§witch
Smash Lord
FD is a main counterpick VS ZSS. Lasers screw her over badly. Easier to keep good spacing etc.
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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
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Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
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Um, are you guys sure that ZSS has an infinite? I know about the dsmashes, but is it really that serious?
Other than that, I think the match isn't too bad. She has basically two legit killing moves: overB and bair... side B can be baited for a shield usmash. bair, just watch for it, it's pretty obvious when she'll try it.
She has a decent recovery for a tether char, but it's not too hard to hit her off the stage...and play with edge games to try to get the gimp.
Watch for her blaster, obviously...realize that if she rushes in after, you can shine that back to her.
I believe dair goes through everything she has. I know it beats usmashand the hit of her upB...not too sure about utilt. She'll try to dsmash out of shield. just jump again after aerials, or go for a tilt or grab..or even a jab....be quick about it. dsmash has some start up to it...enough to get out of the way of it. Watch for the double dsmash mindgame, though...don't try to rush in after one...jump over it.
Shield punish dash attacks with grab, usmash, dsmash, or aerials, depending on spacing...and watch for gimps.
She can't shield grab you, so even pillaring her shield with dair utilt isn't that bad of an idea.
Preferable CP stages:
Frigate Orpheon ...no ledge = death
Rainbow Cruise ...same idea....but not as bad to her as other tether chars
Yoshi's Neutral is a good overall stage for Fox.
FD
Overall, I think the match is very winnable. Even with the dsmash "infinite"...it doesn't seem like that move would make this impossible. it just makes you be really careful. Realize she's a very limited character as far as move choice in situations is concerned...and be ready to punish certain things. Watch for situations where she would use the dsmash and avoid them. try not to land in front.
overall, if the Fox player is smart about it, I say the match is no worse than even...I may be wrong about how much she can actually get from dsmash here...but that's my opinion, anyway...with an unescapable 50% combo from her, it becomes worse than I'm saying here...but still winnable
Other than that, I think the match isn't too bad. She has basically two legit killing moves: overB and bair... side B can be baited for a shield usmash. bair, just watch for it, it's pretty obvious when she'll try it.
She has a decent recovery for a tether char, but it's not too hard to hit her off the stage...and play with edge games to try to get the gimp.
Watch for her blaster, obviously...realize that if she rushes in after, you can shine that back to her.
I believe dair goes through everything she has. I know it beats usmashand the hit of her upB...not too sure about utilt. She'll try to dsmash out of shield. just jump again after aerials, or go for a tilt or grab..or even a jab....be quick about it. dsmash has some start up to it...enough to get out of the way of it. Watch for the double dsmash mindgame, though...don't try to rush in after one...jump over it.
Shield punish dash attacks with grab, usmash, dsmash, or aerials, depending on spacing...and watch for gimps.
She can't shield grab you, so even pillaring her shield with dair utilt isn't that bad of an idea.
Preferable CP stages:
Frigate Orpheon ...no ledge = death
Rainbow Cruise ...same idea....but not as bad to her as other tether chars
Yoshi's Neutral is a good overall stage for Fox.
FD
Overall, I think the match is very winnable. Even with the dsmash "infinite"...it doesn't seem like that move would make this impossible. it just makes you be really careful. Realize she's a very limited character as far as move choice in situations is concerned...and be ready to punish certain things. Watch for situations where she would use the dsmash and avoid them. try not to land in front.
overall, if the Fox player is smart about it, I say the match is no worse than even...I may be wrong about how much she can actually get from dsmash here...but that's my opinion, anyway...with an unescapable 50% combo from her, it becomes worse than I'm saying here...but still winnable
RPK
Smash Lord
Hm...I wonder...Im wondering if we can reflect her downsmash since Ive heard that she can use it on Ness or Lucas to restore health when they have their psy shield out...Though I havent tested any thing and am too lazy to try at the moment...Though it was just a thought thats probably false. Though it did make me think what attacks of her's can we reflect back at her besides her stun gun.
EDIT: Hm...50% combos arent that bad if she can only take you up to 50% I face a freakin peach that can do that to me and Ive tried getting out of his sh** but no dice...Triple Dair, to Nair, or Down throw to up tilt...Though Zamus is the focus of the convo right now so nvm this edit >.>
EDIT: Hm...50% combos arent that bad if she can only take you up to 50% I face a freakin peach that can do that to me and Ive tried getting out of his sh** but no dice...Triple Dair, to Nair, or Down throw to up tilt...Though Zamus is the focus of the convo right now so nvm this edit >.>
§witch
Smash Lord
That was the best post we've had here yet. I hadn't though of FO, but when that ledge goes to the up position that's an automatic fthrow KO.
