Focusing on Metaknight's weaknesses

[Dr.Brawl]

Lower level players will never and can never understand why Meta Knight is a good player so explaining this to you is a complete waste of time. In order to understand why he's good, you need to learn the game at a higher level and understand each part of it. Then you can see that Meta Knight either dominates in that area or does well enough where he can use his dominance in all the other areas to make up for what he lacks in a specific area. For example, Diddy's Bananas allow him to dominate the stage and control ground moment. This makes his zoning to ground base character weak to bananas or unable to deal with them as effectively unable to compete with him on the ground. Meta Knight on the other hand has his aerial surpremecy, priority, and reach over Diddy Kong which allows him to go a little better than even with him.

I agree with with lower players not understanding why he is the best. I don't believe that MK completely destroys Diddy in the air though. The problem during this match up would be more or less what happens if Mk gets control of the bananas. Diddy quickly runs out of options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2NWH82em64&feature=related

 

[DaomarIsBear]

I'm not entirely sure how that point supports the statement he made. Him being at an advantage in the match up has nothing to do with him being the best character or not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This thread is like saying "Let's focus on the positives of the gulf spill" or "Let's think of the good things Ted Bundy did!" or "Let's list things we like about deadly viruses!"

I love how helpful your being to the discussion.

 

[Throwback]

Note to self: read whole post before replying to it. :V

haha I was about to make the same mistake in response...

@excellence: I don't see anyone arguing MK isn't a good character, even bad players like me. Your entire post is a joke.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

@excellence: I don't see anyone arguing MK isn't a good character, even bad players like me. Your entire post is a joke.

Man, being blunt about it is so much easier.

 

[napZzz]

slow aerial mobility, some kinda ****ty jump release according to DTL that doesn't really matter cuz he still ***** the characters who abuse it, and he's sort of light

**** this dude loaded with weakness's that clearly outweigh his pro's by soooo much

 

[-LzR-]

MK being lightweight is a pro, not a con. He is hard to combo, flying farther with his incredible moves. And he is hard to kill. So no, he is not actually light.

 

[6Mizu]

Another MK discussion?
Well, I don't have much time, but it's safe to say he has a good decent amount of weaknesses.


I have a feeling this maybe closed. Eventually.

 

[TheMike]

MK being lightweight is a pro, not a con. He is hard to combo, flying farther with his incredible moves. And he is hard to kill. So no, he is not actually light.

He is the 6th light character in the game if I recall correctly, but this can be seen as a pro, as you said. The only con is probably his vertical survival, because Meta Knight has great horizontal momentum cancel(Uair), which helps him live longer.

 

[C.J.]

Lightness is never a pro... floatyness is. Fox is light and gets comboed hard by everything because he falls fast. Samus is heavy but is floaty.

MK being light is a con, him being floaty is a pro.

 

[Nefarious B]

Lightness is never a pro... floatyness is. Fox is light and gets comboed hard by everything because he falls fast. Samus is heavy but is floaty.

MK being light is a con, him being floaty is a pro.

MK is not floaty. And floatiness sucks by itself, that means your opponent doesn't even have to have legit comboes on you because they can just juggle you to hell and you can't do anything.

To be specific, floatiness is fine as long as you can fast fall quickly. So the ideal would be someone floaty enough to avoid comboes but can fast fall. Characters like Samus are floaty but they can't fast fall quickly, so they get juggle *****, and this model is very similar for many other characters, which is a gaping weakness. If you look at the tier list, you don't have a character that is floaty and has no method of fast falling until you get all the way down to Olimar.

 

[-LzR-]

Luckily no one can juggle MK.

 

[Browny]

I think that as people start to power shield a lot more, MK is going to start having a harder time than other characters because of this reason.

idc if someone already mentioned this, but this is rather pointless.

When MK's dtilt, ftilt and dsmash are all within 5 frames, the only thing which will make people more able to PS them is pure prediction. Then you have to consider you must predict whether the MK will dtilt, dsmash, ftilt, oos nair, dair, upb, grab, jab. All of which are beyond reaction time and you have to guess which one he will use. On the other hand, if the MK has also become much better at prediction, they only have to predict one of a few options which are quicker than reaction time, MK benefits more by this. His options may be less damaging on a PS, but its extremely difficult to PS his attacks compared to the other characters so it negates it to the point of it being MK's advantage IMO.

