Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[BEES]

lolwut?

No they can't. If it could be power shielded it wouldn't be a combo. They've already done the lag over hit-stun math...

I also think that Falco being in the "Major Disadvantage" is extremely exaggerated.

Agreed on that second note.

 

[FzeroX]

I never understood why MK was a bad match-up for fox, I find him to be even with him, every single MK that I come up against I can 0-60/70% them at least 2 lives with mindgame combos(which I have several ranging from 0-40% even to death).

So I have never had a hard time fighting him so could someone please tell me why he is a bad match up.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Thing is, he's not a bad matchup at all. imo, Fox is an MK counter. I don't really have time to post something really big right now, I'll post later...but yeah, Fox is freakin GOOD against MK.

 

[Ryan-K]

does grab release -> usmash work on mk or am i just out of it lol

air grab release obviously but fox is taller so if u grab him hes automatically in the air

 

[M@v]

does grab release -> usmash work on mk or am i just out of it lol

air grab release obviously but fox is taller so if u grab him hes automatically in the air

Im not completely sure...Ill have to test it.


Fox may not be as bad against MK as initially thought, but we still have a lot of discussion left.

I myself pick Lucario, my other main for this matchup. Fox may wind up being decent against MK, but Lucario, if played right, is an awesome MK killer.

 

[Zhamy]

does grab release -> usmash work on mk or am i just out of it lol

No, they can double stick DI out of it. However, it's pretty hard to predict, so it's relatively reliable.

After some reworking and testing, I'd have to say this matchup actually favors Fox slightly, probably 55-45 or 60-40.

MK is light and very susceptible to some of Fox's most devestating combos, and dies especially early to the standard Dair->Usmash. The very beginning of the match may pose some trouble in racking up damage reliably, simply because MK is so fast and knockback at early stages won't let you effectively DI chase because of low hitstun. However, Fox does have one other big advantage, and that is his ability to camp MK. Granted, it's not as effective because of MK's speed, but laser spam will help quite a lot. Since Fox doesn't have to approach, this opens many more of his options than "Dair->Something," and makes Fox's game much less predictable. Bairs/Nairs Become amazingly useful, and DI chased Uairs at mid percents make MK fly (off the screen). Tornado is a pain to deal with, but a Dair/Nair from the top will stop it cold. The rest of MK's arsenal is still to be feared, so don't think Fox's "advantage" makes the matchup easy. Fox can beat MK, but you're going to have to play at a very high level of prediction and thinking to utilize that tactical advantage.

Fox is hampered by his poor and predictable recovery, and if you're under the stage, don't expect Fire Fox to save you. MK is a master at gimping, and you will get gimped. Varied Fox Illusions are probably your best bet for recovering, canceled, at different heights, etc. Do not try to edgeguard MK, because you will get *****. Other than that, watch out for MK's usual repetoire of quick combos and annoying gimping.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Just a quick tidbit, with Fox, getting hit by tornado is usually a GOOD thing. Now, you shouldn't get hit if you can help it, but no worries if you do...double stick DI up early enough, and you usually pop out of it REALLY quickly...the tornado then ends, and you get a free dair -> whatever out of it because of the after lag. I love that one.

 

[KheldarVII]

I have to say, some very useful things in this topic. I personally enjoy using Fox and I think the big disadvantage he has is that once he's predictable you can shield or counter most things he throws. I mean, he has very little zero risk tactics but if you confuse the hell out of your opponent, it gets very favorable.

And Meta Knight isn't a bad matchup but he can surely take you to school all around the stage if you're not careful. He's one of the hardest characters to punish, as well as Wolf. I remember that after blocking a D-smash, never try to counter from the ground, oh geez...

Anyways, someone said that the D-air -> jab works at 0% on every character? Does this mean I can master some sort of D-air -> jab -> grab/d-tilt/f-tilt and have it work a majority of the time? That could be helpful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What the hell? 7:3 against Sonic?
Fox in no way has such a large advantage

Blaster means nothing to Sonic, if you SH it he can spincharge into you without getting hit.
If you ground laser he'll be capable of grabbing you, Dthrowing you for a chain, Uthrowing you for an easy Usmash or Uair (Fox's Dair gets broken by these).

sonic gimps Fox hard, once off stage fox is at a major disadvantage

fox has a better ground game but it in no way shuts down Sonic's. Alot for Sonic's approaches are non committed so if you take one action it is most often than not, incorrect and will lead to getting punished.
Many of sonic moves lead into a chase that can lead to fox getting knocked off the stage and lead to early gimp kills.

he is far from being easily comboed, his spring activates near instantly so you aren't going to be juggling him very easily either.

There is also the issue that Sonic does not need to rack up much damage on Fox to kill him. Fox's lightweight means that if Sonic lands a smash or knocks him away, Fox is most likely going to be off stage and get setup for a gimp,.

What Fox has on Sonic is attack speed and killing power. Approach wise sonic beats him. Aerially Sonic beats him.
Recovery wise Sonic beats him by a massive amount, which means you will either have to go for a Usmash kill or Uair kill since its the fastest method of killing Sonic.

