Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[JOE!]

That, sir, is a single underplayed character stringing uairs.

ok, so then what is a combo then?

it cant use the same move more than once ever?

 

[LAW2222]

i personally think that lack of combos hurts brawl but i have extreme bias i guess
however, it's pointless to argue on either side
the two games are simply different
compiling a massive list of brawl "combos" isn't going to change anything because no matter how much you try to argue it, the fact of the matter is that brawl lacks a significant amount of applicable combos, as opposed to melee and ssb.

 

[JOE!]

@above:

i think the point of the thread is:

"Yes, brawl doesnt have "as many" true comboes, but does it really matter?"

 

[MookieRah]

Another thing that I'd like to point out, especially with people talking about prediction, is that in a lot of cases Brawl doesn't allow for you to plant a powerful move on your opponent even if you predict it. One of the things that drove me insane when Brawl came out is how incredibly hard it was to punish rolls. The window to hit someone at the end of it is so small that most characters can't reliably plant a kill move even if they knew their opponent was going to be there. The timing is just retardedly tight...

Also "predictability" isnt' what is going on with the best players. They are doing things to trigger the reaction from their opponent. Prediction is nice, but it's not as reliable as subtly provoking reactions from your opponent. Also certain things that seem like they are predicted actually have small tells from your opponent. It's not as mystical as people are making it out to be, although at the same time I'm not downplaying it cause it's seriously one of the big things that determine how skilled someone is at almost any game/sport.

 

[Xyless]

Also "predictability" isnt' what is going on with the best players. They are doing things to trigger the reaction from their opponent. Prediction is nice, but it's not as reliable as subtly provoking reactions from your opponent. Also certain things that seem like they are predicted actually have small tells from your opponent. It's not as mystical as people are making it out to be, although at the same time I'm not downplaying it cause it's seriously one of the big things that determine how skilled someone is at almost any game/sport.

Yep. Basically, pros focus on the small things and abuse mistakes that they assume their opponent will make.

With an analogy to basketball, just because you know how to do crazy basketball dribbling techniques doesn't make you a good player. A good player can use these to try to trip up their opponent, trying to make the opponent guess wrong and abuse the opening they get because they baited an option.

 

[LordAizen]

I have a question I'd like to ask somebody thats played both Brawl and Melee. which of the 2 requires more skill. By Skill i'm not referring to Technical Skill(Since it's obvious the answer is Melee because of WD, SHFFL, CC etc.) but I'm talking about actual skill in that you outsmart the opponent, in that you have to think about what your going to do. I know that In melee you have to outsmart your opponent by anticipating where they'll DI or how to DI out of a combo etc but in Brawl since there are less combos and stuff wouldn't you have to think more? It's just a question because i've been curious which one makes you think more.

 

[LegendofLink]

At the highest level of play, they both take the same amount of mental skill, but in Brawl you usually get punished a bit less for you mistakes, so Melee weeds out the unskilled faster than Brawl at lower levels of play. At least that's how I see it.

 

[UberMario]

It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Melee was more about reflexes and rapid thought processing, while Brawl was about planning out "strategies", analyzing your opponents, and abusing the stage more. So, Melee is better for those that like to play rapidly and fight on the spur of the moment, while Brawl is more about outthinking you opponent and using all of your resources (even the stage itself). I'm personally split on which one I prefer more, I didn't like how "heavy" Melee felt, 64's gravity was pretty good though.

 

[Sliq]

The main problem is that there is not enough stun. As it stands not, more often than not, the person that shields a move is at a frame advantage over the person doing the move, and that is the problem. It promotes camping and highly defensive play, which is fine if you're into that, but most Melee players that bash Brawl aren't.

Brawl wasn't actively balanced. Nintendo didn't give a **** for the most part. Otherwise they would balance moves based on startup lag, end lag, damage, knockback, range, priority, and they would consider frame data.

As it is now, very few characters have "safe" moves that can be used in a rushdown style. In Melee, that was not the case. The defender and offender were on relatively equal grounds, and offense was rewarded more so than defense, which led to a lot more action packed matches which, IMHO, are more fun to participate in, as well as to watch.

