Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Lovage]

My problem lies when they are above the stage, and have the opportunity to mix it up with over-b (long or short) or going for the ledge with firebird.

yeah, this is the only real problem with edgeguarding falco and there's no easy noob answer to it. except "just grab the edge and bair lololol" which is ****ty advice because good falcos mostly use this when they know you don't really have time to safely grab the ledge (especially after a traded hit)

with both spacies, sweedspotting the ledge from above is an amazing insanely good choice that lower level players don't utilize half as much as they could. (watch m2k, zhu, pp use sweetspot from above against like every character in almost every situation after they start their firefox high)


the sweetspot itself is sometimes hittable with certain moves, but it all depends on where exactly they started their up+b from. depending on the angle they're using you may be able to hit them with:

- low ftilt (totally safe, decent chance to hit)
- the very end of fsmash (very risky, has best hitbox under the stage, really likely to hit, very punishable on miss)
- fastfall bair past the ledge. (you pretty much have to fastfall cuz if you don't most falcos will react to your jump and just go high, very high risk, 100% chance of hitting if you do it quick enough and guess correctly)
- dtilt (also very safe like low ftilt, has a decent chance of hitting depending on their angle to the ledge, only good at higher percent when nair/bair will kill them or at certain percents where it can combo into shine)

besides actually trying to hit falco's sweetspot (against good falco players you're gonna have a really hard time doing this,) you want to learn to cover his illusion as best you can and kinda eliminate that from his choices. if you can demonstrate early on that you can punish his onstage illusions most of the time (with bair usually,) he'll be more likely to pretty much rely on sweetspot firebird which means 2 things.

a) you can have more success with moves that counter a firebird above the ledge such as fullhop nair and grab the edge lol

b) you're forcing him to take the ledge each time he recovers WHICH is only good if you've stepped up your "how to beat ledge double lasers" game, which is a whole other topic ppl could write pages about too, but once you start seeing the patterns/flaws in falco player's double lasers you can start beating them a lot of the time

 

[Sinji]

Whats a good edgeguard against samus? Any advice?

 

[omgwtfToph]

edgeguarding samus:
stand at the ledge and do techskill so that you don't lose your warmup lolol



edgeguarding falco:
the way I see it, falco has (like fox) several ways to get back to the stage:

- recovering slowly, with a firefox, or a shinestall into phantasm. if you jump out and try to shinespike, and he commits to an up+B, you get a free kill.
- recovering quickly, by using phantasm immediately. if you wait at the ledge of the stage, turn around and use utilt, dsmash or bair (depending on height), you get a free kill provided your reaction time is ok
- if he's near enough, there's the 3rd option: doublejump back to the stage, which can be dangerous cuz he can jump back with a dair or something

so basically, usually when i knock falco out there, i do one of two things. ESPECIALLY if he's close enough that he can doublejump back, but also if i think the opponent will likely side-B, I stand at the ledge of the stage and get ready to utilt (or dsmash if they go for the ledge). as soon as I see side-B, I utilt into a bair (at higher percents) or shinespike (at lower percents), or dsmash if they go for the ledge. then, if I see the opponent go into an up-B above the stage, I'll pick "low" or "high" and cover one of the two options - usually by getting on the ledge as soon as I see the up-B, and then bairing. you can sometimes cover the low option with a bair (or just climbing up the ledge to edgehog them) and then still hit the high option with a dsmash or bair. experiment

the second thing is I'll just wait for a second to make up-B look attractive, then jump out there and go for a shinespike. some people like to up-B a lot - these people are more susceptible to getting shinespiked, obviously, especially as falco since firebird, unlike firefox, never gets a hitbox until they start flying.

