omgwtfToph
Smash Master
in many cases, yes. but getting input from people who know more than you do about certain issues is also a good idea. improvement comes from within, but knowledge often comes from others.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
JPOBS
Smash Hero
it would take much much longer to figure things out for yourself, than it would for you to just take advice/ask questions/learn from others.
Im not even convinced it would be better in the long run. Theres no evidence to suggest that learning things vicariously/from others is any less efficient/good than learning them byself.
i think learnign things on your own only hampers your improvement tbh.
Im not even convinced it would be better in the long run. Theres no evidence to suggest that learning things vicariously/from others is any less efficient/good than learning them byself.
i think learnign things on your own only hampers your improvement tbh.
ViciousEnd
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2010
- Messages
- 297
I think what separates good players from exceptional players are that exceptional players can learn everything from someone else, but still maintain their creativity regardless of where their options originated.
theres no way that there could be evidence either way.. jpobs just think about it. real life experiences are testable in a way u could determine whether one way is better than the other. Like... u need to understand asking for evidence is like saying you want evidence that aliens exist.. its like.. not about evidence.. w/e
If u play someone for the first time ever and they do stuff differently than anyone youve ever played (its smash, there are a lot of styles) then you have to figure out how to beat them really fast.
You only get good at something if you actively practice (beyond talent.. but talent doesnt take you the whole way in smash).
It's not like you dont talk to other people. You should exhaust everything you can do first, then go to others afterward. Incorporating tricks is fine and good, but if youre just a mash up of other players styles and nothing original, youre still unprepared to adapt in a match and as the game progresses.
If u play someone for the first time ever and they do stuff differently than anyone youve ever played (its smash, there are a lot of styles) then you have to figure out how to beat them really fast.
You only get good at something if you actively practice (beyond talent.. but talent doesnt take you the whole way in smash).
It's not like you dont talk to other people. You should exhaust everything you can do first, then go to others afterward. Incorporating tricks is fine and good, but if youre just a mash up of other players styles and nothing original, youre still unprepared to adapt in a match and as the game progresses.
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
I didn't think it was possible before, but according to sveet's youtube comment on Pound 4: Mango vs. Armada (1), you can delay the aerial, but still keep the fast fall in during shield pressures.
Pretty sure you guys already know that...I certainly didn't though. Likewise, would this mean that you can short hop --> fast fall --> waveland forward/backwards as a way to provoke a response? I've tried both of these tactics in the past, but I never could do them, so I just assumed that they weren't doable/practical.
Pretty sure you guys already know that...I certainly didn't though. Likewise, would this mean that you can short hop --> fast fall --> waveland forward/backwards as a way to provoke a response? I've tried both of these tactics in the past, but I never could do them, so I just assumed that they weren't doable/practical.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Yes, that's correct about the short hop fastfall waveland stuff 
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Dang. No wonder all these people make it look so fast. Whenever I did it, it feels slow as hell. T-TYes, that's correct about the short hop fastfall waveland stuff
Guess I'm gonna have to go practice that. Btw, are you going to GG on March 5th?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Yeah, that video was what inspired me to try to do it, but I never realized that it was the fast fall that helped make it look so fluid.
unknown522
Some guy
all I gotta say is that clip that zelgadis did to the peach inspired raynex to play fox even more.
Shine blind inspired me to secondary fox. Back when the vid was new.
Damn that was so long ago.
Shine blind inspired me to secondary fox. Back when the vid was new.
Damn that was so long ago.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Fox ditto tourney vids of me from about a month and a half ago. **** I think I played way too fast. And I missed opportunities to techchase pretty often, by trying to continue an air combo or by not reacting in time.
First match of the set -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrYeyEpuR8
The winner of this set played SilentSpectre btw, it ended up being a really good Fox vs Falcon set haha.
Feel free to critique. D:
And I don't usually do that stupid shine-stall recovery thing right below the ledge that often. I dunno how I developed that habit, but it only lasted over the course of the weekend. Anyway, it probably cost me the set. >_<
First match of the set -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrYeyEpuR8
The winner of this set played SilentSpectre btw, it ended up being a really good Fox vs Falcon set haha.