There are plenty of things technical about Brawl. It's when you don't hit the L/R-button after every move you want to cancel lag with or wavedash in out that makes it less technical in some players' eyes.

You are wrong. Melee is considerably more technical. While l canceling is a large part of it, in Melee you also had to space your ledge grabs. You didn't magnetically lock onto it without any sort of timing or spacing (especially with Link's hookshot and Samus's Grapple). And because of this, wall teching was a necessity. Furthermore, the ability to wavedash added a great deal of tech skill, from edgehop wavelands (a necessity as a Ganon player, I would say), to platform wavedashing. Sh double laser for Fox, I believe, has a 3 frame window for execution, not to mention the ridiculous amount of tech skill need for wave shining, Fox's up throw up air, Falco's pillaring, Marth's chaingrab, etc.

You clearly have never played competitive Melee, because it is very obvious that Melee is the more technical of the two.

While I do agree with some of these, others aren't problems at all. I always found dash dancing to be rather pointless and it doesn't really change anything now that it isn't there. Sure, you can say that it was for mindgames, but you can accomplish the exact same thing by just standing still. You can dash in either direction just as if you were dash dancing, and you also have access your tilts, jab and smashes, as well as the dash attack, u-smash and ariels you could do while dash dancing.

You are 100% wrong. I can tell from this post that you have 0 competitive Melee knowledge.

Dash dance is comparable to footsies in Street Fighter, where each character will move back and forth to try and bait an attack and simultaneously space for their own poke.

Brawl's dash system is considerably more restrictive in both terms.

As far as cst's are concerned, Melee certainly did have them, but if I remember correctly (and I might not, so correct me if I'm wrong), they tended to be more common among the low-mid tier characters, with the more popular characters only having 1 or 2 at most:

Fox: waveshining, shdl, shl, shine stalling, shining, chaingrabs,

Falco: waveshining, shl, shine stall

Marth: chaingrab

Sheik: Needle canceling, chain grab, up stall and edgehog

Cpt Falcom: down b second jump recovery, the SACRED COMBO, moonwalking

Samus: super wavedash, grapple beam extender, grapple beam cancel, bomb recovery, full hop double missle, missle canceling

Ice Climbers: chain grab, wobbling, desyncing

Peach: float canceling

Ganondorf: chaingrab, down b second jump recovery, edgehop (it seems dumb to say this, but its a vital part of his edge game), tipman spike

Dr. Mario: up b canceling, chaingrabs

Jigglypuff: upthrow rest, drill rest, wall of pain, edgehop sing

Mario: wall jump up b

Pikachu: tail spikes, chaingrab, up b was a *****

Luigi: chaingrab

DK: chaingrab

Link: bomb drops, hookshot recovery, spinhog, up bomb recovery

Zelda: chaingrab

Mewtwo: **** i don't know he's awful

Roy: reverse blazer, chain grabs

GW: chaingrab

Yoshi: double jump cancel

Ness: double jump cancel

Kirby: Kirbycides (from throws as well)

A lot of learning to play a character was how to do their combos. DK does combos entirely different from a lot of characters, so transitioning between some characters was easy, but for some it was a huge pain in the ***. I wouldn't say Brawl has MORE character specific stuff, it just has a great deal more relevance seeing as how universal techs are played down to such a huge extent.

When I first wrote that up, my line of reasoning when it came to shine shenanigans was that it was no different that any other character doing something out of shield, but I guess that shine is a smidgen faster than shield so it does make a difference.

After quite a bit of thought, I think that I came to a final conclusion about why I like Brawl so much: I sucked at Melee. There was such a physical barrier between being good at the game casually and being good at the game competitively, and I, for the life of me, could not get my fingers to move that fast (the same reason that I'm terrible at competitive RTS's like Starcraft). Brawl opened thing up for me, because I no longer had to have amazing dexterity to compete. I just needed to use my head and outwit the opponent. Melee players feel slighted because that skill that they had before has been downplayed, and that is completely understandable. I'm just happy that I don't need awesome physical abilities to be good at a game I like.

This is the best post I have ever read.

