Focusing on Metaknight's weaknesses

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really wish there was a nicer way to say this.

East coast, your stagelists are ****ing stupid.

 

[vato_break]

I don't think anymore dots can be connected! but, thank you very much again for providing me with the East Coast's Stagelist. I am west coast and i am not very familiar with stage lists of other regions of whom i pay little attention too!

 

[DaomarIsBear]

I really wish there was a nicer way to say this.

MLG, your stagelists are ****ing stupid.

Fixed.

Get at me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Fixed.

Get at me.

And now I could point to either my thread where I explain how banning stages without a very good reason is scrubby (I have never seen an east coast tournament with PS2 or Norfair or GG or PTAD), or how a 3/5-stage starter list is ridiculously unfair game 1 as it is handing certain characters an automatic second counterpick each round, or in fact almost any thread in the stage discussion forum that obviously any TO who uses those rules has ignored.

In fact, I think I will.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280360 <- Critical
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=277492
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230976
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280670

And then there's the varied, and relatively MK-clean results of MLG, as opposed to the consistently MK-swamped results of EC.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

Wait, what characters get automatic counterpicks game one? ICs, Falco, and Diddy correct?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And snake, and DDD AFAIK. I could be wrong, but in most stricter stagelist, yes, they do get stages that are severely in their favorite.

 

[DaomarIsBear]

How is it that these characters are less prominent in the MK swamped region that is EC then?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That's a good question, potentially pointing to the theory that a 9-stage/fullstage/liberal stage list actually isn't that horrible for them.

 

[AllyKnight]

Meta Knight has weaknesses? I didn't know that.

 

[Spelt]

^^^ totally sig'd

 

[ErikG]

The typical Eastcoast stage list has both Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar legal. Those two stages are the most advantage giving stages for Metaknight. Norfair was added at mlg but Mew2king did not use this stage against ally or anyone else (to my knowledge). He did however use Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar.

This means that the advantages given to M2k by the mlg stage list was equal to that of a eastcoast stage list in regards to counter-picking.

Is that specific enough for you or should I connect more dots?

Just a quick nitpick, he actually got a better advantage with MLG list because with only one stage banned, instead of having just RC or Brinstar, he had RC and Brinstar (assuming Norfair was banned).

I am in favor of the MLG list overall, but I had to point that out.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Meta Knight has weaknesses? I didn't know that.

Would explain a lot.

 

[sunshade]

A character only gains an advantage from a stage being legal if it is better than his best or second best stage.

Lets say Metaknights order of best stages goes Brinstar, Rainbow cruise, Norfair.

The opponent will ban his best stage (Brinstar) and now he needs to head to his second best (Rainbow Cruise). Why would metaknight head to his third best stage (norfair) when he has a better stage ready and waiting to be used (Rainbow Cruise)? Take note that both the eastcoast and Mlg have Rainbow cruise and brinstar legal.

Now I understand this is match-up dependent but the general idea holds true. Adding more stages that Metaknight is good on does not help him unless they are better than his other stages.

Adding those other stages however does just the opposite and weakens Metaknight because those are stages which are potentially more advantage giving for other characters.

 

[Flayl]

You're forgetting best-of-5s

 

[sunshade]

Fair enough, but considering that the vast majority of matches will be best of 3 I can say that the advantage given to Metaknight is very minimal unless your name is ally, or adhd.

 

[ADHD]

I really wish there was a nicer way to say this.

East coast, your stagelists are ****ing stupid.

I wish there was a nicer way to say this, but you're ****ing crazy.

And then there's the varied, and relatively MK-clean results of MLG, as opposed to the consistently MK-swamped results of EC.

This is ridiculous. I've stated before that the reason our state is infested with metaknight is because mew2king had the longest presence here.

The typical Eastcoast stage list has both Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar legal. Those two stages are the most advantage giving stages for Metaknight. Norfair was added at mlg but Mew2king did not use this stage against ally or anyone else (to my knowledge). He did however use Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar.

This means that the advantages given to M2k by the mlg stage list was equal to that of a eastcoast stage list in regards to counter-picking.

Is that specific enough for you or should I connect more dots?

Completely false. Jason refuses to pick norfair because he has a moral value about it being wrong. It has nothing to do with advantages/disadvantages. You're assuming other metaknights will not jump on the opportunity just because he hasn't.

 

[sunshade]

I know Jason (do I have to know him to call him by name?) does not like norfair. That is why I said it was equal to the eastcoast stage list for him. I was not talking about other Metaknights in that post.

Even if I was talking about other Metaknights it still requires that norfair be better than either Brinstar or Rainbow cruise for Metaknight to be given an advantage from its addition (save sets of 5 which M2k will be in just about every time anyways).

