Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Niko45]

Right you don't want to be in the air because you might be hit with the aerial to nothing combo as well. Even if you waste your 2nd jump in the air marth can't kill you from the air until extremely high percentages. Platforms help him maybe string a few aerials together until Doc is at about 50-60 at which point that no longer happens. Then ur still not close to killing without a tipper fsmash which you can't combo into and is generally too risky to try to surprise Doc with. It's not even worth it most of the time to try for aerials when doc still has his jump bc you have a good shot at eating a down air that he can either follow up on or force you to jump out and be in the air with no jump.

That shield stabbing stuff is just bogus that's not how that fight plays out at all. Anyway the point is no way is that Doc's worst fight.

 

[Dogysamich]

Real Talk

More Real Talk

INCOMING GREEN WALL OF TEXT!!
Hmm, where to start, where to start.

Sheik cant really camp you with needles unless you let her. Reason being is because for her to get the most distance from her needles, she has to be on the ground. For her to get the most use out of the needles, she has to be in the air. So you really have to just get past the diagonal line to get past needles. Needles just really piss you off off.

Spacing? It goes like this.
If sheik spaces everything perfectly, the only thing she can do that doc actually cant punish at all is a b.air. (Maybe a f.air at higher percents since it would push him out. Maybe a d.air, i cant remember how long you can CC that)

If capfal spaces everything correctly, the doc cant punish alot of things. Smashes, F.air, D.air, B.air. Problem is, he winds up in doc's range to land all of those moves. This problem is solved by the way capfal wins the match, moving out.

If marth spaces everything perfectly, doc cant do ****. Of course, for this to work, marth actualy has to DO THE CORRECT MOVES IN THE FIRST PLACE (which alot of marths dont do in the matchup, ironically), but marth does the right stuff at the right space, doc has to go to hell and back to get in.

*goes into Niko's post*
Just keeping with marth.
See, the part you talk about "Marth getting in" and all this talk about "Marth cant do anything from grabs" is why marth players apparently have a hard time with doc.

Marth is never supposed to be looking to "Get in" on doc. He doesnt have to. Marth is supposed to just get right in tip range and poke. Its another one of those things I just dont understand about people in this game; why is it when they play the character with "the most range" will people constantly look for a shorter inferior move?

You look at the range character in just about every game out there. Look at Hibiki in CvS2. Look at Kilik in Soul Cal. Look at Claw(Vega) in street fighter. Faust in GGAC. It's all fundamentally the same. You dont go LOOKING for grabs, since that is completely in your range. You either counter with grabs, or you take it if they're in your range blocking (Which happens more often than not since they HAVE to block in there if you're making them respect your range).

Marth cant do much to doc out of grabs, yeah, I guess I can agree with that. I mean, you make it sound like Marth cant do ANYTHING to doc EVER from a grab, which is false. (Yeah, you cant do anything on doc from an upthrow. We cant do anything to peach from an upthrow. You know what we do? WE DONT UPTHROW PEACH.)

Edgeguarding. I cant downplay sheik's edgeguard. It IS so **** good. But the thing that's getting lost in all this is that Doc's recovery is so bad that marth's already-stellar edgeguard is more than enough for doc. The question in this category isnt "Who's is better than who's" it's "Is your's good enough to get the job done?"

And just to throw it in right here, Doc cant cape marth if marth sweetspots. I have an idea i've wanted to try that might throw my last sentence down the drain, but as for right now, im standing by you cant cape a marth going low if he sweetspots.

Doc has LOW PERCENT stuff on marth? I mean, unless you're talking about the standard followups, which arent that important, then no, Doc doenst have low % stuff on marth. You know what u.air juggling at the wrong % gets us against marth? Gets us a nice *** ken combo (or atleast a f.air or 2). This specific topic is why Eggz says mario(s) have a hard time against Marth (although he says marios can NEVER combo marth, which is not true).