I have a question I'd like to ask somebody thats played both Brawl and Melee. which of the 2 requires more skill. By Skill i'm not referring to Technical Skill(Since it's obvious the answer is Melee because of WD, SHFFL, CC etc.) but I'm talking about actual skill in that you outsmart the opponent, in that you have to think about what your going to do. I know that In melee you have to outsmart your opponent by anticipating where they'll DI or how to DI out of a combo etc but in Brawl since there are less combos and stuff wouldn't you have to think more? It's just a question because i've been curious which one makes you think more.

You can't ever discount tech skill as a part of skill, otherwise everyone would be amazing at sports. Execution is an important and vital part of doing...well, anything. For example, I went to school to learn to draw so I could come up with an idea and quickly represent it so others can understand it. You don't have to be able to draw to have a good idea, but if you can't execute it, how the **** will anyone know what it is?

From a mental standpoint, I want to give it to Melee, if only by a little bit, just because there is risk for almost anything you do, so you can't get away with spamming as easily. If you punish MK's tornado 1 out of every 5 tornadoes, you punish him by hitting him once. But if you could string in 4 or 5 hits, it would make up for the damage you may have taken during the other tornadoes. Thus the MK would have to think hard about when to use Tornado, or he'll have his *** handed to him.

Also, from an execution standpoint, Melee blows Brawl out of the water.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Melee was more about reflexes and rapid thought processing, while Brawl was about planning out "strategies", analyzing your opponents, and abusing the stage more. So, Melee is better for those that like to play rapidly and fight on the spur of the moment, while Brawl is more about outthinking you opponent and using all of your resources (even the stage itself). I'm personally split on which one I prefer more, I didn't like how "heavy" Melee felt, 64's gravity was pretty good though.

I've said this and I'll say it again: The bold applies to just about every fighting game, minus the stage thing of course. I don't follow the Melee competitive scene aside from the rare video that I have watched (simply because I've "retired" from Smash), but I'm pretty confident that Melee applies the same concepts, but maybe it's not as obvious to you.

 

[JOE!]

@ list of Melee techniques:

now, Im not sure but i wouldnt rush to call Chaingrabs and such ATs...

 

[Sliq]

@ list of Melee techniques:

now, Im not sure but i wouldnt rush to call Chaingrabs and such ATs...

I only did so because I think that they are way more advanced than D3's chaingrab, which makes up almost his whole game.

Marth's chain grab definitely has to be included, because its the only reason he doesn't get *** ***** by spacies.

Also, a lot of the chaingrabs are ****ing hard to do (Ganon, Zelda, etc) so I felt they deserved to be there, albeit I do see your point. It was hard to really narrow down AT's when I consider a lot of the bread and butter stuff specific to each character AT's in their own right (Fox's up throw up air, Falco's pillaring, etc).

 

[Xyless]

You forgot the nipple spike, Sliq!

 

[ryuu seika]

This is certainly not what I hate about Brawl. A lack of combos may actually have made a better fighting game if it hadn't have been ruined in other ways.

So, Melee is better for those that like to play rapidly and fight on the spur of the moment, while Brawl is more about outthinking you opponent and using all of your resources (even the stage itself). I'm personally split on which one I prefer more, I didn't like how "heavy" Melee felt, 64's gravity was pretty good though.

Melee seemed to have a major strategic element to it, just the speed of play made it rather harder to utilise. Yes, Melee did feel a little heavey, which was why I could only play as Kirby and G&W (Jiggly would have worked if I could remember that he wasn't Kirby) but that did add a certain competetive feel to it that 64 lacked. 64 is the only Smash where I've been able to use the entire cast though and thus I do feel that you're probably right on the gravity issue.

Whatever the case may be though, Brawl gravity was way off.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh look, the thread devolved into people saying BS about both games, what a surprise.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[SirroMinus1]

Yes the lack of true combo's hurt brawl.
The only thing brawl did for me was cause frustration.

Lack of combo's (cool its hurdle i can overcome)
The amount of defensive options (the hurdle just got alittle taller but i can still make it over)
automatic ledge sweet spotting (I might not make it over)
smores & campfire stories (I QUIT)

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm going to sum this up in 5 or more sentences.