Feel free to critique. D:
And I don't usually do that stupid shine-stall recovery thing right below the ledge that often. I dunno how I developed that habit, but it only lasted over the course of the weekend. Anyway, it probably cost me the set. >_<
aside from random spots where you try to do something wastfully technical/SD/have imperfect tech skill ( I see you messing up the edge dash the entire game) ...
you basically get out played. From this single match it looks like your missing some fundamental ( up throw > up smash) concepts (picture a puzzle with a few pieces missing around the edges. ) You were way too aggressive and there are a lot of instances where you play with no position/go for super random reads (if you don't feel this way, do note: im inferring play-state from a youtube video.)
You either had a lot of nerves causing you trouble after that SD or you just generally have a wreckless style. you should examine the match for more up smash (read: tech chase) opportunities, ways you can laser more diliberately/diligently (sho out camped/out patienced you REALLY easily.) The beginning of the match is exemplary. Sho takes a platform (he leads you around the stage like you're a little puppy for most of the match) you exchange a few lasers and then jump right in (to the ****.)
Additionally, look for more chances to land shines near the edge. I see he techs them jpretty well but the point where you tech chase > f throw @ ~0% a shine would have set you up in a much better position, especially near the edge like that. (shine has the best knock back of all moves @ zero percent, don't you agree?)
Another good example comes from 1:24. You do the shine stall turn back air and sho up b's high to the platform. He is at such a low percent the only possible way to continue edge guarding would be to shine (and preferably cancel to the platform with a waveland) him back off the stage before he lands (NO DJ = easy target)
the up throw shine > gimp attempt was GREAT, but you messed up in the execution. I think if you had nailed this and hit a double shine you would have been much more likely to take the stock. It is a hella ballsy move to attempt and I give you kudos.
Conclusion: It looked like you were trying to speed run the first stage of Super Mario World (and failing miserably.), rather than playing melee 1v1 against another human.
Tech skill: 80% (maybe 75%)
Application: 60% (maybe 50%)
pvp: needs work
edge guarding: needs work. Too "edge-centric"
You seem to be confined to a certain notion of "How I should play"
and I think you need to get rid of that. (FOR EXAMPLE: The instance where you SD in the beginning, if you had just spaced ftilt you would not have been in such an awkward postion)
F tilt is definitely an under-rated spacing tool vs. high %.
Should go through and count all the situations where you feel like you were read/obvious/predictable and also where you get punished and why/how.
looking forward to the rest of the matches, keep up the great work.
p.s. You, me, and everyone else who hasn't already: NEED TO MASTER THE PERFECT LEDGE DASH.
p.p.s. Watch more Mango(fox)
you basically get out played. From this single match it looks like your missing some fundamental ( up throw > up smash) concepts (picture a puzzle with a few pieces missing around the edges. ) You were way too aggressive and there are a lot of instances where you play with no position/go for super random reads (if you don't feel this way, do note: im inferring play-state from a youtube video.)
You either had a lot of nerves causing you trouble after that SD or you just generally have a wreckless style. you should examine the match for more up smash (read: tech chase) opportunities, ways you can laser more diliberately/diligently (sho out camped/out patienced you REALLY easily.) The beginning of the match is exemplary. Sho takes a platform (he leads you around the stage like you're a little puppy for most of the match) you exchange a few lasers and then jump right in (to the ****.)
Additionally, look for more chances to land shines near the edge. I see he techs them jpretty well but the point where you tech chase > f throw @ ~0% a shine would have set you up in a much better position, especially near the edge like that. (shine has the best knock back of all moves @ zero percent, don't you agree?)
Another good example comes from 1:24. You do the shine stall turn back air and sho up b's high to the platform. He is at such a low percent the only possible way to continue edge guarding would be to shine (and preferably cancel to the platform with a waveland) him back off the stage before he lands (NO DJ = easy target)
the up throw shine > gimp attempt was GREAT, but you messed up in the execution. I think if you had nailed this and hit a double shine you would have been much more likely to take the stock. It is a hella ballsy move to attempt and I give you kudos.
Conclusion: It looked like you were trying to speed run the first stage of Super Mario World (and failing miserably.), rather than playing melee 1v1 against another human.