EDIT: No, smashes can't be refleced unfortunately.
EDIT: No, smashes can't be refleced unfortunately.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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I forgot to add...dair beats her upB's hit, too... hahaha
I can't wait for the MK discussion....that's one of my favorite matches in the game. : )
I can't wait for the MK discussion....that's one of my favorite matches in the game. : )
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
she can Dsmash twice wait till we fall then the **** begins again.
§witch
Smash Lord
****...but MK vs fox is like one of the mosr fun non-ness ditto match-ups in brawl.
Platforms absolutely **** in ZSS v. Fox is Fox is on top of the platform. Usmash covers a whole lot of area, especially on tiny platforms, just to mention one.
Camping: Easy, but hard to figure out exactly what to do after she gets close. The problem with camping ZSS is that most of her moves have longer range than Fox's, so if she can space properly, she'll just smack you around with a sideB since you can't reach her.
The combo potential on both sides is relatively high, so it's pretty even there. Dsmash infinite is not an infinite; it's possible to SDI out of it.
Camping: Easy, but hard to figure out exactly what to do after she gets close. The problem with camping ZSS is that most of her moves have longer range than Fox's, so if she can space properly, she'll just smack you around with a sideB since you can't reach her.
The combo potential on both sides is relatively high, so it's pretty even there. Dsmash infinite is not an infinite; it's possible to SDI out of it.
§witch
Smash Lord
Yeah, the SDI makes sense, I've never had it done against me though, the timing must be extremely tight.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
what about if she's edgeguarding Fox?
§witch
Smash Lord
Not much she can do I don't think. Except for being gay and dsmashing the edge...
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Make sure to mix up your recoveries...that's a universal strategy with Fox...doesn't matter who you're playing against. MIX IT UP. Go low, go high...firefox, illusion. use everything to keep people guessing.
Main thing about ZSS I can say is to be CAREFUL recovering high against her. She can get a lot of air fast, and land a bair on you if you do not watch for it. That is one of her killing moves, so be very careful with it.
If you recover low, she has an opportunity to grab the ledge, or, if you're closer, jump down and hit you. The latter is VERY risky for her, though, as you can land a hit and she dies, basically, being a tether char. So watch for that.
But basically, though...she doesn't really have too many special tricks for edgeguarding you more than any other character.
oh...watch out for recovering onto the stage, as that's an easy dsmash opportunity for her. I'd say in most cases, the ledge is your best bet...just don't be predictable about it or you will die from an edgehog
Main thing about ZSS I can say is to be CAREFUL recovering high against her. She can get a lot of air fast, and land a bair on you if you do not watch for it. That is one of her killing moves, so be very careful with it.
If you recover low, she has an opportunity to grab the ledge, or, if you're closer, jump down and hit you. The latter is VERY risky for her, though, as you can land a hit and she dies, basically, being a tether char. So watch for that.
But basically, though...she doesn't really have too many special tricks for edgeguarding you more than any other character.
oh...watch out for recovering onto the stage, as that's an easy dsmash opportunity for her. I'd say in most cases, the ledge is your best bet...just don't be predictable about it or you will die from an edgehog
Okay, it's time to correct some misconceptions:
Dair is not that good against Zamus. Utilt out of shield makes Fox a sad vulpine. Pivot dsmash is even scarier if you're being predictable about it.
Zamus has four potential KO moves against Fox: bair, fair, Plasma Whip, Flip Jump. Bair should scare the crap out of you for several reasons. Dsmash -> fair should be horrifying if you're off the ledge, Plasma Whip will give you headaches (can't be reflected). Dsmash -> Flipkick. Kills. People.
Zamus is actually good off the stage, and you will be surprised at how hard she is to gimp what with a huge second jump, Flip Jump and Flipstooling. Be prepared for aggressive edgeguarding.
Dsmash chain is not an infinite, but you cannot SDI it. You can only use regular DI until well over 100%. This will have two effects: it will fully refresh bair, and it will set you up for Dsmash -> bair combos. Don't kid yourself; if a good Zamus lands a dsmash on you, you can kiss that stock goodbye.
I hope this doesn't come off as too confrontational. I just want to make sure these points are clear. Fox has several strengths in this match-up, but they're just not enough.