Airdodging was the dumbest idea ever.

seriously, that's what kills your combos, you can can get hit then simply airdodge it.

also, your hitlag is terrible, in retrospect, if you get hit in the face with a kick you shouldn't be able to recover for a little while.

really, i think brawl's physics are just bad.

i understand it's a game and there is limitless possiblites for your physics, but they are just, bad.


and people saying "brawl has combos" no,no, no it does not.

It is not even viable to even a single combo.

If we were going to compare brawl to an actual fighting game (i.e street fighter) combos are mostly inesacaple, can't be DIed out of, or airdodged.

Smash64 and Melee actually can be viable to combos because there is enough hitlag to consecutively attack someone without a sudden interruption.

I would love brawl like my left nut if it wasn't for airdodging and that terrible hitlag.

Everything else, i'm alright with, except no sheild pressuring and the fact you can basically bs your way out of any strong attack with DI, vice-versa with regular attacks.

 

[Photos]

I'm going to sum this up in 5 or more sentences.

Airdodging was the dumbest idea ever.

seriously, that's what kills your combos, you can can get hit then simply airdodge it.

also, your hitlag is terrible, in retrospect, if you get hit in the face with a kick you shouldn't be able to recover for a little while.

really, i think brawl's physics are just bad.

i understand it's a game and there is limitless possiblites for your physics, but they are just, bad.


and people saying "brawl has combos" no,no, no it does not.

It is not even viable to even a single combo.

If we were going to compare brawl to an actual fighting game (i.e street fighter) combos are mostly inesacaple, can't be DIed out of, or airdodged.

Smash64 and Melee actually can be viable to combos because there is enough hitlag to consecutively attack someone without a sudden interruption.

I would love brawl like my left nut if it wasn't for airdodging and that terrible hitlag.

Everything else, i'm alright with, except no sheild pressuring and the fact you can basically bs your way out of any strong attack with DI, vice-versa with regular attacks.

Airdodging keeps you safe from pika-thunder spammers.

Brawls physics are what keep it from being just another street fighter, along with the combolessness. while i'm sure street fighter games are fun to lots of people, it's why i play brawl, because you can actually move! and why would you want combos? because the game developers are doing all the fighting for you if the combos are inescapable. if someone pull out a "real" combo, then i can set my controller down, have a snack, a drink, maybe even a stretch, and then pick up my controller when they finish and do my own combo. it's just a big game of "Who can start the sequence first?". melee gave you a chance to actually do something, but brawl now allows for a more intellectual game.
Psh, Street fighter a actual fighting game? riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Yeah, i'm a street fighter hater. Brawl Rocks!

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Airdodging keeps you safe from pika-thunder spammers.

True, but you should learn to just dodge it.

Brawls physics are what keep it from being just another street fighter, along with the combolessness.

Brawl or smash in general, is not street figther, even with combos, it's not street fighter. there is a different style of gameplay.

while i'm sure street fighter games are fun to lots of people, it's why i play brawl, because you can actually move!

oh god rofl, you can move in all games, you can move in smash64, melee, mario, etc. etc.

and why would you want combos? because the game developers are doing all the fighting for you if the combos are inescapable.

no. no. no. no. Smash64 combos are escapable, so are melee, so are street fighters.
>not wanting combos and developers are suddenly doing all the fighting
oh god you're killing me.

if someone pull out a "real" combo, then i can set my controller down, have a snack, a drink, maybe even a stretch, and then pick up my controller when they finish and do my own combo.

loooooooooooooooool there is no ability at all to start combos in brawl (small ones at that) and not all combos are guaranteed to work, or to even finish in smash64 or melee, or even street fighter.

it's just a big game of "Who can start the sequence first?". melee gave you a chance to actually do something, but brawl now allows for a more intellectual game.

...........there is no difference in intellect in either game, you forget about how many AT's, L/Zcanceling are required to be good. also, there is so many techs and so many definitions and frame data for both smash64 and melee, and even street fighter, even brawl too.

Psh, Street fighter a actual fighting game? riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Yeah, i'm a street fighter hater. Brawl Rocks!

...not sure if troll, i'm really, really, not sure.

 

[JOE!]

True, but you should learn to just dodge it.

But, in the AIR? My god, that would require some sort of... air dodge...