Sheik's and Falcon's jab wrecks doc out of grabs? I honestly dont understand what you mean by this. (Like, im not trying to be like NO THIS CANNOT HAPPEN, i literally dont understand what you mean by this) >.>


______


... im kinda lost in these posts since i've been jumping around, but Im going to hit a topic that I planned on putting in this "infamous guide im supposed to be working on"

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD YOU PEOPLE. STOP PUNISHING WITH JAB. YOU DONT PUNISH WITH JAB. YOU ****ING PUNISH WITH (ATTACK).

As in, when marth f.smashes, you dont wavedash in and then JAB->GRAB. You just ****ING, GRAB. If you jab him, you reset him and actually give him an opprotunity to move. More specific (for people familiar with universal stuff), what you do is you're taking your jab as your free damage and putting marth into a mixup, meaning he has the opprotunity to escape with no further punishment.

..... yeah im officially lost, I think I hit everything, I could be wrong.

 

[otg]

Actually, I think most of Niko's analysis of the matchup is correct. It's nice getting perspective from other character boards . The one thing that Marth/Falcon have that Sheik doesn't though: Devastating Low percent KO moves. That **** is awful when you don't see it coming because you can EASILY die before 70-80% from a good Fsmash tipper/knee.

The one thing is Marth is Doc's worst fight on paper, doesn't mean it comes out like that IRL. I think your analysis of the Doc/Sheik matchup is correct too, she definitely has a safer time dealing with recovery as well.

But yeah this is a good start, slowly but surely we should start trying to get a good grasp on handling matchups from both sides.

*Edit: Just read Dogy's green wall of text. **** son, that's a good point. To be honest, I've ALWAYS hated fighting the Mario's using any character. I suck in Doc dittos, when I use Marth/Falcon/Fox/Falco I receive the same treatment (lol Doctor) that I give to them as Doc. I just feel like if Marth is spacing PERFECTLY, there still has to be some option Doc can use to get inside, be it camping pills from different positions or just looking for ways to mix up and get closer to him.

 

[Dogysamich]

look at it like this.

Marth has d.tilt, n.air, and u.tilt. Those cover low, mid, and high, respectively.

They all beat doc clean.

So, you could look at it like "Marth has a 33.3% chance of stopping doc from getting in". When realistically marth can do aerial -> one of those 3, and it's not like you're coming in after a f.air anyway.

..*stops and reads that last paragraph* I dunno, maybe that makes sense to somebody else, cause that looks dumb to me now. XD.

The point is, marth can stop doc from coming in period, marth just has to pick the correct way.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkRZWbm5t2M&feature=channel_page
I dunno if its an accurate depiction of the match up, but i thought it was a good match.

 

[Dogysamich]

it's a good example of what doc can do if

1) marth constantly stands in docs range (which was the first 2 stocks)

and

2) marth constantly guesses wrong on doc's approach.

 

[eighteenspikes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkRZWbm5t2M&feature=channel_page
I dunno if its an accurate depiction of the match up, but i thought it was a good match.

I don't know if I would agree with that... the only way I can ever move like that around a Marth is if I'm significantly better than him, like playing my friend's cousin or something. Almost EVERY SINGLE THING that doc does either hits, or clinks/is shielded but leads directly to a hit. Barely anything misses, and almost nothing is punished. I don't want to say Ljon's bad just from 1 match, but he didn't look very good in that video. There were a couple times when the marth literally just stood still

This weekend I'm gonna have a bunch of people over, I'll get some videos of me vs Cosmo's marth he's really good!!

 

[otg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkRZWbm5t2M&feature=channel_page
I dunno if its an accurate depiction of the match up, but i thought it was a good match.

lol all I had to do was watch that first stock, and I was done. Marth shouldn't be falling into situations like that, nor should he be dying from Dsmash at 70%.

 

[Eggz]

Marths with good DI can't have finishers done to them so comboing is worthless. =/

Then again I just played with Mario recently and ***** face so idk anymore LOL

 

[Niko45]

I'm not sure I ever phrased it like that but I meant to say sheik can jab, grab and destroy doc from there. Cfalcon's jab I'm pretty sure Doc can escape before a grab or anything but it just helps him combat doc close range. I had only mentioned that cfalcon beasts doc from grabs not jabs.