Dair is not that good against Zamus. Utilt out of shield makes Fox a sad vulpine. Pivot dsmash is even scarier if you're being predictable about it.
Zamus has four potential KO moves against Fox: bair, fair, Plasma Whip, Flip Jump. Bair should scare the crap out of you for several reasons. Dsmash -> fair should be horrifying if you're off the ledge, Plasma Whip will give you headaches (can't be reflected). Dsmash -> Flipkick. Kills. People.
Zamus is actually good off the stage, and you will be surprised at how hard she is to gimp what with a huge second jump, Flip Jump and Flipstooling. Be prepared for aggressive edgeguarding.
Dsmash chain is not an infinite, but you cannot SDI it. You can only use regular DI until well over 100%. This will have two effects: it will fully refresh bair, and it will set you up for Dsmash -> bair combos. Don't kid yourself; if a good Zamus lands a dsmash on you, you can kiss that stock goodbye.
I hope this doesn't come off as too confrontational. I just want to make sure these points are clear. Fox has several strengths in this match-up, but they're just not enough.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
harsh, but thems the facts i guess. :/ looks liek another 2-8 matchup or at least 3-7.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Of course, I mean to mix it up. I said utilt might beat it, but in that case, you can call it out with a shine stall...not that big of a deal, really. Yeah, don't be predictable...got it, but it's still quite viable.
I was not listing kill moves...I was listing ones that actually come into play in a real match....without dsmash first, of course. Ones that are viable with dsmash. Fair is indeed good, however, it can be DIed up quite well, so it's efficiency is beat pretty badly there. It can kill, and it's good in certain situations, but Zamus players will usually try the bair when they're trying to kill. PLasma whip, to be honest, isn't that good against Fox. Played correctly, I believe almost every whip should be punished with a smash...because Fox can run inside it and shield smash it easily. Yeah, it's great for spacing, but it's REALLY beatable.
Flip Kick...sure...it will kill. I just hadn't really thought a Fox player would stand there for it...and I had already said to beware of dsmash.
No, I agree with you here...she can stay out there for a LONG time and still make it. She is easier to gimp with Fox than about 60% of the cast is, though.
I'm not convinced this is a true infinite...I really don't know what to think here...
no no, I'm not taking offense or anything...I just want to clear things up, too. I'm not quite ready to throw in the towel on this match, though.
Like I said. In the strictest sense of of the word, "infinite," it's not one. But it's inescapable up to around 100% if the dsmash is stale. It has already undergone extensive testing in the ZSS community. The only way you can get out is if the ZSS player messes up.
2-8 would be a bit heavy-handed. 3-7 is more along the lines, simply because Fox can KO Zamus and combo her well enough, despite her massive advantage.
Browny
Smash Hater
what... i know this is on ZSS atm but still...
Easy to combo? easy to kill? outprioristize him overall? Im not going to go into detail here, but surely you can come up with a better analysis than that. Do a little research and you'll find spring makes combos on sonic practically impossible, fast as all hell with an ungimpable recovery and very good roll-dodge makes killing sonic hard, and he outranges fox in the air and on the ground with multiple attacks.
M@v
Subarashii!
It was just a quick skim. I havent done too many fox vs sonics, sine most people dont play sonic competitively...I was going on my few experiences. Like I said, all of the descriptions are basic untill the advanced discussion is done.
Im tired guys, Ill put the highlights so far from the fox vs zss discussion on the main post tommorow.
Btw thankd for all the replies so far! Im amazed there are this many. Is the fox forum beginning to NOT BE DEAD anymore?!
JhMS
Smash Journeyman
I dont have many experience in the matchup but:I think fsmash is very useful.It can send Zamus far and ready for a shine spike.
But yeah,this matchup is bad.One dsmash can really hurt.
We need to play unpredictable.Play safe.
But yeah,this matchup is bad.One dsmash can really hurt.
We need to play unpredictable.Play safe.
M@v
Subarashii!
Phootbag and Fenrir VII nice input, including parts of it on the main page.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so is this all for ZZS? who's next?
M@v
Subarashii!
Lets give it one more day, I know who Im doing next, but itll be a secret. All Ill saw is that there have been several people(including me) itching to get to it.
the end 101
Smash Rookie
This helped... ALOT!!!! Thanks
RPK
Smash Lord
Metaknight?
M@v
Subarashii!