Brawl or smash in general, is not street figther, even with combos, it's not street fighter. there is a different style of gameplay.

what he meant was that the lack of "lol comboes" keeps it from being one of the 298312938618261 fighters that just clone the SF2 scheme of things

oh god rofl, you can move in all games, you can move in smash64, melee, mario, etc. etc.

do you have the same kind of movement in SF as you do with any smash character?

no. no. no. no. Smash64 combos are escapable, so are melee, so are street fighters.
>not wanting combos and developers are suddenly doing all the fighting
oh god you're killing me.

What he meant was that once you are hit into a "combo starter", the dev's physics take over for the player, meaning the player is no longer fighting and is just stuck in a combo. In other words, the devs just took over your character.

loooooooooooooooool there is no ability at all to start combos in brawl (small ones at that) and not all combos are guaranteed to work, or to even finish in smash64 or melee, or even street fighter.

Combo: 1 move leading to another with little to no chance of retalliaion from the opponent

*looks at Yoshi's Bair -> tilt at any %*
*looks at Fox's Dair to anything*
*Looks at Sheik's Ftilt leading to Ftilt, Utilt or Jab*
*looks at plenty more examples*

Yeah, there are combos, not just big ******** strings of them

...........there is no difference in intellect in either game, you forget about how many AT's, L/Zcanceling are required to be good. also, there is so many techs and so many definitions and frame data for both smash64 and melee, and even street fighter, even brawl too.

doesnt this kill your argument of brawl sucking seeing as you need just as much mental skill to play it as SF or Melee?


...not sure if troll, i'm really, really, not sure.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

read the post above his, that's basically my standpoint.

also, didn't say it sucked, nor am i trying to bash it.

also, i was comparing most of it to smash64, which obviously people don't understand.

What he meant was that once you are hit into a "combo starter", the dev's physics take over for the player, meaning the player is no longer fighting and is just stuck in a combo. In other words, the devs just took over your character.

okay i'm sorry but i had to quote this.

The dev's physics don't take over the player when a combo starts, the devs aren't even involved with combos.

sure, you have your simple combos, but i'm talking about ones that are actually considered combos, look, you can basically BS out of anything in brawl, due to the terrible hitlag problem.

loooooooooooooooool there is no ability at all to start combos in brawl (small ones at that) and not all combos are guaranteed to work, or to even finish in smash64 or melee, or even street fighter.

Combo: 1 move leading to another with little to no chance of retalliaion from the opponent

*looks at Yoshi's Bair -> tilt at any %*
*looks at Fox's Dair to anything*
*Looks at Sheik's Ftilt leading to Ftilt, Utilt or Jab*
*looks at plenty more examples*

Yeah, there are combos, not just big ******** strings of them

*sigh* i was saying that even in street fighter, melee or smash64, once you start a combo, it's not guaranteed to work or to even finish, also, you have to setup up a combo to do a combo.

 

[JOE!]

by your definition, what is a "combo"?

I see it as a string of hits that flow together with little to no chance of escape.

these exist in brawl

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

well, i've been talking it over with my fellow smash64'ers and i've come to a resoulution that perhaps i was a bit arrogant in my post.

so that's just a simple apology.


Anyways, i suppose there are combos, but just a different way of comboing in brawl.

which also is a referral to the physics problem i stated.

but really, i haven't seen anything i would consider a combo, respectivley.

ex. chaining uairs with falcon in brawl is technically a combo on paper, but to my smash64 eyes, i don't look at it that way.

there could be alot of details i could get into but i'm not as savvy with brawl then i am smash.

 

[Photos]

bravo! i'll second that for SF. it's not my type, but hey, people seem to like so i'll just stick to brawl.

 

[th3kuzinator]

But, in the AIR? My god, that would require some sort of...air dodge...

Ahahaha, I lol'd.

I really did not want to get in the middle of this debate, but I feel soup did not accurately represent the smash64 section with some of his arguments, so I would just like to say a few things.