What can Marth do from grab? Fthrow to fthrow works at 0 but if doc DIs away you can't fsmash or fair out of it there's really nothing. You can't even really tech chase doc bc he goes too far away and recovers too fast. Even then ur looking at what? Regrab?

What I meant about low percent stuff was doc's dthrow to up smash/uptilt or whatever. I mean its like 20% with a decent chance to add on to that.

The window for the ken combo on doc is SMALL as hell just for the record. He jumps out of the non-tip fair from what I've seen and tip fair have enough stun but send him too high after like 40.

Can't you punish dtilt with wdash out of shield I don't know for sure but I thought you could. Anyway as far as low-mid-high is concerned how about we cover them all with sheik's ftilt which coincidentally combos brutally and often to death.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

it's a good example of what doc can do if

1) marth constantly stands in docs range (which was the first 2 stocks)

and

2) marth constantly guesses wrong on doc's approach.

I don't know if I would agree with that... the only way I can ever move like that around a Marth is if I'm significantly better than him, like playing my friend's cousin or something. Almost EVERY SINGLE THING that doc does either hits, or clinks/is shielded but leads directly to a hit. Barely anything misses, and almost nothing is punished. I don't want to say Ljon's bad just from 1 match, but he didn't look very good in that video. There were a couple times when the marth literally just stood still

This weekend I'm gonna have a bunch of people over, I'll get some videos of me vs Cosmo's marth he's really good!!

lol all I had to do was watch that first stock, and I was done. Marth shouldn't be falling into situations like that, nor should he be dying from Dsmash at 70%.

lol i guess i saw **** and got excited...

 

[Dogysamich]

Marths with good DI can't have finishers done to them so comboing is worthless. =/

Then again I just played with Mario recently and ***** face so idk anymore LOL

it's not worthless, it's rackin up damage and you know it. It's like doin all that uber fox **** and not being able to land the up.air. OH ****IN WELL YOU STILL DID DAMAGE.

But dude, hop back on that mario. Im not saying drop fox, im just sayin hop back on that mario. YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT.

I'm not sure I ever phrased it like that but I meant to say sheik can jab, grab and destroy doc from there. Cfalcon's jab I'm pretty sure Doc can escape before a grab or anything but it just helps him combat doc close range. I had only mentioned that cfalcon beasts doc from grabs not jabs.

What can Marth do from grab? Fthrow to fthrow works at 0 but if doc DIs away you can't fsmash or fair out of it there's really nothing. You can't even really tech chase doc bc he goes too far away and recovers too fast. Even then ur looking at what? Regrab?

What I meant about low percent stuff was doc's dthrow to up smash/uptilt or whatever. I mean its like 20% with a decent chance to add on to that.

The window for the ken combo on doc is SMALL as hell just for the record. He jumps out of the non-tip fair from what I've seen and tip fair have enough stun but send him too high after like 40.

Can't you punish dtilt with wdash out of shield I don't know for sure but I thought you could. Anyway as far as low-mid-high is concerned how about we cover them all with sheik's ftilt which coincidentally combos brutally and often to death.

Sheik ***** just about everybody who does CC her jab with a grab, it's called a good jab.

Capfal cant do the same thing, but apparently he can gentlemen doc out of range. *shrug* that's only useful because capfal can move out afterwards and doc cant catch him; which again plays off of capfal's strengh.

Marth cant jab grab, but he can jab doc out of his space.

__

What can marth do from a grab? Oh lets see. You can mix up throws and catch bad DI which leads to f.smash. You can throw doc up and follow up, because as long as you space said aerial correctly, doc cant do anything. (If you're really afraid of doc coming down with a d.air, we need to have a heart-to-heart talk.) If you're close enough to the edge, you can obviously throw him off, but I mean ****, if doc's at a high enough percent, why not throw him the other way so he ****s up his DI and then take your f.smash? BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE DOING THE OBVIOUS. (And that is assuming that for some odd reason you have a hard time edgeguarding doc)

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Doc jumps out of non-tipped f.air at like 20%. DOC JUMPS OUT OF NON-TIPPED F.AIR. DOC JUMPS OUT. DOC. JUMPS IN THE AIR.
... A DOC THAT DOUBLE JUMPED, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?!?!?! If you wait and call it, you just go right back to f.airing, and now he has no jump, so once he gets off he's not coming back. >.>

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For doc to punish a d.tilt, marth has to

a) not move after the d.tilt
b) run into something after the d.tilt
c) space retardedly bad

D.tilt is safe. That's why it's a good poke.