 

[ADHD]

Even if I was talking about other Metaknights it still requires that norfair be better than either Brinstar or Rainbow cruise for Metaknight to be given an advantage from its addition (save sets of 5 which M2k will be in just about every time anyways).

But it's addition does give metaknight an advantage even if it's not better than brinstar or rainbow cruise. Normally, unless you are metaknight, wario, or maybe pikachu, both brinstar and norfair pose a disadvantage to whatever character you are. When given the ability to ban brinstar if it is the worst stage threat, norfair is basically another brinstar in which he has all of the same terrifying qualities: ability to shark beneath the stage, better aerial game control, and the pressure to keep opponents in the air since their ground games have been weakened and vice versa. Norfair and brinstar are stronger counterpicks than the rest in the set.

 

[Pierce7d]

A lot of EC is actually in favor of either the removal of Rainbow, Brinstar, or both.

Also, I enjoy fighting ADHD on Rainbow. Smashville is dumb for both Diddy and MK, and is typically my first strike in any set.

Since we're talking about MK weaknesses, more people need to just land while holding R when they airdodge into the ground, and then instantly release into a powerful attack. MKs always try to hit landings, and you can just rely on auto-powershielding. If you get hit before shield comes up, then you couldn't have done anything anyway, and you'll get real punishes on Dsmash, or get out of dtilt pressure right away.

 

[sunshade]

I could say the exact same thing about Rainbow cruise being stronger than Norfair and substitute "wario, or maybe pikachu" with "Game and watch, or maybe Zero suit samus".

The point is that the advantage given is smaller than people are making it out to be.

If people want to say anything about mlg they should say that the starter system is unfair however that is not nearly as easy to argue.

 

[ADHD]

I could say the exact same thing about Rainbow cruise being stronger than Norfair and substitute "wario, or maybe pikachu" with "Game and watch, or maybe Zero suit samus".

The point is that the advantage given is smaller than people are making it out to be.

If people want to say anything about mlg they should say that the starter system is unfair however that is not nearly as easy to argue.

The advantage given on both stages are heavy, and yet it only takes on game to give out sets. It can change results and as little as numbers can be the pay-out differences are colassal. There is no chance that one who merely picks up metaknight or another character to defend themselves is going to beat one who is very experienced and a great player in these places. And what then? Are you screwed? Because I don't see how that will benefit the metagame.

I am beginning to think this is all an Overswarm conspiracy. He has set out the MLG stage purposely to promote metaknight so he can gather suffice evidence to ban him, and then hired Alphazealot, sunshade, BPC, and others to post to help defend the stagelist. I see everything.

 

[sunshade]

The advantage given on both stages are heavy, and yet it only takes on game to give out sets. It can change results and as little as numbers can be the pay-out differences are colassal. There is no chance that one who merely picks up metaknight or another character to defend themselves is going to beat one who is very experienced and a great player in these places. And what then? Are you screwed? Because I don't see how that will benefit the metagame.

I don't see anything wrong with inexperienced players who just picked up metaknight losing to experienced metaknights who know the stages better.

I think the best thing for the metagame is to have players use every advantage they can get and push the game to its limits. If something is broken then it should be banned but until it has been proven to be broken it is fair game.

I am beginning to think this is all an Overswarm conspiracy. He has set out the MLG stage purposely to promote metaknight so he can gather suffice evidence to ban him, and then hired Alphazealot, sunshade, BPC, and others to post to help defend the stagelist. I see everything.

STOP ADHD FOR HE IS COMPROMISING THE OPERATION!!!!!!

Spoiler

btw overswarm if you are reading this you need to pay me and alphazealot more.

 

[ADHD]

I don't see anything wrong with inexperienced players who just picked up metaknight losing to experienced metaknights who know the stages better.

I think the best thing for the metagame is to have players use every advantage they can get and push the game to its limits. If something is broken then it should be banned but until it has been proven to be broken it is fair game.

Aight but when you have taken away what everyone else needs against metaknight (a victory in game one, so we don't have to lose with our inexperienced crappyknights) because of his versatility on every stage no matter how you strike it, and everyone else's lack of versatility despite stage striking then what is the point of trying if we will just win game 2 and lose on brinstar or norfair due to the harsh nature of the counterpick game 3? That's not a healthy "use every advantage they can for the win." It's more like a cheap shot, and I'm trying to represent the over all betterment of brawl.

 

[Raziek]

I am beginning to think this is all an Overswarm conspiracy. He has set out the MLG stage purposely to promote metaknight so he can gather suffice evidence to ban him, and then hired Alphazealot, sunshade, BPC, and others to post to help defend the stagelist. I see everything.

.....

