Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[C.S. Dinah]

Sorry soul ark, unfortunatly I'm unable to post videos.
Well I guess it can't be proven then.

 

[JhMS]

I dont think Dedede is that of a bad matchup.You can even aproach with SH fair and avoid being shield grabbed.And he doesnt have his key move,the chaingrab.
MetaKnight on the other hand...just ugh.
Meta for Ban tier XD.

 

[M@v]

Finished. Basic description for ALL characters. Now we just have to expand it after discussion.

 

[§witch]

Sounds good man, who do we start with?

 

[M@v]

Sounds good man, who do we start with?

up to you guys, start asking around. Im gonna update Lucarios more 1st, since thats my second and they already covered deep fox vs lucario discussion.

 

[§witch]

Yup, I remember helping them with that. And you were there as well. I can go to the ZSS and pika boards, I'm aware of the crazy almost infinites, but I still want to see what they might have trouble with vs fox.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i don't think Zelda can reflect fox's lasers back at him if he's too far away. like almost max distance of it she'll just reflect every few of them at nothing and still get hit.

 

[§witch]

Yup, fox's lasers never end up hitting him, when reflected.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well thats 1 plus to Fox on longer stages like FD. zelda has to move around to avoid/reflect the lasers. and trying to trade with Dins from too far away is pointless cause Fox can shine it off. >_>

 

[JhMS]

I think we should start with pikachu.Hes the hardest one after all.Or maybe versus Meta because he is like the best character in the game.
Anyway,I vote for Pikachu.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i vote Pikachu. seeing as that is Fox's worst matchup. although isn't it possible when the CG is over and Pikachu is going for the Usmash kill, its possible to airdodge it? i did it before, but it was online and well you know lag was on my side for a change >___> (i hate my Wifi......)

 

[ZodiakLucien]

this is horribly wrong

 

[§witch]

Well thanks for clearing up what's wrong with it...ZSS is the worst match-up. Infinite dsmash.

 

[imdavid]

When will the POSTMODERN matchup guide come out that makes reasonable sense that some characters can simply duck under fox's laser making him unable to force them to approach like strategies against sheik simply say?

 

[§witch]

She can't stay ducked forever can she? If she crawls, it's fine as well. Though I don't do alot of laser camping, I usually nair/dair approach anyways...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

its not too bad of a problem i don't think. yes, she can duck it but unless she's crawling its not like she's doing much. in the time it takes her to crawl all the way to Fox under his blaster. she could have taken the 2-5 blaster shots and got in a dash attack or something.

 

[§witch]

Exactly, and her crawl is really **** slow. That only really works with snake and him dtilt from crawl.

 

[M@v]

ok we will discuss pikachu 1st then!

and people think hes cute....

FOX vs PIKA, DISCUSS!!!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well Pika can't really shoot Fox cause of Shine, but we can shoot him. how well does shoot and run tactics work?

 

[imdavid]

who said anything about crawling towards fox? i just crouch until he comes to me haha

 

[Zhamy]

****.
60-80% chainthrow, great spammy projectile, annoying as hell QAC approach, Dsmash for coverage, ridiculous priority aerials. Once Fox gets Pika in a combo, it's not that bad, but a good Pika player will quickly come back. Basically, it's tons easier for Pika to kill Fox than it is for Fox to kill Pika.

20-80 sound about right?

 

[§witch]

Lolk. I already made a post at ZSS though...

 

[Acex27]

Yeah I really hate the Dsmash for both of those characters, and I think pika can also do Usmash out of the chaingrab as well. The QAC approach, if mastered, is defiinitely annoying as hell, and pika's Nair is another killer, especially when used with QAC.

 

[M@v]

Lolk. I already made a post at ZSS though...

its alright. we will do her right after. and we will include whatever info from there to the discussion.

 

[§witch]

K, sounds good. Though they're less then helpful. The majority said that they could 0-death him, which I addressed in the OP...

 

[Samigi]

Yeah I really hate the Dsmash for both of those characters, and I think pika can also do Usmash out of the chaingrab as well. The QAC approach, if mastered, is defiinitely annoying as hell, and pika's Nair is another killer, especially when used with QAC.

Sorry I've gone a pretty long time....this thread didn't even exist when I was on. What exactly is the QAC approach?