so yeah. last thing, when you play an opponent, try to notice how they usually recover. a lot of people will recover the same way twice or thrice in a row, especially if you fail to cover an option the first time. so like, try to take conscious mental notes (well, you should be doing that anyway, i guess)



i'd like to point out that i disagree with lovage saying "with both spacies, sweedspotting the ledge from above is an amazing insanely good choice that lower level players don't utilize half as much as they could. " specifically, i think that sweetspotting the ledge, especially with up-B from above, is not exclusive to top players like m2k, zhu and pp - i think it's a very ubiquitous option that players really don't cover nearly as much as they should - not just against top players but against players of all levels.

for example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XlWR1UtAGk#t=2m34s

when an opponent is already charging their up-B like that, simply taking the ledge is severely underused in my opinion. understandably, too - staying on the stage offers a positional advantage, because if you take the ledge and the opponent up-B's past you, you've lost your positional advantage, whereas if you cover the high option and your opponent goes to the ledge, the opponent still has to get past you to return to center stage. that said, it's still an underrepresented option considering the payoff, and considering the fact that most space animals in their up-B above the ledge tend to like sweetspotting. so yeah


anyway, the above also applies interchangeably to edgeguarding fox

 

[Tomacawk]

I have a lot of trouble with ledgehop double lasers. I can never get a falling bair through a platform to hit...they always shield or I go too soon and get hit by the lasers
what else can I do? on FD it's easy, you just full hop. But falcos have been banning fd against me for awhile now (***s)
I'm thinking shine oos, usmash oos, ...?

 

[JPOBS]

vs Firefox/firebird that i think is going to try to sweetspot, i sometimes try to waveland off->dj bair the sweetspot angle. If it hits they die. sometimes it trades and im ok with that cuz they still die. This also leaves me with the option that in the event they don't sweetspot, i almost always still have to to run and punish. or at the very least, its better than wd to the ledge cuz atleast the DJ brings me instantly back on stage ad i don't have to get counter-edgeguarded (the way toph explained can happen)

vs falco's double lasers on platforms, i don't know how to punish it directly. I just take the platform with positioning that a fall through bair will be well spaced and let them do it and just see what they do. if they try to jump up at me, my fall thorugh bair will usually beat whatever hey do. if they shield (which is common considering my positon) i fall through bair their shield and start to do spaced pressure and bait rolls/jumps.
while writing this, i thought of how they usually shield after the lasers miss so a fallthrough tomahawk grab wud be ****. imma try that next time i play.

 

[unknown522]

take the edge and b-air. It's amazing.

If you don't think you can grab the edge in time, wait for the illusion with your back turned. If they go for a sweetspot, then you d-smash them. If they go at you, u-tilt/b-air/n-air/etc/etc. If they go above you, then punish where they're gonna land, and/or react to the shorten if they do it.

If they firebird too close, then jump off and hit them with (insert move here). If they're too far, then take the edge and either b-air, or hog them.

If they try to go low, then run off and shine them.

 

[EWC]

Against falco's lhdl, I think you should be able to crouch and then jab/shine him before he can do anything else to you.

 

[voorhese]

i always shine oos his lhdl

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ That sounds incredibly cheap. I need to steal that. (I've already been doing that for ledgehopped aerials, but I didn't think about using it against lhdl .)

 

[Keatsta]

Crouch cancel shine should be strictly better than shine oos. Lasers give 7 frames of hitstun on CC, so you can get a shine out on frame 8. Laser gives 5 frames of stun on shield, and shine oos takes at least 4 frames. 4+5=9>8

 

[FoxLisk]

yeah CC shine is better than shine Oos against LHDL. Consider it against ledgehop dair, though...

 

[Navn]

Thanks alot, i think i'll be experimenting with turning my back to them and timing an uptilt > whatever **** is possible at the given %. Should they manage to grab the ledge with firebird, shine oos sound like the safer option, given that Falco will eat you alive if you CC a ledgehopped dair.

 

[omgwtfToph]

only if he does the dair rather late, mind you. shine oos is probably better anyway tho

 

[ViciousEnd]

only if he does the dair rather late, mind you. shine oos is probably better anyway tho

Shine OoS is viable at virtually every percent where as CC shine only has a narrow window of use. CC Shine feels like a more aggressive option anyways, and you don't have to be super aggressive in this particular situation given that they are already at a disadvantage by being on the edge.