Keep in mind, I am also from the smash64 section so I will be a little biased towards the game I play

(Having Played All Three Games) I think the main aspects that separate smash64 from brawl are

• Lag Canceling (zcancel)
  • Not being able to completely remove any landing lag from an aerial attack, like in smash64, makes the use of a dair (or any aerial really) close to the ground impractical in Brawl unless you auto-cancel it.
• Hit Stun
  • The decreased Hit Stun that brawl posses compared to the other two smash games makes comboing much more difficult (I am not saying there are no combos, because there are. MKs uairs come to mind)
• Shield Stun
  • The decreased Shield Stun in brawl makes shield grabbing a more viable option and, coming from smash64, I had trouble adapting to the idea of relying more on your shield than normal (at high-level smash 64, players try not to shield at all or only use it on the occasional roll or shield grab)
• Air Dodge
  • Again, a feature in brawl that decreases combo ability but certainly revamps the mindgames aspect. Although smash64 does not have this feature, we do utilize nairs and upbs to escape combos.
• DI
  • I am not going to go in depth here, because all of my DI knowledge is on smash64. Since I never got very good at brawl, I do not have a solid understanding of the different methods or mechanics behind brawl DI. I can tell you however, that smash64 DI can only modify the starting position of your character before actually traveling at their predetermined flight path. Although we cannot change the flight path of our character and try to aim more towards the corner (which you can do i melee, and I am assuming brawl), this starting position smash DI can be an important tool to escaping combos.
• Powershield
  • Nothing to explain here really, smash64 just does not have it.
• SHFF
  • Simply put, smash64 does not allow any character to fastfall until the peak of their jump/sh. For this reason, and z canceling completely removing lag, smash64 does not usually need shff (albeit a few occasions are acceptable). I am curious, does brawl have any used for shff?
• The Ledge Game
  • Unlike Brawl, smash64 does not allow characters to grab the ledge from very far away. Basically, the sweet spotting distance is very short. This makes edgeuarding by using actual attacks more effective. For brawl, edgeguarding as a skill is certainly lower on the list of priorities, as edgehogging is the only truly consistent way to assure your opponent does not come back. From watching some videos, it seems almost impossible to edgeguard a MK unless he self destructs/messes up.

I am sure there are many things I did not touch upon, and I apologize if I missed something important. Of course there are probably endless amounts of brawl advanced techs that I am not even aware of.

Regarding the point of "too many combos" in ssb --> Smash/Slide DI + mashing nair/upb really does help to escape combos. The only character that has the innate ability to combo the mess outta anyone is captain falcon. This does not even become that bad unless you are playing falcon dittos on Dreamland. This, I must admit, is quite silly and at high levels, the first person who gets a grab/usmash pretty much can zero 2 death depending on position. Besides this though, the combo aspect of the game gives it more of a natural feel IMO and it gives something for advanced players to strive for (comboing someone to like 200% and then ending it feels really awesome).

My final verdict is this:

Smash64 & Melee requires more technical skill and hand speed, while Brawl requires more mindgames and spacing nuances. Both games have their pros and cons, and both games have their valid arguments.

I hoped this post helped clear up anything about how smash64 differs from brawl. If I inspired any Brawl players to go check out smash64, click my signature/send me a message/or just post in the smash64 section

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

spotlight stolen because of too busy arguing over a post. but thanks kuz, you put alot of time into this;inspires me to be more specific in posts.

anyways, if you do happen to click that, and are intrested in learning more, then i'll tutor you;kuz already has someone being mentored atm.

 

[MarioMariox2]

All Street Fighter games (sans Fighting Street) have combos. 64 and Melee have combos. Blazblue has combos. Tekken has combos. King of Fighters has combos. Jump Super/Ultimate Stars has combos.

Brawl lacks what almost all other fighters have: "True combos". What it does have is chaingrabs and laserlocks though. So you can say Brawl fine, but it needs a better (if not an overhaul) comboing system so make the game feel faster and more requiring of skill.

This is why there are mods like Brawl+/-/P:M/Unstoppabrawl etc.

It's not bad. It's just not as interesting to those who love the fighting genre a lot.

This is where a quote comes up:

Smashers like traditional fighters. Traditional Fighters don't like Smash

 

[Sliq]

To anyone that says Brawl requires more mental capacity than Melee: you are wrong. That doesn't mean Brawl requires less, it just means that everything that is important in Brawl is important in Melee.

Melee doesn't have as many canned combos as people think. Enemy trajectory can change between percents, as well as with DI. Sure there are some bread and butter combos, but all of those can be escaped if the right requirements are met.