Pika's Dsmash is only lethal if you get hit by all 3 strikes. With a simple bit of DI (I hit up on both the analog and C stick), you can avoid the third hit. You can tell you DI'ed out of it properly because Fox will just flop back to the ground instead of flying through the air to his doom.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

that yellpw rat in general is a pain even if you escape out of Dsmash........

can you outspace Pika with Ftilt and Dtilt poking and avoid Shield grabs?

 

[§witch]

Eh, possibly, but tilts aren't going to win us this match-up.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah but it is something right? a few moves that can twart the dreaded CG is better than nothing.

 

[Zhamy]

can you outspace Pika with Ftilt and Dtilt poking and avoid Shield grabs?

Dtilt is too slow, Ftilt is easily out prioritized. Pika has a bunch of approach->grab setups.

There are other reasons why Pika is such a bad matchup besides the CG. But besides that, even if you can escape the CG, it doesn't change the fact that it can and will happen, and that makes the matchup favor Pika.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh i see. oh well it was just a thought. the only Pika i fight doesn't know about the CG, and doesn't pick Pika that much anyway.....

 

[Acex27]

Sorry I've gone a pretty long time....this thread didn't even exist when I was on. What exactly is the QAC approach?

Pika's Dsmash is only lethal if you get hit by all 3 strikes. With a simple bit of DI (I hit up on both the analog and C stick), you can avoid the third hit. You can tell you DI'ed out of it properly because Fox will just flop back to the ground instead of flying through the air to his doom.

This is an example of what it is and how its used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAc2x7TcEAI

I think there is another vid of Anther playing around with it sumwhere on youtube i just couldnt find it. He used it mainly with Uairs to combo, and Nair was the killing move. I was horrified.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so what else can we do during this matchup? so far its looking like we should just counterpick. is their any stage that can help affect it?

 

[Zhamy]

Not particularly. As far as stages go, most of the ones that would help Fox...also help Pika. I think we can basically wrap up the Pikachu discussion, unless there's something else to offer.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well i've got nothing else too add unfortunately..... i guess im picking Peach or Lucas against Pikachu then. anyway were on Zamus next right? the ***** w/ the Whip.......






(if i were Fox i'd hate for her to be my mistress) >__>;

 

[Zhamy]

Fox v. Pika summary

Pikachu easily has the upper hand in this match up. Nearly all his aerials outprioritize Fox's, and he has a plethora of good approaches, ranging from QAC to a crossup Fair. Also, there's that annoying chaingrab - 60-80% guaranteed. It's possible to DI out of Pika's Dsmash, but that still doesn't stop it from hurting. Thunderbolt also makes for a nice keepaway tactic - unfortunately, Fox can't reflector it properly without risking some major butthurt from Pika. Fox's weight doesn't help him, either, since Pika can combo relatively well on Fox.

Fox does have a bit of a oneup on Pika in terms of camping with his laser, which makes the matchup a little less horrid, as Fox doesn't have to approach and chase. The normal setups work on Pika, but there aren't really any tricks to it.

Fox v. Pika: 20-80

 

[ZodiakLucien]

I'm curious on why you guys think fox has an advantage vs snake. He really doesnt, fox can really surprise snake if he has never played a fox who knows what he's doing. After that point though snake can basically never let fox inside. It's definitely winnable but it's not in fox's favor.

Just throwin this out there sonic is way easier than link or falcon. Sonic can do absolutely nothing to fox. If sonic hits fox's shield WITH ANYTHING a running usmash will almost always hit. uair goes through everything he does and sonic has nothing to threaten fox with.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well Snake can't absolutely camp Fox cause Fox's blaster destroys grenades.

 

[M@v]

Ok that wraps up Pika. We will cover snake eventually, but now its zero suit samus:
Zhamy ima quote you for the pika section, you summed it up really well.


ZERO SUIT SAMUS DISCUSS:

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well the Zamus board didn't put much, but from what i gathered flat stages like FD are good cause with platforms Zamus gets a slight upperhand. we can combo her, but she can also combo us with things like sheilding to Utilt. one person mentioned trying to bait out things like Dsmash, for its after lag. the theres her Dsmash infinite. thre wasn't a mention of camping her out, but i think its possible to play with it for a little while on long stages. shine delay annoys them too.

Edit: I am asking about camping now.