Tech skill: 80% (maybe 75%)
Application: 60% (maybe 50%)
pvp: needs work
edge guarding: needs work. Too "edge-centric"
You seem to be confined to a certain notion of "How I should play"
and I think you need to get rid of that. (FOR EXAMPLE: The instance where you SD in the beginning, if you had just spaced ftilt you would not have been in such an awkward postion)
F tilt is definitely an under-rated spacing tool vs. high %.
Should go through and count all the situations where you feel like you were read/obvious/predictable and also where you get punished and why/how.
looking forward to the rest of the matches, keep up the great work.
p.s. You, me, and everyone else who hasn't already: NEED TO MASTER THE PERFECT LEDGE DASH.
p.p.s. Watch more Mango(fox)
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
this whole post was pretty good, but this especially. been practicing it a lot. it is so broken :D
JPOBS
Smash Hero
toph ur back in the states?
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Empty SH wavelands are amazing.
makoforce
Smash Ace
spamming laser is the best way to play fox. Shine>SHDL on marth is amazing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You know u-throw -> shine bair? We should start testing whether u-throw -> shine laser works. Improving Fox's metagame one useless trick at a time. 
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I should be... and I should be winning
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Just combo lasers in with your jc waveshines lol. 2 EZ right, amiright.You know u-throw -> shine bair? We should start testing whether u-throw -> shine laser works. Improving Fox's metagame one useless trick at a time.
Fortress | Sveet
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wavedashing from the edge.
wasn't this asked like a page ago?
wasn't this asked like a page ago?
unknown522
Some guy
Just watched it.
4 major things I can think of off the top of my head:
- You missed a lot of grab opportunities (so did he). There were a lot of instances where you guys would stand right in front of each other's Dash Dance and instead of grabbing it, you guys would n-air or do run in shine. Sometimes you did grab him, but that was probably 1/4 of the chances that you had. Probably less.
- You never use u-tilt or u-air. When you did that u-throw -> u-smash at 40% (after throw damage), I was like: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Still, sometimes you should try to anti-air with u-tilt when opponent foxes are charging in at you.
- You dropped a lot of combos, but don't continue to pressure or anything. You gotta do one or the other. I particularly am not great at combos, but I always try to keep pressure if I mess up and try to avoid getting hit if I fail to pressure. Something to work on.
- Too much b-air. You're gonna get DD -> grabbed a lot in matchups if you do it as much as you did in this match. His b-air is too laggy (comparing range-to-speed). You can't miss when using that move, or you're gonna get *****.
Times and more detail later. About to eat spaghetti!!
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
@sveet; lol are you implying that every question asked should be somehow known by everyone who actives this board? 
not everyone reads ALL of this thread.
not everyone reads ALL of this thread.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
mmmm yeah I dashdanced nair a lot in those matches. good point
Interesting that I didn't utilt much, cuz sometimes I use it way too much (to the point of predictability... bleh haha)
thanks for the advice unknown ^_^
Edit: Oh damn, I read from the bottom up so I didn't even see brookman's post until just now. Yeah dude, when I watched the set the one thing I realized was that I was playing the entire game under shoyo's terms. Like I'd keep approaching cuz I thought it was the right thing to do, and I'd end up at the ledge in a bad position for no reason. I gotta take some lessons away from playing Falco and apply better positional pressure.
I'll be a lot more diligent at working on my aggressive mentality.
Interesting that I didn't utilt much, cuz sometimes I use it way too much (to the point of predictability... bleh haha)
thanks for the advice unknown ^_^
Edit: Oh damn, I read from the bottom up so I didn't even see brookman's post until just now. Yeah dude, when I watched the set the one thing I realized was that I was playing the entire game under shoyo's terms. Like I'd keep approaching cuz I thought it was the right thing to do, and I'd end up at the ledge in a bad position for no reason. I gotta take some lessons away from playing Falco and apply better positional pressure.
I'll be a lot more diligent at working on my aggressive mentality.