__

As for sheiks f.tilt, yeah that's why you dont jump in at sheik very often. You stay on the ground and you can CC alot of stuff she can do and punish it, or atleast not get turned into a combo video.

*******

And OTG, i liek how you put we're "discussing matchups" like something revolutionary is happening here.

Wait till like, 10pm when I find some more ******* vids on here.

Such as The Sequel to Jones' Big *** Truck Rental and Storage!

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

man all u guys talk about is how marf **** you guys lol get better range plz
*I'm a good friend of dogy so dont **** me plz*

 

[Dogysamich]

HEY HOW BOUT YOU GO DOWN THERE WITH THE REST OF THEM BLONDE HAIRED SPACE SUIT HOES AND FIGURE OUT HOW OVERCLOCK YOUR SYSTEM YOU LIMITED ****S.

o_o

Yeah what now alpha?

 

[Niko45]

Basically from grab what ur saying is marth can do nothing or he can hope the doc is not good. If doc just DIs away assuming fthrow he will have time to react if he sees he's being dthrown. Dthrow is laggier for marth so doc has to basically try to get hit by fsmash from dthrow for that to connect. Mixing up throws in general isn't going to work well when the throws are coming far apart since there's no chain grabbing or tech chasing going on.

When I say Doc jumps out I mean he JUST jumps out so that the marth dair hits but doesn't spike. I mean yea I can wait for him but then I'm just fairing with my double jump when doc is at like 30%...

It's all good both characters have lots of options in my opinion I think Marth's advantage leans more slight than solid and it certainly isn't Doc's worst matchup in the game if it's really this complicated to explain how marth ***** doc. I really do want to see vids of a legit marth ****** a legit doc if anyone has them.

 

[Dogysamich]

Basically from grab what ur saying is marth can do nothing or he can hope the doc is not good. If doc just DIs away assuming fthrow he will have time to react if he sees he's being dthrown. Dthrow is laggier for marth so doc has to basically try to get hit by fsmash from dthrow for that to connect. Mixing up throws in general isn't going to work well when the throws are coming far apart since there's no chain grabbing or tech chasing going on.

When I say Doc jumps out I mean he JUST jumps out so that the marth dair hits but doesn't spike. I mean yea I can wait for him but then I'm just fairing with my double jump when doc is at like 30%...

It's all good both characters have lots of options in my opinion I think Marth's advantage leans more slight than solid and it certainly isn't Doc's worst matchup in the game if it's really this complicated to explain how marth ***** doc. I really do want to see vids of a legit marth ****** a legit doc if anyone has them.

If you're constantly throwing doc into the obvious, then yeah, you're going to get little to nothing from it. And no, throwing doc up is not a bad idea, infact it's a **** good idea. I mean, im sorry you dont get a guarenteed hit from it, but throwing somebody into a defensive position is a good thing. Cause again, with Doc above Marth, doc cant REALLY do anything. He can come down with a d.air, and he's gotta hope Marth is asleep at the wheel or something.

Mixing up throws isnt the answer, but you act like it doesnt work. Doc isnt a heavy character, so he's going to get thrown at a fairly decent speed. And whatever happened to b.throw f.smash? I'd swear that works, especially if, oh i dunno, somebody's DIing away from a f.throw (meaning in for a b.throw)

If you cant d.air doc, then hell, you got the same thing I was talking to eggz about, a ****ton of damage (or, just some if doc was DIing out to begin with and only got caught with 1 or 2 hits).

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Yeah, game respect game, im not making all this debate cause Im mad or anything, it's just good discussion. Cause hell, everybody in the state of GA knows that i actually will argue all day that Capfal is a ****ton worse than Marth or Sheik (that's just a me problem though, I gotta keep trying different ****).

