Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[otg]

Yeah.. Doc's Dair might be like my new favorite move with him. You can't spam it obviously, but holy **** it's good. If you space it right it connects into Dsmash all the time.... hmmmm deliciuos 30%+ combo hmmm DELICIOUS

Hm Hn drop da Beat

 

[Dogysamich]

Lets see.

I just finished counting change my my piggy bank, and I would like to go on record and say

**** pennies.

seriously. $4.42 in pennies. ALMOST HALF OF MY BANK WAS PENNIES. Copper pieces of ****. Oh my god that was so **** painful.

___

I also did alot of practice with

. Yay May!

 

[St. Viers]

um, okay

10wtfs

 

[Dogysamich]

I DUNNO, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY.

Hey guys, apparently we can get a little more range on our throw f.airs if we double jump when people are just out of reach.

GUESS WHAT, WE STILL CANT HIT SAMUS CAUSE SHE'S THE 3RD HEAVIEST MAA****ER IN THE GAME. KEKE.

___

And I

****
IN
MEH PANTZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


​

 

[DRD]

Do it. I'd love em.

Technical as in... the physical knowledge of stuff? Like how to chaingrab, or ... what?

Cause if you really just mean the knowledge of the game, it's not as bad as you think. The hard part about doc is there's really nothing to go off of. Doc isnt what I call an "American character" in that you cant cookie cut from somebody else.

It's not like when you play fox and somebody's like "Oh, you're a chillendude fox" or "oh, you must watch alot of mathos."

Inspite of all the random nonsense you see spouting up in here sometimes, this is probably the most useful these boards have ever been. Ever.

I meant more along the lines of hitboxes and frame data

But more of both wouldn't hurt

 

[otg]

I DUNNO, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY.

Hey guys, apparently we can get a little more range on our throw f.airs if we double jump when people are just out of reach.

GUESS WHAT, WE STILL CANT HIT SAMUS CAUSE SHE'S THE 3RD HEAVIEST MAA****ER IN THE GAME. KEKE.


​

Wow, seems like a certain someone had to enlighten a certain other someone on this ... already known detail the other day. loolll jk love you dogy.

 

[ranmaru]

Well wow, thats nice. :3 Too bad I couldn't see Doc's Cape hit box, oh well. xD *I heard it was a little weird*

 

[Dogysamich]

Wow, seems like a certain someone had to enlighten a certain other someone on this ... already known detail the other day. loolll jk love you dogy.

XD

Seriously. DJing just doesnt sound like it should work, and it sure as hell ramps up the risk reward.

 

[St. Viers]

does anyone know where we could find how much hitstun attacks have*?
(I'm loving the hitbox system btw)

both on and by doc*

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hitstun? That changes based on launch speed. Hitlag and shieldstun I have though.

 

[St. Viers]

that would be cool --was looking but couldn't find it (sdm's page let me down >_<)

We should have one of those annoyingly data-filled sections to any guide we have ^__^

 

[Tyser]

Smashmac's Match-Up Thread is still relatively accurate right? Ive been reading that a lot lately and I noticed you guys were talking about remaking a match up thread or something a few pages ago I think.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Click me!

EDIT: Oh yeah, the formulas (according to Doraki) are...

hitlag = (2 + damage/3) frames ; half of it when crouch cancelled.
shieldstun = (4.45 + damage)/2.235 frames

I post this everywhere but I can never find it again when I look for it, so I have to go through a huge maze of threads.

 

[otg]

Well... the idea behind making a new guide is that Smacs guide while detailed isn't really that practical. The information is accurate but for example (vs. Fox):

When you're fighting against Fox players, rely on their technicality. They love to approach with sex-kicks since it stays out so long and the hitbox is insane. You should be able to hold your own against a Fox player, but if you and the Fox player are at the same skill level, you're going to have twice as hard of a time trying to beat him. Remember, the key things to remember in this matchup is that a.) He can be chaingrabbed b.) You can cape and bair his recovery easily and c.) Once you grab him at around 100%, you can uthrow to full jump fair and destroy him. Foxs love to move fast, shine spike, and laser camp you.

Is this anything you didn't know already? Dogy wants to create an ultimate Doc guide with general ideas strategies, what works/what doesn't, matchups, some little know tricks (like the 'uber' Nintendo Power), etc. If it comes out as good as it sounds than it'll make most of the guides in this forum obsolete.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Doc boards should set an example and match a matchup chart, then the rest of the boards can pitch in and then we can remake Phanna's old chart =D

 

[#HBC | Mac]

well when making a match up chart, for each match up you need contribution from both characters forums. We can't just decide something like the fox v doc matchup is 60-40 in fox;s favor, we would also need input from the fox forums.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Fox forums are too busy coming up with useless new techs to care =P

Well, we'll just concentrate on Doc first.