Brawl, IMHO, needs more stun. I wouldn't miss dash dancing, wavedashing, and l-canceling if Brawl had more hitstun and shield stun.

I just want a game that can be successfully played both offensively and defensively, and Brawl isn't that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

All Street Fighter games (sans Fighting Street) have combos. 64 and Melee have combos. Blazblue has combos. Tekken has combos. King of Fighters has combos. Jump Super/Ultimate Stars has combos.

Brawl lacks what almost all other fighters have: "True combos". What it does have is chaingrabs and laserlocks though. So you can say Brawl fine, but it needs a better (if not an overhaul) comboing system so make the game feel faster and more requiring of skill.

This is why there are mods like Brawl+/-/P:M/Unstoppabrawl etc.

It's not bad. It's just not as interesting to those who love the fighting genre a lot.

This is where a quote comes up:

This post is a clear example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Lucario's Fair>Nair is a legit combo until higher percent. Uthrow to Utilt is a legit combo until aura kicks in or they get to high in percent.

Sonic can spin dash to nair to bair.

Link can Bomb>footstool>Dair.

Peach has uair strings, Dthrow to Ftilt at low %.

~

And you say true combos in Melee, like what? Falcon's Dthrow to knee? Fox's Uthrow to uair? Sheik's Dthrow to fair? Roy's Bthrow to Fsmash at mid %? Link's Dthrow to UpB?

Those are legit combos, but a lot of the flashier combos in Melee aren't legit. DI is a fun little thing in all smash games, it lets you change the direction where you are going so you can't always do the same exact follow ups all the time with some strings. Can you chase DI, of course, you can do that in Brawl as well.

The correct thing to say is that Brawl has less combos

 

[MarioMariox2]

This post is a clear example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Lucario's Fair>Nair is a legit combo until higher percent. Uthrow to Utilt is a legit combo until aura kicks in or they get to high in percent.

Sonic can spin dash to nair to bair.

Link can Bomb>footstool>Dair.

Peach has uair strings, Dthrow to Ftilt at low %.

~

And you say true combos in Melee, like what? Falcon's Dthrow to knee? Fox's Uthrow to uair? Sheik's Dthrow to fair? Roy's Bthrow to Fsmash at mid %? Link's Dthrow to UpB?

Those are legit combos, but a lot of the flashier combos in Melee aren't legit. DI is a fun little thing in all smash games, it lets you change the direction where you are going so you can't always do the same exact follow ups all the time with some strings. Can you chase DI, of course, you can do that in Brawl as well.

The correct thing to say is that Brawl has less combos

If you had read my post, I mentioned that I felt that it required a better combo system. Never did I mention (despite looking like an implication) that Brawl had no combos.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you had read my post, I mentioned that I felt that it required a better combo system. Never did I mention (despite looking like an implication) that Brawl had no combos.

Your post pretty much implies that all is has is chain grabs and laser locks. It's poorly worded, the moment you said,

Brawl lacks what almost all other fighters have: "True combos".What it does have is chaingrabs and laserlocks though. So you can say Brawl fine, but it needs a better (if not an overhaul) comboing system so make the game feel faster and more requiring of skill.

You could have gotten away with this if you did put the bolded part in front of the paragraph.

 

[MarioMariox2]

This post is a clear example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Lucario's Fair>Nair is a legit combo until higher percent. Uthrow to Utilt is a legit combo until aura kicks in or they get to high in percent.

Sonic can spin dash to nair to bair.

Link can Bomb>footstool>Dair.

Peach has uair strings, Dthrow to Ftilt at low %.

~

And you say true combos in Melee, like what? Falcon's Dthrow to knee? Fox's Uthrow to uair? Sheik's Dthrow to fair? Roy's Bthrow to Fsmash at mid %? Link's Dthrow to UpB?

Those are legit combos, but a lot of the flashier combos in Melee aren't legit. DI is a fun little thing in all smash games, it lets you change the direction where you are going so you can't always do the same exact follow ups all the time with some strings. Can you chase DI, of course, you can do that in Brawl as well.

The correct thing to say is that Brawl has less combos

Your post pretty much implies that all is has is chain grabs and laser locks. It's poorly worded, the moment you said,



You could have gotten away with this if you did put the bolded part in front of the paragraph.