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Lol looking forward to seeing you there. I don't think you were at Bulldog Brawl last Saturday, were you?I should be... and I should be winning
Fortress | Sveet
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not every question, but a commonly used term should be pretty well known. I was gonna link to the terms thread but it actually isnt in there lol@sveet; lol are you implying that every question asked should be somehow known by everyone who actives this board?
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
yeah cause it's not really a common term lol, i wasn't 100% of what it was until you just said what it was.
i actually don't even like the termage it doesn't really fit with what it is. that's mainly why i couldn't guess it right off the bat
why is the word dash even in there? (L)edgelanding sounds more appropriate.
dash implies your already on the ground (wavedash), land implies your coming from above or below and doing a waveland onto the stage/platform
shrug
i actually don't even like the termage it doesn't really fit with what it is. that's mainly why i couldn't guess it right off the bat
why is the word dash even in there? (L)edgelanding sounds more appropriate.
dash implies your already on the ground (wavedash), land implies your coming from above or below and doing a waveland onto the stage/platform
shrug
'terminology'.
>_>
edge or ledge dash is completely appropriate.
ledge landing?!? please.
I mean, terminology in this game is definitely *** backward but who ever decided to label things like 'wavedash' . . . whatever. I just call it air dodging. I mean, Let's be honest with each other here. WTF is a WAVE DASH. I mean, really?
I introduce "wavedashing" as air dodging to new players cause it makes infinitely more sense than "wavedash" to someone unfamiliar with the game.
Chain grabbing. That has a nice ring to it. Very literal (depending on your definition of chain.)
I think my biggest pet peeve are the terms for ground movement.
dashing/dash dancing/dash cancel. IMO dashing = initial movement and since it can't be canceled by crouching then dash cancel is inappropriate. But for players like us it doesn't matter too much since we already understand what it is. Thank god dash cancel isn't referred to as CC.
jump cancel'd
>_>
edge or ledge dash is completely appropriate.
ledge landing?!? please.
I mean, terminology in this game is definitely *** backward but who ever decided to label things like 'wavedash' . . . whatever. I just call it air dodging. I mean, Let's be honest with each other here. WTF is a WAVE DASH. I mean, really?
I introduce "wavedashing" as air dodging to new players cause it makes infinitely more sense than "wavedash" to someone unfamiliar with the game.
Chain grabbing. That has a nice ring to it. Very literal (depending on your definition of chain.)
I think my biggest pet peeve are the terms for ground movement.
dashing/dash dancing/dash cancel. IMO dashing = initial movement and since it can't be canceled by crouching then dash cancel is inappropriate. But for players like us it doesn't matter too much since we already understand what it is. Thank god dash cancel isn't referred to as CC.
jump cancel'd
JPOBS
Smash Hero
jump cancel is the one that ****s with people the most.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Wavedashing sounds cool; that's all that matters.
4Aces, nah I wasn't there; school johns.
Is Toph back in dah USA or what?
4Aces, nah I wasn't there; school johns.
Is Toph back in dah USA or what?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
no, he went to hawaii to visit the fam bam(immediate). and also go to the tourney.
he wont be back in WA until september or so, after going back to hawaii to say hi to moms again(june)
he wont be back in WA until september or so, after going back to hawaii to say hi to moms again(june)
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Oh, yeah, I'm in Japan right now. I was back for a week haha. It was soooo fun though, ****. Tourney in hawaii with silentspectre, a bunch of locals, bbq both days of the tourney... There was a new years party too, but I had to miss it to catch my flight back haha.
My next flight to the USA will be... to San Francisco, the Wednesday before Genesis 2. AW YEAH
My next flight to the USA will be... to San Francisco, the Wednesday before Genesis 2. AW YEAH
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
was just looking up TAS stuff when you posted that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzyKChSMCw&feature=autofb
Tech skill.
if anyone could explain :30 that'd be cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzyKChSMCw&feature=autofb
Tech skill.
if anyone could explain :30 that'd be cool
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Oh yeah so I see trahh is as hype for CAVE STORY + PRINNY?? as I am.
Fortress | Sveet
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PP does soemthing similar with crouch in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57SgjVx_Z-0
its likely done by walking and then crouching and then walking and then crouching.... quickly.
its likely done by walking and then crouching and then walking and then crouching.... quickly.