 

[Tomacawk]

can you beat LHDL by putting your back to the bird and spamming utilt, probably tanking a laser or two?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no matter how many times i try to do that in real matches, i can't get it to work.

i like beating it with down angled ftilt, using the half-down input to CC then ftilting after getting hit by the laser(s).

 

[Tomacawk]

no matter how many times i try to do that in real matches, i can't get it to work.

i like beating it with down angled ftilt, using the half-down input to CC then ftilting after getting hit by the laser(s).

I'm gunna try that. Sounds simple but useful. Falco with no jump recovering from low is a free ledge guard

 

[voorhese]

trust me sine oos, you dont even have to do one on the ground, in fact if you jump up with him and shine him its a free kill...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

jason is right, its really simple and effective

i just have a ftilt fetish

 

[genkaku]

So I'm learning the game and have been playing mostly Puff/falco, but the other day I picked up fox for a match and ohmygoodnesssomanyoptionsI'mnevergoingback.
Anything to watch out for?

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're going to run into issues with CC you never thought possible.

And you're also going to dislike how crap your range is.

You're also going to dislike it when you run out of space to dash and get pinned by the edge.

I also can't see you liking it when people camp in spite of your lasers because your lasers don't stun, and you'll probably get impatient first.

Otherwise, nothing really. You've already played Falco so you're probably used to dying from few mistakes and being gimped.



edit:

A really awful but funny trick that sucks but sometimes works vs Falco/Fox Firewhatever is to grab the edge and then ledgedash as they start moving because they hear you snap the edge and are like, "I'll go up + middle then." But if you ledgedash you can then just hit them as they're descending.

Unknown's advice is best though. People really don't just jump off at hit a high Falco as much as they should.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

this is kinda an iffy question, but uhm, my main problem currently seems to be when falco has me in a corner, i can't seem to find a reliable way to get out of the corner, i can't hit them safely generally [mostly due to lasers], or get through them to center stage without getting hit in the mix. i don't have enough room to do a FH nair since i can't get running momentum. i dunno. rolling never works in that situation

i mainly mean FD. the smaller the stage the easier it is for that when it comes to platforms.

 

[omgwtfToph]

what does the falco usually do? if you think he's gonna shffl in, you can FJ a drill in place. or roll at a different time than you usually do.

why not try playing falco yourself in a few friendlies, see what kinda stuff you do to a good player in a corner, and then see how he gets out? it's never just one thing. :P falco can't cover every option on reaction...

 

[joeplicate]

damn i'm gonna try to get back in here


there's no reason why we can't start droppin' some wisdom to try to get all the new fox players started on the right track

 

[GOD!]

maybe jman and lucky should post in here more often giving advice

I would love to see lucky post
And not someone who doesnt even main fox

but what do i know really

 

[Kanelol]

everybody knows fox is nothing but u-throw --> u-air/smash

essential advice for new players picking up Fox

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought fox was nothing but spamming nair shine

 

[omgwtfToph]

relying on uthrow usmash/uair is really good advice for new fox players >.> relying on nair shine isn't o.O

imo

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox is very versatile. Particularly in his movement and ability to threaten people. Consequently, I think Fox is more complicated than that...

 

[Sinji]

Im having trouble waveshine comboing peach. Can someone show me a vid on waveshining peach? I cant find one.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What new Fox players, Joe?

Sinji is like the only one. Lol.

@ Sinji: Peach is like the base level for learning to waveshine because of her low traction. The timing is slightly different when the shine actually connects (versus just waveshining aimlessly) because of hitlag. As always, practice makes perfect.

Edit: As far as actual videos go, youtube any mediocre Fox vs a Peach and you'll see waveshine combos for sure.