Thats a Wrap For Zero Suit. Next up, A matchup I know you guys have been wanting to get to: METAKNIGHT
I want to spend a decent amount of time on this matchup, since you will almost certainly have to face him if you go to a tourney. Hes really popular on allisbrawl ladder too. Since hes arguable THE best character we need to break this one down bigtime. I know Fox has a hard uphill battle here, almost as bad as ZSS and pika, but this needs to be discussed in-depth.
I made a thread in the MK forums about this as well.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189304
I want to spend a decent amount of time on this matchup, since you will almost certainly have to face him if you go to a tourney. Hes really popular on allisbrawl ladder too. Since hes arguable THE best character we need to break this one down bigtime. I know Fox has a hard uphill battle here, almost as bad as ZSS and pika, but this needs to be discussed in-depth.
I made a thread in the MK forums about this as well.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189304
A6M Zero
Smash Ace
Ahhh yes....Metaknight...
My matches versus metaknights have always been about picking your battles, you just simply cannot duke it out with that piece of fury. You have to dance with him, wait for him to take a shot, and then perform your combo. Beating metaknight is a test of patience and accuracy.
A6M's Guidelines:
Cut your utilt combos a little shorter, Usmash quicker.
Be extra conservative in your usmashes for KO's.
Do not attempt to edgeguard.
Do not attempt to aggress upon him.
My matches versus metaknights have always been about picking your battles, you just simply cannot duke it out with that piece of fury. You have to dance with him, wait for him to take a shot, and then perform your combo. Beating metaknight is a test of patience and accuracy.
A6M's Guidelines:
Cut your utilt combos a little shorter, Usmash quicker.
Be extra conservative in your usmashes for KO's.
Do not attempt to edgeguard.
Do not attempt to aggress upon him.
Shears
Smash Master
im not sure if this was said but some dude posted about this thread in the metaknight boards and some other guy mentioned foxs dair to usmash. every single move fox does after his dair can be powershielded by metaknight or by (im pretty sure) any character. now foxs dair to grab, which i havent seen done, i think would be inescapable seeing that the only way to avoid any of the other attacks is with a grabable shield but then again the shielding character could probably grab fox first. again im not sure if this was all mentioned i just wanted to make sure everyone knew that any dair combo with fox to a character on the ground can just be powershielded.
_X_
Smash Lord
lolwut?
No they can't. If it could be power shielded it wouldn't be a combo. They've already done the lag over hit-stun math...
I also think that Falco being in the "Major Disadvantage" is extremely exaggerated.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
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Wow, this is completely false...let me just clarify that. Dair to utilt always works if timed correctly...dair dsmash sometimes does...dair usmash does...other things do...
blah false info sucks.
I'll actually post on the topic after a while. I'm too busy for a full length discussion atm.
grandmaster192
Smash Ace
I counter pick Marth against Fox usually instead of going MetaKnight. Or I'll go all Marth if I know someone is using Fox. Fox is so fast and powerful that stuff that's usually safe with MK can be punished.
Shears
Smash Master
no i know for a fact that metaknight can powershield any of foxs moves after his dair. if its not a powershield fox can get the attack off, but if shielded at the exact moment metaknight will not get hit by the follow up attack.
§witch
Smash Lord
Fox's grab is faster than MK's, sorry bro.
JhMS
Smash Journeyman
I usually use a hit and run tactic versus Meta.Lasers to keep at bay and dair to anything i can when he is open.If i grab him I usually do a grab attack just to get more %,and unfortanely foxs grabs dont have a safe follow up.
You cant edgeguard meta,so thats out.He can and it can be a pain.As always,be unpredictable when recovering,trying to trick him.Firefox can be very punished so if thats your only option I think is a lost stock versus meta.
Now,to kill him:The famous up smash.When he is at high % just drop shield and run upsmash.Don get predictable on that though.
Also try to be at the center of the stage most of the time.If you are colse to the edge you can eat a dsmash.
So this is a very hard matchup.As always,be patient,play safe.
You cant edgeguard meta,so thats out.He can and it can be a pain.As always,be unpredictable when recovering,trying to trick him.Firefox can be very punished so if thats your only option I think is a lost stock versus meta.
Now,to kill him:The famous up smash.When he is at high % just drop shield and run upsmash.Don get predictable on that though.
Also try to be at the center of the stage most of the time.If you are colse to the edge you can eat a dsmash.
So this is a very hard matchup.As always,be patient,play safe.
No, and the frame data proves it.
