Focusing on Metaknight's weaknesses

[SaveMeJebus]

Metaknight, in most peoples opinions is the best character in the game. Some people say that he is the best character in the game, but not by a lot. Other people say that he is broken and should be banned. Then there are people like me who don't really understand Metaknight and therefore cannot be on either side of the argument. To me, Metaknight is a vary weird character. In my opinion there is a line which a character must cross in order to be banned. What Metaknight does, is he stands on this line, but he never crosses it.

I often hear players like M2K and some of my friends talk about how they wish that the tornado could suck characters up and do more damage or how they wish that MK had an up B break ;then I tell them that those are some great ideas. If Metaknight had all those broken moves, then he could have been years ago. As of right now though, Metaknight is here to stay and we can do one of two things. We can either learn the matchup or quit. This is the reason I created this thread. So that we can find all of Metaknight's weaknesses and beat him instead of just complaining about him and trying to get him banned.

Below, I am going to write down all of the weaknesses that Metaknight has. Maybe you guys already know most of them or you guys may know something that I don't know. If you guys think of more things, post them up.

1. Metaknight is known for having a lot of great OOS options. But those options don't change much if he power shields a characters attack. A lot of characters get better attack options when they power shield their opponent's attack. But MK is stuck with his same old options. This means that If a diddy kong(example) main played an MK main and they power shielded the same amount of times, then the diddy kong main would have gained more from the power shielding then the MK. I think that as people start to power shield a lot more, MK is going to start having a harder time than other characters because of this reason.

2. If your character has a projectile, try your best not to approach him even if he has the lead. Camp the MK for as long as you can and wait for an opening. The way I see it, you're going to get punished for approaching MK and in your frustration, you're going to take even more damage which will eventually lead to a stock loss. Just stay calm and forget the time limit. If the MK does happen to time you out, I'm sure that at least you'll change one person's mind about banning MK(More if you're on live stream). you can guys can argue with me on this one but I have never seen a character without a projectile, an Item in his hand or a disjointed hitbox hit a Metaknight's shield and get away with it even 50% of the time. This could even help us to convince everyone to increase the timer.

3.I have noticed that when most people get Dair camped, they start to shield even if the Dair doesn't touch their shield. This means that by the time the MK is ready to go for the tornado, most player's shields are too small to protect them and they either get shield poked or they get their shields broken. What you should do instead is just walk away. Most character's walking speed is faster than MK's air speed and this means that if MK tries to follow you while he is Dair camping, he will never catch up to you.

4. This should help against MK tilt spammers
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308027

5. If you are above MK and he is using his U-air, don't always go for the air dodge. Depending on what character you use, there are many things you can do to avoid getting hit. Some characters can wave bounce their special moves to avoid being juggled.
Some characters can time their D-airs in order to hit an MK who is trying to bait an air dodge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSxJoUwjTm8&t=49s
Characters can also footstool an MK that is below them although this requires a lot of prediction

 

[Throwback]

....expect to get flamed for even hinting that MK may be less OP with time.

on-topic, MK has a couple of weaknesses:
1. His kill:death percentage ratio is not very good. In other words, he dies early and kills late (at least in theory).
2. He is 4th slowest in the air.
3. He has a hurtbox that is average width, so it's theoretically a touch easier to hit him in his landing frames with certain moves, as opposed to say snake.
4. His sword doesn't interact with most projectiles, forcing him to shield (or tornado through and **** you).
5. His shield is pretty ordinary.

Unfortunately MK is so mobile, small, lag-free & long ranged that he rarely finds himself in a position where his weaknesses are exposed. Also he has a lot of ways around his weaknesses (1: uair momentum cancel; 2: 6 jumps; 3: 6 jumps; 4: nado, small size, great approacher; 5: why shield when you can just attack?)

 

[Flayl]

Has has a bad air grab-release and most characters can force him to release thourgh the air.

His kill:death percentage isn't that bad IMO. Also NAir, DAir and invincibility frames on shuttle loop don't make his shield ordinary.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

If you just walk away from Dair camping, then the situation resets which is just pointless.

 

[highfive]

Has has a bad air grab-release.

Pretty much this.
EDIT- I love your avi Flayl.

I always thought that (on an unrelated note) the IC MU should be 60:40 with IC having the advantage but I realized MK in the air equals GG.

It's not that MK is broken, merely that his pros greatly outweigh his cons. And an intelligent Meta Knight player can easily shutdown an opponent with pure offensive strategy with the already mentioned virtually lagless attacks. So that makes it even more of a problem. You can't punish something like MK's Dair since it's priority greatly out shines any attack worth using.