Well, forgive and forget :D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Very well.

:Happy face:

 

[SmashChu]

Let's look at the biggest competitive game that has ever existed: Starcraft. Starcraft is a national sport in Korea. It's huge. Watching a Starcraft game is like watching a rock concert. They take it very seriously.

Now, does Starcraft have combos. No. You just move Marines and Zerglings across the map. Does it make it a bad E-sports game. Of course not, as everyone in Korea knows about professional Starcraft and those pros make very good money. The big problem here is scapegoating Brawl. Just because Brawl doesn't have combos, doesn't mean it's a bad game. It means you have to play it differently. The Tourney Smash community wants this game to be Melee so bad (to the point of modding it) rather than just accept Brawl for what it is.

The problem with tournament Smash is not combos. It's something big that is holding it back. But that is a story for another day

 

[th3kuzinator]

Well yeah........I mean what if starcraft 3 turned into a first person shooter or something, the players who were familiar with the previous installments would rebuke this change, while people new to the franchise might enjoy it at first glance.

Brawl is obviously less drastic than this comparison, but it is this type of change essentially. The jump from smash64 to melee was pretty big, but the jump from melee to brawl was huge. It effectively made it terrible to all the hardcore melee players and it gave people who were new to the franchise a chance to get hooked.

Also starcraft not having combos makes sense because its an rts....not the best comparison to smash games.

 

[LegendofLink]

What I'm currently puzzled about is what Brawl has that has made it's competitive scene so much bigger than Melee's was if Melee was the superior competitive fighting game. Melee certainly had more depth a far as what you could do with a character and how you could play with a character, yet Brawl has still surpassed it. Anybody have any ideas as to why that is?

Spoiler

/topicchange

 

[Sliq]

What I'm currently puzzled about is what Brawl has that has made it's competitive scene so much bigger than Melee's was if Melee was the superior competitive fighting game. Melee certainly had more depth a far as what you could do with a character and how you could play with a character, yet Brawl has still surpassed it. Anybody have any ideas as to why that is?

Spoiler

/topicchange

First off, I'm not so certain the Brawl scene is bigger than the Melee scene was in its heyday. Secondly, Melee's tournament scene was grown from scratch, and took years of refinement before the current rule set was established.

Brawl pretty much just picked up where Melee left off. Everyone was already highly organized on SWF.

Plus, Brawl's tournament scene is considerably more accessible than Melee's, given the drastic decrease in necessary technical prowess.

 

[MarioMariox2]

The Tourney Smash community wants this game to be Melee so bad (to the point of modding it) rather than just accept Brawl for what it is.

The tourney community has nothing to do with the mods though.

 

[lush]

I'm glad there are people who enjoy brawl. I try to enjoy it but regardless of what I say I like and dislike, I always get bored of it before too long. Whereas melee and 64 I feel like I can play forever.

I feel that being a game about punishment and control and reading (and every word you can come up with on the subject) that having a lack of combos does hurt brawl. It is a lot more 'noob' friendly. Not that people can't be top players and have just as much skill as melee or 64 players, it's just that when you make a mistake in melee it means considerable damage/bad positioning for follow ups/a stock etc. In 64 it most always means losing a stock lol, and in brawl... a lot of times it means nothing.

I feel I've tried to take advantage of peoples' mistakes in brawl before to find myself hitting them only to get hit back because of so little hitstun... Yes a mistake on my part but still am I just supposed to hit and then wait for the read every single time? Punishment should be punishment.

My other main quarrels with brawl include tripping, obviously, and how there are MORE chaingrabs than in melee... In 64 throws killed, so they toned it down and then chaingrabs were born. I hated chain grabs more than super powered throws so I figured brawl would come out with some fix... nope.

Also, I felt there was too much shield stun in 64, it seems like shielding is generally a bad idea, sure it can save you sometimes, but landing l-canceled aerials on shields means grabs or even shield breaks. Melee's shields were much improved compared to these but still not perfect... I feel brawl relies too much on shielding but some might think it ideal... Idk.

Brawl is a good game. I said it... but melee and 64 are much better, in my opinion.