 

[Dogysamich]

well when making a match up chart, for each match up you need contribution from both characters forums. We can't just decide something like the fox v doc matchup is 60-40 in fox;s favor, we would also need input from the fox forums.

in all honesty, until we step up, i number matchup is kind of irrelevant because like i keep saying, there hasnt really been awesome docs out there to set the standards.

All you really need to know is that Marth Sheik and Capfal, on paper, are your hardest 3 matches; and **** the rest of the numbers.

But yeah, i keep saying ima get off my *** and start putting this guide together, but everybody's all like "I want numbers, I want numbers" and i never really had intention of putting numbers in there in the first place.

__

I dunno, I gotta see how my weekend is looking, I might be going to play a ****ton of melee/tvc/ggac other **** this weekend, or i might just be going to a monthly/friendly on sunday. I dunno.

I've got the outline done right now (or roughly the outline). I just have to get off my ***.

 

[St. Viers]

Don't worry about what people *think* they want--just make something useful, and good XD

 

[S.R. XXVII]

I dunno, I gotta see how my weekend is looking, I might be going to play a ****ton of melee/tvc/ggac other **** this weekend, or i might just be going to a monthly/friendly on sunday. I dunno.

Please get vids of those.

 

[Dogysamich]

Please get vids of those.

uh... why? I mean, im not saying i wont try, i guess. But why?

I mean, who knows if we're (they're, i havent played it) good at tvc, and as for guilty gear, the only one worth a **** would be marty, if he shows up.

Unless you're just hellbent on seeing my cracktastic may!

I'd dolphin loop my mom if she played Jam! **** that ho!

 

[S.R. XXVII]

uh... why? I mean, im not saying i wont try, i guess. But why?

I mean, who knows if we're (they're, i havent played it) good at tvc, and as for guilty gear, the only one worth a **** would be marty, if he shows up.

Unless you're just hellbent on seeing my cracktastic may!

I'd dolphin loop my mom if she played Jam! **** that ho!

yes, Jam should die. May is a charge char. right? I use Venom.

 

[Dogysamich]

yeah she is, and venom is ****ing ballin.

Like, literally.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

lol. In more ways than 2 >_<

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Numbers... I dunno, we can throw in numbers later, they're so subjective anyway.

 

[otg]

If we aren't going with numbers how about this:

Disadvantage:
- Falcon/Marth/Sheik

Slight disadvantage/evenish:
- Fox/Falco/Icies/Mario/Peach/Samus

Doc ditto

Evenish/Slight advantage:
- DK/G&W/Ganon/Jiggly/Link/Luigi/Ness/Pikachu/Yoshi/Y.Link/Zelda

Advantage:
- Bowser/Kirby/m2/Roy/Pichu

This is totally IMO. There are a few characters who could be moved here, like Luigi/random lowtiers/falco?

Thoughts?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, that seems good. I dunno, but like... I feel like numbers give you more room to say how good/bad the matchup is. Maybe add in another category on either side?

 

[otg]

Well like, I labeled it that way because Doc has a lot of evenish matchups that could go either way and could also be stage dependent. So I don't know, we're going to need other Doc inputs on matchups and go from there.

For the Disadvantaged matchups, it's most likely Marth > Sheik/Falcon, but it could actually go anyway. Doc's edgeguards/grab game/cg's on Sheik/Falcon give Doc a chance. Against Marth you have to figure out ways to get inside and apply pressure. From a grab you have less options although you can punish pretty hard at right percents. It's also a lil harder to edgeguard Marth IMO, but there are tricks that can **** him up pretty good.

I duno, we're going to need input on these.

 

[soap]

that list looks spot on.

i think marth is by far the worst, u dont have the solid **** combos and edgeguards that u have on sheik and falcon. plus u gotta work through those hitboxes, u can atleast trade alot with the other two

it seems like the doc boards is always arguing about who is the hardest among those three

 

[Dogysamich]

having advantage/disadvantage is the same thing as having numbers.

cause like, who really knows about any of the "slight disadvantage matchups", cause all of that is pretty much based off of "What would happen if bob money (or i guess caveman?) would have fought this".

The even/disadvantage? Of all of those low tiers, how many GOOD ones has anybody seen?

There's really NOTHING to go off of for those, it would all be flat out personal opinion.

that list looks spot on.

i think marth is by far the worst, u dont have the solid **** combos and edgeguards that u have on sheik and falcon. plus u gotta work through those hitboxes, u can atleast trade alot with the other two

it seems like the doc boards is always arguing about who is the hardest among those three

Yeah you do. Upair juggles.

And edgeguarding marth is actually as dangerous as edgeguarding shiek.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

And edgeguarding marth is actually as dangerous as edgeguarding shiek.

how do you figure?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Ledgehop nair to combo. Ledgehop fair to combo. Ledgedash grab to combo. Etc.

 

[otg]

Yeah but all of those options are from when she actually grabs the ledge. When you edgeguard her, you don't let her have it so you punish her landing lag. With Marth what can you reasonably do besides reset invincibility frames and try to punish him with a bair or force him to upB on the stage and punish him there? His recovery has more options than Shieks.

