alot, but I just know alot. Sittin on the forums playin theory fighter and actually doing it are two different things.

_______

edit

Setting up u.air juggles. Yeah, pretty much everything you said, or just getting them to jump for you. It's kinda hard, especially since doc's u.air has a little too much knockback and not enough hitstun. (Yes, mario's u.air is actually made better for comboing.)

As for Mario vs Capfal and Sheik. It's all about the f.smash why it's better for mario.

vs Capfal, Doc's D.air does the same thing as marios, but capfal really only has to nair to beat doc. Space nairs and never commit to shielding. Doc cant catch him with ANYTHING. Against mario, however, if mario can call a spaced nair, he can f.smash in retalitaion.

Against sheik, it's basically the same thing. If sheik spaces b.air, doc cant really do too much about it, same thing with f.air, sheik can just move. Mario can reach her with f.smashes. As for the f.smashing from d.throw - because of sheik's hitbox, doc can actually f.smash as easy as mario. INFACT (kinda funny when you think about it), mario has a slightly harder time doing it because he has to actually read 3 options (left right or in place) where as doc only has to read left or right. (Mario has to read in place because if he just smashes and sheiks' on top of him, it's sourspotted)

 

[Falcinho]

wow, love the doc boards <3

Thanks for the quick and helpful responses =D

After watching some Bobmoneyi think i gotta time my uairs a bit later and it will get alot easier ^^

 

[Dogysamich]

I pretty much keep my f5 on standby.

>.>

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dude, same. I need to get a hobby.

 

[Dogysamich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qMYY5jxlO0

Get wrecked.

 

[darkspatan117]

lol that was wierd

Edit: I heard Doc could waveland FH Pill it is more useful than shooting 2 in a FH ?

 

[St. Viers]

doc's up tilt beats out shiek's b-air. Either that or I'm lucky...up angled f-tilt may work as well.

I agree about mario-falcon matchup, but I think that sheik is better for doc.

 

[Dogysamich]

Edit: I heard Doc could waveland FH Pill it is more useful than shooting 2 in a FH ?

*laughs sarcastically*.

I'll give you 3 guesses to what the answer is.

It's not yes, and it's not no. But it does start with a "D"

 

[darkspatan117]

it depend on situation right ? That what I wanted know

For Doc vs Peach any advice ?

 

[Dogysamich]

Cliffnotes style, lets go.

-you can cape her out of float.
-nair/bair are ok if you think she's gunna be in the air, but if you can pinpoint that ho, f.air.
-if you're approaching and she's on the ground; f.air. Every time. Or else she'll just CC downsmash.
-This goes without say, dont CC her downsmash. I mean, you actually can CC other stuff, but if you're CCing something like FC d.air, and you see her coming down, ****ing start jamming up on the c stick and EJECT OUTTA THAT *****
-if you want her to stop running at you, get a little space and start throwing pills. She's slow, she cant warp through them or anything.
-speaking of pills, be careful if you're going ot approach, if you give her space, she might pull toad. Toad has more range than you, seriously. (Toad has more range than alot of characters).
-If she floatcancels something, dont you dare try to punish it. Just be ready to eject.
-d.throw -> f.air 'round 90%-105ish. Fullhop.
-Keep her above you if possible. U.air.
-oh oh, biggie right here. just because she throws a turnip doesnt mean you have to cape. You better check and make sure she's coming behind that turnip, or else she might be baitin your ***.

 

[DRD]

I seem to do badly against Marths; I know Doc isn't the best character against Marth, but I thought Doc's pills were pretty effective at neutralizing his attacks. If I had videos I'd post them, but I don't own any of the equipment.

Any basic advice against Marths?

 

[Dogysamich]

woooaaaaahhhh doc marth.

im feelin a little too lazy to type my marth advice, but i'll give you cliffnotes.

1) CC only works if they space poorly. M2k let one of the biggest cats out of the bag about doc vs marth. As long as marth properly spaces aerials (more specifically n.air) doc cant do ANYTHING vs the aerials. You cant CC d.smash cause you're out of range.

2) Speaking of aerials; as long as he's l cancelling them, Dont cant really do alot to punish them in general.

3) Contrary to what people think, you initially can make marth approach you because of pills. However, once you get just outside of his tip range, you have to approach him. (for those who like to go with the initiave-response theory of fighters.)

4) Unless Marth will let you, you have to pill to approach him, and then figure out what he's going to do after he deals with pill. As long as he has room, his best response to pills will be to move (because he stays in neutral, never entering ANY recover frames).

5) In spite of what some people try to say, you can combo marth. You can u.air juggle him. But whatever God you pray to wont save you if you try to cheat marth and start early.

6) You can d.throw -> f.air him. 90-110% or so is SH, 110%-135% or so is FH. Something like that, i dont remember numbers, i just know "ARound 100%, d.throw -> f.air -> profit."

7) And the absolute most imporant cliffnote i can give you about marth iiiiiiiiiis.

If marth ever. EVER. ever. F.smashes and f.tilts and you block, you are allowed to wavedash in. If it's tipped, i think you're guarenteed a wavetilt (im not exactly sure, i never think about this situation and i'll have to try it). However, if it's untipped, you are guarenteed a wave(down)smash.

EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
__

That's it for my marth cliffnotes. I'll type more about it later if needed... and when I stop being lazy.

There's more to it, but that's like, last week or so, i dunno.

*edit*
i scratched out the lie about tipped f.smash. I dont think you can punish it, unless maybe if you powershield it? Maybe? I dunno?

 

[DRD]

Thanks dogy, I really appreciate it

As to the powershielding speculation

I wouldn't think so, wouldn't the fsmash push you away?

 

[Dogysamich]

ill mess around with it 2morrow.

I dont know. I'd imagine you probably couldnt do ****. Cause it's Stubbs McGee vs King Arthur, and well.

Well.

 

[otg]

Sorry fyasko, I'm prolly not goign to be able to make it out for singles at the CT tourney tomorrow. My ride bailed to build a spudgun instead lol.

EDIT:

Also, after the last few days of playing Doc, I have officially mastered the $shot.

 

[Dogysamich]

It's a quiet night in the doc q&a thread. >.>

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What's the money shot?

...in terms of Doc.

 

[Dogysamich]

b.air -> b.air edgeguards.

Named after bob money cause well, he had his combo video years ago of him annhilating people with it. XD

 

[St. Viers]

isn't it more specifically b-air, ledgecancel b-air (and then sometimes rising b-air)?

 

[Dogysamich]

dont know, dont care.

B.airs.

Plenty of them.