The verdict is that MK is too efficient while the other characters are sub par since Brawl was never planned out as a competitive game.

TL;DR: MK ain't broke. Just too Melee for Brawl.

Don't flame me.

 

[Spelt]

on-topic, MK has a couple of weaknesses:
1. His kill:death percentage ratio is not very good. In other words, he dies early and kills late (at least in theory).
2. He is 4th slowest in the air.
3. He has a hurtbox that is average width, so it's theoretically a touch easier to hit him in his landing frames with certain moves, as opposed to say snake.
4. His sword doesn't interact with most projectiles, forcing him to shield (or tornado through and **** you).
5. His shield is pretty ordinary.

these aren't really disadvantages, just random facts. :/

and i don't think he dies THAT early, especially for being one of the lightest characters in the game.



inb4 this becomes a new ban mk debate thread.

 

[demonictoonlink]

He doesn't regain health every time he hits an opponents.

He should IMO

 

[Mr.-0]

... I don't really think that MK has any weaknesses, or at least, any that can really be exploited. But he's not a perfect character. Even though he doesn't really have any weaknesses, I am one of the really tiny minority that believe that snake is better than MK. I really only believe this because I think that Snake at the highest potential level of his play is better than MK or any other character at that level. The closest thing to it right now is Ally, who I think has the ability to make Snake the best by proving that he as a person is the best in the world.

 

[Apollo$]

Meta knight da bess but seriously if meta is played by a really competent player then it's either adapt or die.

 

[Dr.Brawl]

MK can't really Meteor Cancel very well. I think it's something like 50 percent to dair spike Mk with Diddy. Other characters probably have a different percents, I think for marth, it's like 40 and Falco it's like 50.

 

[Delta-cod]

Focusing on Metaknight's weaknesses

>Implying MK has weaknesses.

 

[Blacknight99923]

metaknights weakness is snake on halberd

 

[sunshade]

Metaknight the character has no weaknesses reasonably capable of exploitation by another character.

Metaknight being controlled by humans however has the same weaknesses that everyone other human controlled character has. Prediction, and pattern recognition being those two exploitable weaknesses.

Focusing on fighting Metaknight the character is a waste of time. The theorycraft will always end in the statement "Metaknight is going to win no matter what you do" so instead we should focus on the players.

What Mix-ups are available, how do you force the situation, how do you prevent Metaknight from gaining an absolute advantage in every scenario. These are the things we need to focus on.

 

[sunshade]

Screw 502 gateway errors.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Lol at people saying he doesn't have weaknesses.

Be little *****es about it all you want, but you can't say he doesn't have no weaknesses.

He's light.

There, that's a weakness. No one is saying it makes him bad, but being heavy would be a strength, and he is the opposite of that. Weakness.

His jump release. It's bad. It gets exploited to hell by Marth and a lot of characters can do stuff out of it.

He has a lot more. Don't be narrow-minded to the point where you think this character is some god. He's the best. Hell, you can want him banned all you want, but it's not gonna help you beat him, so acknowledge the weaknesses he has and learn what you can to fight him.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Metaknight, in most peoples opinions is the best character in the game. Some people say that he is the best character in the game, but not by a lot. Other people say that he is broken and should be banned. Then there are people like me who don't really understand Metaknight and therefore cannot be on either side of the argument. To me, Metaknight is a vary weird character. In my opinion there is a line which a character must cross in order to be banned. What Metaknight does, is he stands on this line, but he never crosses it.

I often hear players like M2K and some of my friends talk about how they wish that the tornado could suck characters up and do more damage or how they wish that MK had an up B break ;then I tell them that those are some great ideas. If Metaknight had all those broken moves, then he could have been years ago. As of right now though, Metaknight is here to stay and we can do one of two things. We can either learn the matchup or quit. This is the reason I created this thread. So that we can find all of Metaknight's weaknesses and beat him instead of just complaining about him and trying to get him banned.

Been there, done that. Like, 5 times. And you know what? The MK problem is not getting better, but worse.

Below, I am going to write down all of the weaknesses that Metaknight has. Maybe you guys already know most of them or you guys may know something that I don't know. If you guys think of more things, post them up.

1. Metaknight is known for having a lot of great OOS options. But those options don't change much if he power shields a characters attack. A lot of characters get better attack options when they power shield their opponent's attack. But MK is stuck with his same old options. This means that If a diddy kong(example) main played an MK main and they power shielded the same amount of times, then the diddy kong main would have gained more from the power shielding then the MK. I think that as people start to power shield a lot more, MK is going to start having a harder time than other characters because of this reason.