 

[Turbo Ether]

ADHD's ability to formulate arguments that almost make sense is kinda impressive.

*Gay Daigo clap*

 

[sunshade]

Aight but when you have taken away what everyone else needs against metaknight (a victory in game one, so we don't have to lose with our inexperienced crappyknights) because of his versatility on every stage no matter how you strike it, and everyone else's lack of versatility despite stage striking then what is the point of trying if we will just win game 2 and lose on brinstar or norfair due to the harsh nature of the counterpick game 3? That's not a healthy "use every advantage they can for the win." It's more like a cheap shot, and I'm trying to represent the over all betterment of brawl.

I feel that the mlg results show that characters other than metaknight can win game one. It wont be easy since Metaknight is more or less a flawless character but it is indeed possible.

.....

[facepalm pic]

I think he might have been joking.

 

[Raziek]

I feel that the mlg results show that characters other than metaknight can win game one. It wont be easy since Metaknight is more or less a flawless character but it is indeed possible.



I think he might have been joking.

Even if he is, the fact that he wants the stage list restricted to handicap MK when it doesn't have to be shows the bias immediately.

MK is JUST ANOTHER CHARACTER. He deserves NO special treatment.

If he's still too good, guess what the option is? BAN HIM.

There is no LOGICAL reason to create unfair and biased restrictions on the system.

 

[John12346]

Probably a bit unrelated, but MK DOES own everybody in the face on 3 out of the 5 available starter stages(Lylat, Battlefield, and YI), which is pretty dangerous considering MK gets to strike off 2 stages... >.>

 

[Raziek]

Doesn't MK own everybody in the face on 3 out of the 5 available starter stages(Lylat, Battlefield, and YI)? That's pretty dangerous considering MK gets to strike off 2 stages... >.>

That depends on the match-up, but the point is more or less valid.

I'd like to re-state something that people seem to frequently miss, however. The 9-starter system is not designed to cripple Diddy/Falco/Snake/ICs nor is it designed to buff MK. It is designed to provide a FAIRER striking system than the one that currently shows a heavy amount of bias due to the nature of the stages included.

The additional 4 stages are designed to even the balance between stages that favor ground-based characters, and stages that favor air-based characters. THAT'S IT.

We are not targeting specific characters, nor SHOULD we.

We work to make the SYSTEM as CONCEPTUALLY FAIR as possible. This does NOT mean we try to artificially balance the tiers. If ANY character (In this case, Meta-Knight) is TOO POWERFUL in a system designed to be CONCEPTUALLY fair (And not artificially limiting, like the 5-starter), then the problem is not with the system, it is with the CHARACTER.

I will restate this, to emphasize what people continually miss.

We work to make the SYSTEM as CONCEPTUALLY FAIR as possible. This does NOT mean we try to artificially balance the tiers. If ANY character (In this case, Meta-Knight) is TOO POWERFUL in a system designed to be CONCEPTUALLY fair (And not artificially limiting, like the 5-starter), then the problem is not with the system, it is with the CHARACTER.

Please read this, and please get away from the notion that liberal stage-lists favor specific characters. They are designed to be fair, and include as many stages that are conceptually legal as possible. THEY DO NOT INTENTIONALLY HINDER OR BUFF CHARACTERS.

 

[Spelt]

The additional stages aren't FAIR at all though.
They ARE biased towards meta knight.
Just the plain and simple fact.

 

[Raziek]

The additional stages aren't FAIR at all though.
They ARE biased towards meta knight.
Just the plain and simple fact.

Did you read my post at ALL?

The fact that MK is extremely good on these stages is IRRELEVANT to the fact that they are LEGITIMATE COUNTERPICKS. We do NOT ban stages simply because a character is powerful on them, and WE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ARTIFICALLY BALANCE THE TIER LIST BY OMITTING LEGITIMATE STAGES.

I'll post it again, since you clearly missed it the first time around.

We work to make the SYSTEM as CONCEPTUALLY FAIR as possible. This does NOT mean we try to artificially balance the tiers. If ANY character (In this case, Meta-Knight) is TOO POWERFUL in a system designed to be CONCEPTUALLY fair (And not artificially limiting, like the 5-starter), then the problem is not with the system, it is with the CHARACTER.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

A lot of EC is actually in favor of either the removal of Rainbow, Brinstar, or both.

Holding to my claim that "EC IS ****ING ******** WHEN IT COMES TO STAGELISTS".

Since we're talking about MK weaknesses, more people need to just land while holding R when they airdodge into the ground, and then instantly release into a powerful attack. MKs always try to hit landings, and you can just rely on auto-powershielding. If you get hit before shield comes up, then you couldn't have done anything anyway, and you'll get real punishes on Dsmash, or get out of dtilt pressure right away.