Dair->Utilt at certain percents
Dair-> Jab always
Dair->Usmash at 80%+ (Which is pretty much KO range)
MK is difficult to kill off the side of the stage, so don't do it. Make him approach you, Usmash him to death. Lasers are only useful in making him approach, but you should drop your lasers well before he comes close to dash grab range.
Overall, this is really a game of "who is the better player?" Both have huge advantages and disadvantages, and it's simply a matter of who plays those off better.
Kanzaki
Smash Champion
I'm a Mario main, but whenever I fight a Metaknight, I switch up to Fox.
What I mainly do is spam lasers, til the Metaknight get to about 80-90%, and I try to get an upsmash in for the kill. Of course I try not to be predictable. Entire match just consists of me running around spamming lasers, that is all. Maybe a few grabs/fair/dair/nair/utilt, but that's it, and they're just used for spacing so I can run away and spam more. What I like doing is dair->jab combo, and when they DI out of the kicks, I run away and spam more lasers. If I do get a grab, and I'm near the edge, I throw off. I don't attempt to edge guard, but instead, I spam more lasers while they float back on the stage =]
When they're at high percent, I wait for an opening, either them doing a laggy move(Tornado) they I can lead into a hyphen smash, or anything else along those lines. A few times I won due to time running around, same amount of stock, but they have higher percentage.
What I mainly do is spam lasers, til the Metaknight get to about 80-90%, and I try to get an upsmash in for the kill. Of course I try not to be predictable. Entire match just consists of me running around spamming lasers, that is all. Maybe a few grabs/fair/dair/nair/utilt, but that's it, and they're just used for spacing so I can run away and spam more. What I like doing is dair->jab combo, and when they DI out of the kicks, I run away and spam more lasers. If I do get a grab, and I'm near the edge, I throw off. I don't attempt to edge guard, but instead, I spam more lasers while they float back on the stage =]
When they're at high percent, I wait for an opening, either them doing a laggy move(Tornado) they I can lead into a hyphen smash, or anything else along those lines. A few times I won due to time running around, same amount of stock, but they have higher percentage.
A6M Zero
Smash Ace
For the most part, Kanzaki said most of what I meant to imply in his last paragraph, I've never liked the idea of running around spamming lasers though, If MK wants to come at me, he can get kicked in the face.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
also MK is a bit to quick to make dominant laser spam effective, unless you wanna draw out the match for a long time runnning around firing. other than that Kanzaki did say most of what goes on during my matchs with MK.
RPK
Smash Lord
Tornado information that I had posted
.Your best bet though is to approach it from the top and drop down onto it towards the eye of the tornado...You can do it with either nair or dair and sometimes even fair. Though I think your best option is Dair because the first hit gets cancel'd out and then right after the other parts of the dair make contact with Metaknight. My nairs keep getting cancel'd out most of the time. However, it still stops the tornado. If you get below him and he is low enough to you...Upsmash him out of it or if your daring enough and he is high enough, come at him with an uair...Unless you can connect with the forward smash, which can also break through. In order to break through the tornado, you have to hit metaknight himself and not the yellow...AVOID THAT AT ALL COSTS!!! DONT GET HIT BY IT!!! The thing with taking down the tornado is perfect spacing and only hitting with the attacking portion which will have the most priority. Dont put Fox in the way of it. Just hit with the tip of the attack and make sure it actually hits Metaknight.
Even if he short hops the tornado, and your close enough, you have just enough room to get close enough to the tornado without getting hit and upsmashing him out of it...And remember, 82 is his kill percent for an upsmash...
.Your best bet though is to approach it from the top and drop down onto it towards the eye of the tornado...You can do it with either nair or dair and sometimes even fair. Though I think your best option is Dair because the first hit gets cancel'd out and then right after the other parts of the dair make contact with Metaknight. My nairs keep getting cancel'd out most of the time. However, it still stops the tornado. If you get below him and he is low enough to you...Upsmash him out of it or if your daring enough and he is high enough, come at him with an uair...Unless you can connect with the forward smash, which can also break through. In order to break through the tornado, you have to hit metaknight himself and not the yellow...AVOID THAT AT ALL COSTS!!! DONT GET HIT BY IT!!! The thing with taking down the tornado is perfect spacing and only hitting with the attacking portion which will have the most priority. Dont put Fox in the way of it. Just hit with the tip of the attack and make sure it actually hits Metaknight.
Even if he short hops the tornado, and your close enough, you have just enough room to get close enough to the tornado without getting hit and upsmashing him out of it...And remember, 82 is his kill percent for an upsmash...
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