 

[TheMike]

Fox is light and gets comboed hard by everything because he falls fast.

Fox gets comboed because he falls fast, not because he is light. And Meta Knight doesn't fall as fast as him. Actually, he doesn't even fall so fast. He is the 19th faster character to fall, and Fox is 3rd or 4th faster(I'm not sure. Don't remember correctly).

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Fox gets comboed because he falls fast, not because he is light. And Meta Knight doesn't fall as fast as him. Actually, he doesn't even fall so fast. He is the 19th faster character to fall, and Fox is 3rd or 4th faster(I'm not sure. Don't remember correctly).

That's exactly what CJ just said.

 

[TheMike]

That's exactly what CJ just said.

I misunderstood his first sentence. I thought he said Fox gets comboed because he is light. Anyway, as least I mentioned some interesting data, showing that it isn't a very good idea to compare Fox to Meta Knight when talking about fast falling, because there is a large gap between their fast fall speed.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I could be wrong but there is practically no one that can be compared to fox's fall speed

 

[TheMike]

I could be wrong but there is practically no one that can be compared to fox's fall speed

As far as I know, King Dedede and Captain Falcon can.

 

[-Ran]

Mk invalidates a large portion of the nature of how the game is played against most characters. You cannot punish most of his moves, so punishment style characters aren't capable of dealing damage to him, much less kill him. Even if you attempt to kill him during the lag of a smash-attack, you aren't going to be able to hit him before he is able to get away, or smash attack again. The only character that can effectively edge-guard Meta Knight, is Meta Knight. More so, characters that thrive on doing damage via ledge reads, are typically destroyed off the stage by Meta Knight anyways. Characters that rely on spacing aerials, quickly find that most of their spacing moves are countered by Tornado.

There really isn't a vector that you can approach a great MK player at that would be considered a weakness. He's light, but you can SDi out of almost every multi-hit move, and SDI most horizontal kills. You aren't going to be gimped at early percents, and there will be really no damage from coming back from the edge.

 

[xxmoosexx]

As far as Im concerned this thread should be closed.

Half-way into reading the posts I see that alot of us have come to the conclusion that Meta Knight doesn't have an exploitable weakness large enough to "learn the MU".

The only reason he isn't banned is because humans can not use him to his highest efficiency constantly enough.

The Match Up is this-

Unless you are Diddy, Snake or IC's ADAPT to the player, because you can't beat the character.

End of the MK discussion, there isn't enough exploitable things about Meta Knight that gives you a way to beat him. Get used to it, he gives boost to sucky players and all stars almost hit that ban worthy place.

I love that about the SBR, they won't ban the character because a human hasn't been able to efficiently and consistently bring him to his potential and the reason when I say consistent is because when M2K is having a "good day" or at the peak of his game....he has basically reached "God Mode" and he can't be beat.

Good Job SBR. Good Job.

 

[Throwback]

idc if someone already mentioned this, but this is rather pointless.

When MK's dtilt, ftilt and dsmash are all within 5 frames, the only thing which will make people more able to PS them is pure prediction. Then you have to consider you must predict whether the MK will dtilt, dsmash, ftilt, oos nair, dair, upb, grab, jab. All of which are beyond reaction time and you have to guess which one he will use. On the other hand, if the MK has also become much better at prediction, they only have to predict one of a few options which are quicker than reaction time, MK benefits more by this. His options may be less damaging on a PS, but its extremely difficult to PS his attacks compared to the other characters so it negates it to the point of it being MK's advantage IMO.

3 moves under 5 frames means they all PS the same, assuming your opponent is attacking whenever possible & not trying to wait out the PS.

I think one of MK's weaknesses is that his attacks either a) have 1 or 2 frames of active hitbox; or b) are multi-hit and thus DI-able. Obviously I'm ignoring nado.

Finally, I think MK's dsmash is like 9-10 frames.