...This is not a weakness, because all it's basically saying is that MK's OOS options are so good that he doesn't need to powershield. Also, he has options that basically beat 90% of anyone else's OOS options, including out of powershield. (Think dair camping, very careful spacing, etc.)

2. If your character has a projectile, try your best not to approach him even if he has the lead. Camp the MK for as long as you can and wait for an opening. The way I see it, you're going to get punished for approaching MK and in your frustration, you're going to take even more damage which will eventually lead to a stock loss. Just stay calm and forget the time limit. If the MK does happen to time you out, I'm sure that at least you'll change one person's mind about banning MK(More if you're on live stream). you can guys can argue with me on this one but I have never seen a character without a projectile, an Item in his hand or a disjointed hitbox hit a Metaknight's shield and get away with it even 50% of the time. This could even help us to convince everyone to use TKD's ruleset.

TKD's ruleset?
Also, the problem with this is that the number of projectiles that hit under the stage are ridiculously miniscule. This is part of why I hate LGLs-without LGLs, I don't have to do frame-perfect planking, or even anything remotely similar to it. I can just hop around under the ledge for a while then regrab, and all of a sudden the falco-MK mu becomes 65-35 or worse. Similar for Fox, Wolf, ICs, Diddy....

3.I have noticed that when most people get Dair camped, they start to shield even if the Dair doesn't touch their shield. This means that by the time the MK is ready to go for the tornado, most player's shields are too small to protect them and they either get shield poked or they get their shields broken. What you should do instead is just walk away. Most character's walking speed is faster than MK's air speed and this means that if MK tries to follow you while he is Dair camping, he will never catch up to you.

...And reset the situation?

This is all I have for now but I will add much more later

There isn't really much to add...

....expect to get flamed for even hinting that MK may be less OP with time.

on-topic, MK has a couple of weaknesses:
1. His kill:death percentage ratio is not very good. In other words, he dies early and kills late (at least in theory).

Uair is a ****ing insane momentum break, and MK can play ridiculously campy. Expect good MKs to be living upwards of 140-150. I lost to a diddy because his utilt was able to kill me at 160. 3 stocks in a row.

2. He is 4th slowest in the air.

...with 5 jumps, nado, glide, etc.

3. He has a hurtbox that is average width, so it's theoretically a touch easier to hit him in his landing frames with certain moves, as opposed to say snake.

Yay theory. He's also way smaller vertically than snake.

4. His sword doesn't interact with most projectiles, forcing him to shield (or tornado through and **** you).

Yeah, it's pretty much the fact that any projectile that an attack would normally beat out will also get wrecked by tornado (anything this side of charged aura spheres), and anything else like Falco's lazer wouldn't be stopped by normal attacks anyways. Add tornado's movement speed, and the average lag on most projectile attacks... Hmm, yeah, sounds like a plan. >.>

5. His shield is pretty ordinary.

And his OOS options are absolutely ********.

Unfortunately MK is so mobile, small, lag-free & long ranged that he rarely finds himself in a position where his weaknesses are exposed. Also he has a lot of ways around his weaknesses (1: uair momentum cancel; 2: 6 jumps; 3: 6 jumps; 4: nado, small size, great approacher; 5: why shield when you can just attack?)

Note to self: read whole post before replying to it. :V

 

[demonictoonlink]

Cadet or whatever I call you...

You are losing this thread SOOOO much. This isn't an anit ban thread. This isn't a pro ban thread. It's a "he's here so let's make the best of it" thread.

The whole point is to examine his weaknesses. Yeah, there may not be many, but that's the point. Saying how good he is isn't the point.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Cadet or whatever I call you...

You are losing this thread SOOOO much. This isn't an anit ban thread. This isn't a pro ban thread. It's a "he's here so let's make the best of it" thread.

The whole point is to examine his weaknesses. Yeah, there may not be many, but that's the point. Saying how good he is isn't the point.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He mentioned weaknesses that hardly count as such and that are easy to work around and I pointed that out. And I know MK will not be banned, I'm working on maining him now in vBrawl too. The weakness of his bad air release seems to be one that we can actually work with. That is, if we can grab him.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think his aerial speed is a pretty huge weakness, and would be the thing to make him a good but not OP character, if he couldn't nado to beat every vertical aerial except his own uair (pretty much). That being said, it's still somewhat exploitable since Metas don't like to use their nado as much if they can't cancel it (which is dumb, it still resets the situation)

 

[Delta-cod]

Lol at people saying he doesn't have weaknesses.

Be little *****es about it all you want, but you can't say he doesn't have no weaknesses.