Also, in regards to the labels, you're right dogy there haven't been many good low tiers which is mostly why I put them in the Slight advantage category. Maybe we should only focus on the top/high/mid tiers and any rough low tier matchups?

 

[Dogysamich]

how do you figure?

if sheik calls your jump out, she can get a f.air. I dont know how practical it is, but i think they could also b.air you away clean.

all marth really has to do is convince you that he'll swing if you come out at him and he can pretty much come back safely. Too many marths want to try to swing before you get out there which sets them up.

capfal can kinda defend himself, but his stuff turns more into tryin to take you down with him rather than him defending himself.

__

Oh yeah, and then once they get on the ledge, dear god. You could try tricking marth and sheik into coming up with something as you CC, and it actually works sometimes. But capfal. Try that **** and you'll get a mouthful of AMERICA.


****
On a completely different note

HEY, DO YOU WANNA FEEL SO BLACK?!?!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh wait... are we saying Sheik isn't dangerous to edgeguard?

 

[Dogysamich]

i say she is.

that's my opinion, though.

I mean ****, you still gotta have the balls to get your *** out there

____

"Courage is the magic that turns dreams into reality"

....OH **** NO I DIDNT

*goes to break his wii*

 

[S.R. XXVII]

****
On a completely different note

HEY, DO YOU WANNA FEEL SO BLACK?!?!

Omg Dogy, if I didn't have a sense of humor, I wouldn't be laughing so hard. *****guwa! OMG! LOLOL!

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

ummm

i think sheik is doc worst matchup

cuz she can camp doc with needles lol and space aereals

i mean falcon/marth can be jus as wreckless

but if ur spacing and edgeguards are on point u can keep up with them

sheik is the hardest to edgeguard(espcially on platform stages) (to me at least)

and she has projectiles hahaha

and u could light sheild marth recovery otg (btw ur too legit =D)

or u could bait marth with a light sheild, they upB purposely miss the sweetspot and u b-air outta sheild or jus cape lol

but yea idk lol................u prolly know that lol

dogysamich is too good to! =D

 

[Niko45]

I don't play Doc but my 2 cents would just be that there is no way in the world marth is Doc's WORST matchup in the game. Doc doesn't have much in grab combos, but at least he's got down throw to up smash/up air at low percents. Meanwhile marth has all of 0 combos out of throws ("Up throw to nothing," as the P vs Shroomed commentary goes). Even that wouldn't be so bad if getting grabs wasn't so hard. Doc has jab grab which is great while marth's inferior jab and sidestep make it very hard to get grabs and control the match.

Sheik has a better jab game than Doc and then completely wrecks him out of grabs. Falcon doesn't have the better jab (but still better than Marth's) but also wrecks doc out of grabs when he gets them.

Marth gimps doc but not as well as sheik who can teleport ledge stall incoming pills and bair to death. Marth is similar but not quite as good. Marth's methods for getting Doc off stage all send him high enough to make his pill recovery really good, as well. Where as sheik's slap is going to make Doc's angle coming back worse and therefore gimping him way way easier. Same with the knee from cfalcon.

Doc has decent gimps on marth too. Back air is legit and you can cape if you see them going low.

Marth generally has no solid routine way to kill Doc since fsmash on stage is way too risky (Doc's great shield, wavedash out jab grab). Where as sheik and cfalcon have great on stage kill moves. Maybe if ur on YS yea Marth can get his kills cheaper but wow play on dreamland and good luck.

Sheik is the really obvious choice to me. She has needles to combat pills and also disrupt recovery. Great jab and grab game on doc. Better edgeguarding options and better kill moves on doc. Yea she gets combo'd worse but you need initial hits to start combos. Your combos aren't as good as hers anyway and all she needs is a jab or an ftilt and ur eating damage ranging between 40% and death as punishment.

Doc has a slight disadvantage to Marth in my opinion.. There's all this and that about "getting in on marth" but marth doesn't have that easy of a time "getting in" on Doc. Doc has a great shield, sidestep, and jab which are the fundamentals to strong defense. Even if Marth does "get in" how much is he really going to do? He doesn't have the combos or brutal tech chases falcon and sheik have. I really just don't see all this evidence that marth wrecks Doc. Any marth/doc video I've ever seen have been close matches. I've seen Ken and Azen struggle horribly with Docs as recently as mid 07 (there's not much doc/marth material out there honestly).

 

[Falcinho]

Marth doesn't want to "get in" Doc.
He just spaces moves until Doc'shield gets low enough to shieldstab/Doc gets somehow hit by his sword/ Doc commits suicide out of frustration.

and you can buffer rolls/spotdodges after the Jab to escape the grab.

and even uthrow to nothing can become dangerous because Doc is in the air and you don't want to be in the air too much vs Marth.