 

[4 Aces]

It's not a true CC (it's ASDI down) but it will prevent combos at lower percents (and possibly kill you) and Marth can often ground himself at the mid percents, which opens him up to ground techs, edgecancels (depending on DI / platforms / positioning), and other nonsense. While it is true you can react and counter these, it probably would have been better if you just grabbed him.

edit:

You guys need this.

CROUCH CANCEL:

True CC involves crouching. You cannot crouch while you are in stun. Therefore, if you Drillshine Nair someone, they do not get a true CC. True CC prevents knockdown, knockback, launch, whatever for much longer than...

ASDI DOWN:

ASDI down is commonly (incorrectly) referred to as CC. It is not CC. It is fake CC. It has the same effects of CC but because you're not crouching, the effects are watered down. Don't ask why; I don't know. It can still prevent things from launching, reduce KB, and other stuff but it does it less potently than true CC. If you are in stun (by Shine or whatever) they can ASDI down.



If you do not believe there is a difference...

1) You're ********.

2) Easy way to test:

Requires: 2 controllers, gamecube / wii, SSBM, Jigglypuff unlocked

a. Open 2 players. Be Fox. Have other player be Puff.
b. Have Puff whiff Rest at 0. Hold down.
c. Semi-charge an U-smash.

It knocks her down.

Now, just calibrate the stick so she's in permanent crouch (unplug, hold stick up, plug in while holding up).

a. Kill Fox so your U-smash is fresh again.
b. Semi-charge U-smash the ducking Puff.

It doesn't knock her down. She just sits there.

Thus we can conclude there is reduced KB reduction from just holding down when you're not crouching. Why does this work this way? I don't know, but that's just how it is.

This needs to be stickied.

 

[Evoke]

Instead of asking good situations for Fox, I'm going to ask...
Which situations are the worst for a fox?

 

[Erkekjetter]

Getting grabbed by marth

 

[KirbyKaze]

Im having trouble waveshine comboing peach. Can someone show me a vid on waveshining peach? I cant find one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwpl6GKvTxg#t=1m49s

 

[ChivalRuse]

Or even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlkaDMiIpys#t=2m10s

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would never recommend repeat drillshines as a practical thing with Fox.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

what does the falco usually do? if you think he's gonna shffl in, you can FJ a drill in place. or roll at a different time than you usually do.

why not try playing falco yourself in a few friendlies, see what kinda stuff you do to a good player in a corner, and then see how he gets out? it's never just one thing. :P falco can't cover every option on reaction...

generally he sits back and lasers, while i jump over them in place and shield , if i dont get out of the corner he'll do lasers to grab often. generally when im locked in this corner i'm at high percent, so i assumed attempting to jump over would result in eating a nair or something..

i mained falco before picking up fox instead, like a month or 2 ago. i do the same thing generally, which is laser lock down to a grab when they're cornered.

 

[GOD!]

so vid game theory here:
instead of asking how to beat a b and c, wouldn't it be better to, after a certain understanding of the game, just figure it all out yourself?

that way you train yourself to rely on your own brain. if yur dumb then i mean ur never gonna be good anyway. or u could just memorize every situation possible and flowchart everything in game. idk.

 

[Seikend]

so vid game theory here:
instead of asking how to beat a b and c, wouldn't it be better to, after a certain understanding of the game, just figure it all out yourself?

that way you train yourself to rely on your own brain. if yur dumb then i mean ur never gonna be good anyway. or u could just memorize every situation possible and flowchart everything in game. idk.

Eh, I think it depends.

If someone explains to you how to punish fox/falco's side B recovery with utilt, you haven't really lost out much by being told because it doesn't need any analysis in game. You see Side B, you do uptilt. You don't gain anything from working that out yourself.

On the other hand, if it's a scenario that doesn't have a catch-all and needs you to actually analyse and judge the situation, then maybe figuring it out yourself has merits. Although I think discussion can help you consider potential solutions you wouldn't have thought of alone, it's up to the player to learn to judge what situation requires what solution.