He's light.

There, that's a weakness. No one is saying it makes him bad, but being heavy would be a strength, and he is the opposite of that. Weakness.

His jump release. It's bad. It gets exploited to hell by Marth and a lot of characters can do stuff out of it.

He has a lot more. Don't be narrow-minded to the point where you think this character is some god. He's the best. Hell, you can want him banned all you want, but it's not gonna help you beat him, so acknowledge the weaknesses he has and learn what you can to fight him.

Being light means he escapes combos.

His jump release is so bad! Too bad good MKs shouldn't really be getting grabbed often, if at all.

Sunshade is correct. You need to beat the player, not MK. At this point, all characters should know their tools against each move in MK's arsenal. All it comes down to now is outsmarting a player using a much better character than you. Don't mess up.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I swear...
I hit post once, it never posted, and I said **** it and turned my computer off.

Now there's two posts...Smashboards...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The only real weaknesses I can think of for MK are his weight, air speed and lack of projectile

But they aren't really weaknesses if you ask me, just more 'slight annoyances'
Theorectically, he should die fairly easily and be out camped by characters with projectiles. Unfortunetly, momentum cancelling helps him live to a reasonably high percentage and he's got so much range, so many quick options and such a fast ground speed that being camped isn't a huge problem for him

Poor horizontal air speed is a definite weakness for him but the only aerials you can effectivly punish because of this are his Fair and Nair and MK won't be using them up close if you're ready to block it/punish it. His grab release is lolzy but grabbing MK is even harder because of his ability to space out of range for a grab and whiffing a grab results in getting D Smashed which is a horribly quick kill move


What sunshade said is right, MK's other options cover his exploitable weaknesses which is why hes the best character in the game

I suppose if he whiffs a grounded Up + B you can punish that by smacking him out of it. I honestly am not entirely sure of how DI'ing when hit by the Tornado works but a reasonable bunch of characters can pop out of it and hit MK out of it on the top part of the Tornado. Lack of a projectile means that if he's losing by stock/percent, he technically has to approach you in order to win if you have a projectile. In theory this is great but in practice, most projectiles are too slow/don't keep MK away long enough for them to really hinder MK's approach

 

[-LzR-]

Some people still seriously think being a light weight is his weakness? That is like his big advantage, he cannot be CG'd by many and is hard to combo and also his uair makes him hard to kill. A perfect combination, thinking he is easy to kill is soooo 08...

 

[AvaricePanda]

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

Useful information but it belongs in the character specific boards.

yeah.

This doesn't really have a place in Tactical discussion, you're going to get a lot better input if you put this where there are actual good MK mains.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Meh, MK has more weaknesses. You don't necessarliy have to powershield his moves to punish them.

 

[CR4SH]

If you just walk away from Dair camping, then the situation resets which is just pointless.

No it doesn't, you just gave up stage positioning.

 

[Mr.-0]

When people are saying he has no weaknesses demon, we meant that he has none that really make him any less of a character. His aerial mobility is definitely bypassed by his recovery and his jumps and glides, and those same things plus his awesome momentum cancelling make his light weight not an issue either. ANd I don't see how is grab release is that bad. Theres no infinite or anything on it. And the rest of his grab game is good, so... I don't think that he should be banned or that he is broken, but I do admit he has no real/major weaknesses, and really known that can be exploited.

 

[Spelt]

yeah.

This doesn't really have a place in Tactical discussion, you're going to get a lot better input if you put this where there are actual good MK mains.

If a moderator wants to move it they will.
you're accomplishing absolutely nothing by posting the same thing multiple times.

 

[Dr.Brawl]

Theres no infinite or anything on it.

Mk, for the common player does have some infinite like stuff, the d tilt. On Rc and Plaza the d tilt, without proper DI can put the opposing player at high percents.

Like Delta was saying it's more of out smarting your player than anything. So basically if it's not M2k it's done.

 

[Mr.-0]

Mk, for the common player does have some infinite like stuff, the d tilt. On Rc and Plaza the d tilt, without proper DI can put the opposing player at high percents.

Like Delta was saying it's more of out smarting your player than anything. So basically if it's not M2k it's done.

I meant like theres no infinite on MK.

 

[Dr.Brawl]

I meant like theres no infinite on MK.

Sorry then I misunderstood.

 

[Limeee]

ice climber players need to step it up kakera style

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This thread is like saying "Let's focus on the positives of the gulf spill" or "Let's think of the good things Ted Bundy did!" or "Let's list things we like about deadly viruses!"