But as for a "vid of a legit marth ****** a legit doc"... What legit docs?

You're basically asking for a vid of a marth beating Bob$.

I mean I hate to say it like that, cause I hate to always sound like im riding on bob's nuts, but really, what other doc has done as well has him in the grand scheme of things? You could argue caveman, but that's not really that big of an arguement. And there's no way in hell you could pull some crap and try to throw somebody like s-royal in there.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

Alpha is awesome cause he plays Samus. Don't you play Ganondorf too?(somewhat)>_>

EDIT: I also liked to do Pill to DownB. It worked like, 60% of the time as mindgames. Is that viable or do I just get lucky? I still play Doc every now and then. >_>

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Alpha is awesome cause he plays Samus. Don't you play Ganondorf too?(somewhat)>_>

I play a little bit of everyone, but Samus is were its at XD

 

[S.R. XXVII]

Word. My sig says it all.

 

[Dogysamich]

I play a little bit of everyone, but Samus is were its at XD

Pssht. ***** please.

Where yo beta character?

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Pssht. ***** please.

Where yo beta character?

Yoshi is not a real character
not here or mario kart or mario party
not anywere

 

[Dogysamich]

yoshi killed all the convo in here.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Aren't you supposed to be working?

 

[Dogysamich]

Me? Work?

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!
THAT'S A GOOD ONE.

___

You mean on the guide?

 

[S.R. XXVII]

but Dogy, you didn't answer me(sad face).... Is pill to down B viable?

 

[Dogysamich]

what? When did you ask that?

I mean, I think i know a way you could make it connect, but unless you were just jankin on somebody... why?

 

[S.R. XXVII]

I asked before you posted that Yoshi attack.

But I do it like 2-3 times a match and it usually works. Full hop Pill to Down B. I'm just wondering if it's good or bad to do it in a match. Like the pros and cons of it.

EDIT: Where is your sig/avatar from?

 

[Dogysamich]

you could like, come behind a pill as it's about to hit somebody (it has to be in the latter part of a pill), and then tornado, but you pretty much have to hit them with the tornado first since the first hit of it has no knockback whatsoever.

__

Saber from Fate/Stay Night.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

Okay thanks. I'm so random >_>

You my 2nd favorite Doc btw >_>

 

[cykofox]

Dogy why do you choose to main the doc? just curious..

 

[St. Viers]

CykoFox why can't you maybe look a few pages back for the answer? Someone just recently asked this ^_^

 

[Dogysamich]

CykoFox why can't you maybe look a few pages back for the answer? Someone just recently asked this ^_^

*stab* i dunno why you tryin to come in here hard!

It's a generic Q&A, who the hell would know we talked about this

I mean ****, i just went to look for that post, and it's like, 8 pages back, and i have 40 posts per page.

*hug* im kidding viers dont f.air meh bro!

___

ANYWAY

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6222477&postcount=810

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yes, on the guide.

 

[Dogysamich]

I started working on the moveset part of it.

I dunno, i feel like it's kinda useless. -shrug- Seems blatently obvious to me. I dunno.

I still have to do the smashes and aerials.

I got caught up in some online horribrawl teams.

HEY DONT KNOCK IT TILL YOU TRY IT, THAT **** IS HILARIOUS.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

I only play Brawl to pick Ike, Pika, and Bowser. They all **** in that game.

 

[Dogysamich]

ho shi~~~~~

I finally found that paper i have with all the CC %s for doc.

****'s kinda inaccurate, but it's kinda funny when you realize what you can cc and how long you can cc it.

 

[St. Viers]

barwls teams is the most entertaining thing about the game. Double bowser is too hilarious. Get a stock lead and it's game over XD

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Dogy why do you choose to main the doc? just curious..

Dogy pick up doc cause he wanted a char that look just like him
and i have to say he did a pretty **** good job of doing just that XD
WOH!!!

 

[ranmaru]

I could look like doc too, if I put on that thing... on his forehead. :3 I just wouldn't look italian, but I'm spanish so it don't matter.

 

[Dogysamich]

Watch people get wrecked.

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=RTyHl0lZrfo