Can't MK punish airdodge->buffer shield with 'nado? And doesn't he do that a lot?

I wish there was a nicer way to say this, but you're ****ing crazy.

And now why, when I have presented arguments and your arguments basically hold no scrutiny whatsoever? This is like the creationist vs. evolutionist argument, where I have all the evidence on my side, and you still think you're right.

Completely false. Jason refuses to pick norfair because he has a moral value about it being wrong. It has nothing to do with advantages/disadvantages. You're assuming other metaknights will not jump on the opportunity just because he hasn't.

So M2K is a scrub?

ADHD's ability to formulate arguments that almost make sense is kinda impressive.

*Gay Daigo clap*

They only look like they do.

That depends on the match-up, but the point is more or less valid.

I'd like to re-state something that people seem to frequently miss, however. The 9-starter system is not designed to cripple Diddy/Falco/Snake/ICs nor is it designed to buff MK. It is designed to provide a FAIRER striking system than the one that currently shows a heavy amount of bias due to the nature of the stages included.

The additional 4 stages are designed to even the balance between stages that favor ground-based characters, and stages that favor air-based characters. THAT'S IT.

We are not targeting specific characters, nor SHOULD we.

We work to make the SYSTEM as CONCEPTUALLY FAIR as possible. This does NOT mean we try to artificially balance the tiers. If ANY character (In this case, Meta-Knight) is TOO POWERFUL in a system designed to be CONCEPTUALLY fair (And not artificially limiting, like the 5-starter), then the problem is not with the system, it is with the CHARACTER.

I will restate this, to emphasize what people continually miss.

We work to make the SYSTEM as CONCEPTUALLY FAIR as possible. This does NOT mean we try to artificially balance the tiers. If ANY character (In this case, Meta-Knight) is TOO POWERFUL in a system designed to be CONCEPTUALLY fair (And not artificially limiting, like the 5-starter), then the problem is not with the system, it is with the CHARACTER.

Please read this, and please get away from the notion that liberal stage-lists favor specific characters. They are designed to be fair, and include as many stages that are conceptually legal as possible. THEY DO NOT INTENTIONALLY HINDER OR BUFF CHARACTERS.

I agree with all but one part of this-that the 9-starter is better than the 15-starter. It does the same thing for the same reason, but the 15-starter does it better.

 

[Raziek]

I agree with all but one part of this-that the 9-starter is better than the 15-starter. It does the same thing for the same reason, but the 15-starter does it better.

I don't think I ever said the 15-starter was worse, but we've already been over the practical issues of its implementation. With a community that so greatly dislikes change, we need to be willing to work there gradually, and 9-starters is the first major step.

 

[John12346]

Can't MK punish airdodge->buffer shield with 'nado? And doesn't he do that a lot?

That part was even in the 'mk da bes' rap

"Airdodge to the ground, nado will be over there YEAH"

And now why, when I have presented arguments and your arguments basically hold no scrutiny whatsoever? This is like the creationist vs. evolutionist argument, where I have all the evidence on my side, and you still think you're right.

You're prolly right about EC stagelists being wack, but I personally think ADHD(and honestly, everyone else involved with the Norfair/Brinstar debate) put up some very strong points in regards to the Norfair/Brinstar issue.

My personal opinion on this is that Norfair's still a legit cp for certain other characters. In addition to GaW, I hear Link and Ike love to go to that stage. However, with that said, MK STILL probably is the best character on Norfair, and it DOES give him another legit CP, along with another easy stage in the case of a finals match

Imo, this'd be a 50-50 toss-up if it was left to me.

 

[LuigiKing]

What players fail to grasp is that Metaknight's most glaring weakness is not in the character, but in the flaming homosexuality of those who main him. You can use this to your advantage by not wearing shirts to tournaments, flirting during sets, etc. Be creative.

 

[Mota]

^LOL I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Karcist]

Budget, why the hell do you care if MK is banned or not. You have never been to a tournament before and probably never will.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Budget, why the hell do you care if MK is banned or not. You have never been to a tournament before and probably never will.

1. I don't support his ban anymore (K, I do, but I know it's not going to happen. I main him exclusively now)
2. I play a lot of semicompetitive wifi. Like, 5 hours a day between vBrawl and Brawl-.
3. Just cuz my region is dead doesn't mean I can't go to tournaments later.

 

[iRJi]

ignore post.

 

[ADHD]

And now why, when I have presented arguments and your arguments basically hold no scrutiny whatsoever? This is like the creationist vs. evolutionist argument, where I have all the evidence on my side, and you still think you're right.

Erm. There is no difference between being downright crazy and still presenting your arguments that are crazy and still being crazy.