 

[etecoon]

population control is always a plus tbh

 

[wwwilliam0024]

MKs weaknesses

Well im my opinion his only weakness are the grab release and the shuttle loop... OOS options is not really a weakness since he can do the same back at ya..

Pay close attention to these tips.

- Grab realease -

This is probably one of the ONLY REAL weaknesses i see that MK has, since 3/5 of the characters in brawl can use this against him, Ex: The great and powerful Marth can grab release him to end of the stage and pull of a mighty Spike to end MKs life! sweet!! Any character that is Higher in size than MK can do this to him, now dont be stupid..... GO and main GANON!!! or SHIEK..

Its actually quite easy to perform but please make sure you have all that is required:

-make sure you use your anti tornado armor so his CLANK-less move wont have any effect on you.

-God reflexes are required to power shield his 13 downsmash / s ability. (lol all you atheist are ****ed)

-Main a character higher than MK in size (C and D tier recommended)

-While your opponent is focusing on Dair and Uair spam, punch his controller to the floor, he will complain in agony and you can take advantage of the situation and grab MK. (dont worry he'll probably be a nerd with glasses and wont punch you back, so its safe.) *no offense to nerds, just the ones that dont punch you back*


- Shuttle Loop -

Its one of MKs many recovery moves (since he can comeback to the stage with any B move.)

When you think in shuttle loop youre probably thinking:

-Invincibility frames
-Disjointed hit boxes
-Gay-sized hit boxes as in HUGE
-Very powerful hit
-WTF this **** sends you flying backwards?!
(based on fun fact: sakurai ****s the other way around)
-Can gimp in 0%

Well dont pay attention to any of those since the Shuttle loop has a weakness!! Oh yes it does!!!

.... im not ****ing with you.. i swear >___<

Well the attack consists of a loop (obviously), after he does his loop, and hes about to glide, he cant do ****, (probably cause Sakurai didnt really think anyone would block it), so technically you get a free hit on MK!!

Tips on shuttle loop punishment:

-Power shield the loop and then proceed to punishment

-If hes looping on top of you, upsmash is recommended.

-All characters can punish his loop (wtf, i know right?)

-In the match let your self get hit by this attack about 3 times per stock so your opponent gets used to hitting you easily and when he least expects it, BAM!! you power shield and you can punish him with one miserable move..

-In case of fighting a person with a low self esteem, troll about his unnecessary existence and he'll start spamming Shuttle loop with the objective of killing you, unless he starts spamming B then youre ****ed...
(check out the Whorenado thread)

-dont try to gimp this attack, youll die... scientifically proven... YOU WILL DIE

You'll just have to get used to seeing your opponent come back on the stage without going through trouble or the fear of being gimped... and the fun part is that you cant do **** about it..

unless youre GANON or MARTH! and spike that ****!!

SPIKE THAT ****!!!!!

Always have these in mind and i Assure you, you will lose against MK by 1 Stock and 80%, guaranteed.

 

[Excellence]

Lower level players will never and can never understand why Meta Knight is a good player so explaining this to you is a complete waste of time. In order to understand why he's good, you need to learn the game at a higher level and understand each part of it. Then you can see that Meta Knight either dominates in that area or does well enough where he can use his dominance in all the other areas to make up for what he lacks in a specific area. For example, Diddy's Bananas allow him to dominate the stage and control ground moment. This makes his zoning to ground base character weak to bananas or unable to deal with them as effectively unable to compete with him on the ground. Meta Knight on the other hand has his aerial surpremecy, priority, and reach over Diddy Kong which allows him to go a little better than even with him.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Lower level players will never and can never understand why Meta Knight is a good player so explaining this to you is a complete waste of time. In order to understand why he's good, you need to learn the game at a higher level and understand each part of it. Then you can see that Meta Knight either dominates in that area or does well enough where he can use his dominance in all the other areas to make up for what he lacks in a specific area. For example, Diddy's Bananas allow him to dominate the stage and control ground moment. This makes his zoning to ground base character weak to bananas or unable to deal with them as effectively unable to compete with him on the ground. Meta Knight on the other hand has his aerial supremacy, priority, and reach over Diddy Kong which allows him to go a little better than even with him.

I may be wrong, but I disagree with this entirely. As you progress through different levels of skill, the more capable you are at capitalizing on windows of opportunity impossible to identify if you suck.

This became evident at the height of the MK ban discussion, when Pro Ban in general changed their argument from "He's broken" to "He's over-centralizing and destructive to the competitive scene and that his planking is broken"

I could be completely wrong, though.

 

[Spelt]

you don't need to be a high level player to understand stage control/spacing/zoning/priority/etc