 

[smashkng]

MK's Dsmash hits on frame 5 in the front and frame 10 on the back.

 

[Browny]

3 moves under 5 frames means they all PS the same, assuming your opponent is attacking whenever possible & not trying to wait out the PS.

I think one of MK's weaknesses is that his attacks either a) have 1 or 2 frames of active hitbox; or b) are multi-hit and thus DI-able. Obviously I'm ignoring nado.

Finally, I think MK's dsmash is like 9-10 frames.

The funny thing is, MK can vary the speed of his attacks by up to 10 frames (decision making time, drops shield slightly late etc) and they are all STILL below reaciton time rofl.

 

[LASHING_LEAF]

mk is to slow on his moves for me... idk dont ask

 

[Mr.-0]

As far as Im concerned this thread should be closed.

Half-way into reading the posts I see that alot of us have come to the conclusion that Meta Knight doesn't have an exploitable weakness large enough to "learn the MU".

The only reason he isn't banned is because humans can not use him to his highest efficiency constantly enough.

The Match Up is this-

Unless you are Diddy, Snake or IC's ADAPT to the player, because you can't beat the character.

End of the MK discussion, there isn't enough exploitable things about Meta Knight that gives you a way to beat him. Get used to it, he gives boost to sucky players and all stars almost hit that ban worthy place.

I love that about the SBR, they won't ban the character because a human hasn't been able to efficiently and consistently bring him to his potential and the reason when I say consistent is because when M2K is having a "good day" or at the peak of his game....he has basically reached "God Mode" and he can't be beat.

Good Job SBR. Good Job.

Ally's beating M2K when they're both on a good day.

 

[-Ran]

Ally's beating M2K when they're both on a good day.

How's that been working for him at MLG, when the big money is on the line? At the moment 40% of the people that are in the top 100 of the Brawl Ranking use MK in some capacity. That statistic speaks a lot about the current and future metagame.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How's that been working for him at MLG, when the big money is on the line? At the moment 40% of the people that are in the top 100 of the Brawl Ranking use MK in some capacity. That statistic speaks a lot about the current and future metagame.

yeah, but look at the stage list that they have for MLG.

 

[ShadowLink84]

yeah, but look at the stage list that they have for MLG.

Better than EC's ******** stage list.

 

[Nefarious B]

yeah, but look at the stage list that they have for MLG.

As if M2K is counterpicking japes or PS2 or any of the the other atypical stages

 

[SaveMeJebus]

yeah, but Ally probably had to use up his ban on one of those dumb MLG stages

 

[Nefarious B]

Seems to me like it'd probably be RC, which is a pretty standard stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

yeah but that still gives him plenty of dumb stages to go on, like brinstar

 

[Nefarious B]

That's not MLG specific though, many tournies have both of those stages legal.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

my point is that the stage list had a lot to do with him winning

 

[Juushichi]

my point is that the stage list had a lot to do with him winning

Wat? You are aware that in just about any ruleset that isn't "lol let's get as many flat stages as possible", MK has two solid counterpicks that he can go on, right? You also are aware that MK has the potential to be good on **** near any stage, right?

Edit: Also mirroring sentiments of [v] that guy below me.

 

[sunshade]

No it didn't. Mew2king worked his *** of for those victories and deserves our respect, belittling his efforts as stage bias is total bull. I dont think he counterpicked norfair once the entire tournament and he sure as hell did not pick green greens.

 

[vato_break]

so m2k counter-picked neutrals against ally then? there was no stage bias at all?

 

[sunshade]

No more stage bias than the typical east coast stage list.

 

[vato_break]

ah okay! thank you very much for clearing that up! very specific, thanks.

 

[sunshade]

The typical Eastcoast stage list has both Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar legal. Those two stages are the most advantage giving stages for Metaknight. Norfair was added at mlg but Mew2king did not use this stage against ally or anyone else (to my knowledge). He did however use Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar.

This means that the advantages given to M2k by the mlg stage list was equal to that of a eastcoast stage list in regards to counter-picking.

Is that specific enough for you or should I connect more dots?