I woul say 6:4 Fox's advantage at best since Fox doesn't have that much over Sonic.


Oh and concerning MK.
I would have to say 65:35 MK's advantage.
The main issue is that Mk has much more range than Fox and is equal in terms of attack speed. He also has an easier time comboing and can gimp Fox very easily. Fox really needs to play defensively because if he goes on the offensive, MK will murder him each and everytime.

it is best to try and punish mistakes if possible and if Fox cannot, maintain spacing away from Mk and use the blaster to bat and frustrate MK.

 

[Mmac]

I like to point attention that Fox vs. Yoshi is probably no longer even. Yoshi has a Grab Release off the edge to an unavoidable Fair Spike on Fox that can kill him as low as 7%. A bit situational, because he needs to grab him right on the ledge, but it's pretty much an instant kill no matter what, even if he manages to do it under 7% due to Fire Fox being easy to Edgehog

 

[M@v]

Great input so far guys...I added some of this to the main page. Your name will on top of the part contributed.

 

[xiferp]

Grabs that need to be on edges don't really happen too often. Otherwise, Snake would win ever moar.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Ok, this match is no worse than even. I consider Fox to be a MK counter in this game, except nobody expects it. Of course the match is still hard, and takes some getting used to, but it's certainly not bad at all.

First of all, if Fox is above MK and smart about it, Fox can't be cleanly hit. dair always trades or beats MK's moves, with the exception of utilt and nair sometimes. It beats uair. It beats upB (the most popular MK strat). they can shield it, but if you are fast about it, your utilt or jab WILL beat their dsmash coming out. If a Fox lands behind MK with it (which he always should), the MK can't even grab out of it. MK can't land a legit grab combo on Fox, really, but his grabs set you up to get hit again, if the MK is smart

Bair beats the range of all of MK's aerials, so the fox player should be able to completely control the air game here...which is an oddity against MK. This means MK has to play a mainly ground game, including certain SHs, grabs, shield smashes, mainly...and upB sometimes.

SHs can be beaten, as I said, with either FH dair or SH bair. If the MK is shielding, try to land a dair behind his shield...a grab can be spot dodge dsmashed...either that or wait out the spot dodge to usmash or something. UpB is beaten straight up from above with dair. If you are in front, be ready for the glide attack. If the MK player attacks the shield with the tip of his sword, you can beat it, roll away. You CAN beat a glide attack higher on your shield or closer to you with grab or usmash out of shield...yes, they both beat the dsmash if you're fast enough.

Tornado is completely taken out of the game here...You can attack it from above with Dair, with good spacing... If you are on the ground, you can shield it, and sometimes punish it afterward with a grab (best choice) or usmash. if you get hit by it, YOU CAN DI UP out of it...very quickly, and come down with a dair on him in his after lag...it works REALLY well...

Also, at very good %s, your smashes will combo out of dair...usmash out of dair (if fast enough) combos around 80%, which kills MK instantly. a Fox usmash kills MK starting around 65% before the hit...so watch for that.


now for some general strategy in the match:

Nair, Bair, and Dair are your main aerial choices here...imo, Fair is harder to land and lasts long enough so he can punish you for it, if it doesn't work. Nair is overall solid for an aerial game. Bair beats his aerials with proper spacing. and dair goes through everything from above...and combos into everything

be SURE to land Dairs behind MK's shield...every time...this is important. If MK is trying to utilt you out of dair, shine stall it until you can land it...that's a freebie hit.

Lasers are not useful for camping here...HOWEVER, using them to recharge your smashes is money...I love it.

If MK is comboing you up with uairs, start mashing dair, and it will win...

Basic things of being unpredictable apply. Yes, MK can punish you if he guesses you out.

WATCH for edgeguarding... MK can edgeguard you pretty well. Illusion is your best friend here...Usually, MK will commit to come after you, so an illusion back to stage is usually safe. DO NOT recover low, if you can help it.

Dont try to edge guard MK, except maybe trying for a gimp edgehog on a lazy MK. Sometimes, you can land a dair on him off the stage, but it's really never worth it. If He's on the ledge, you can punish him for a getup attack, ledge jump, or ledge hop with dair dsmash...which can kill pretty early near the edge of the stage. Howver, if he sees this coming, he can wait and hit you, so basically, be smart about it.

M2K and I played this match at FAST1, and he was amazed by how many times I could go through his stuff...and how dair comboed into everything.

Overall, the match is VERY winnable...especially against MKs who don't know Fox is so good...

I give it a 6-4 in Fox's favor.


EDIT almost forgot CP stages

FD is really good for you, as it's wide and he can't hide under platforms.
Smashville is also fairly good.

actually, a lot of the stage are pretty even for you....

 

[M@v]

Very nice advice fenrir.

 

[SmashGod17]

Hmm, I'd have to say this match-up is pretty even, as everyone has stated before, but I think it leans slightly in MK's favor.

MK's dominance in the air tends to murder a lot of characters, as I've seen, but Fox's D-Air does help him out in that situation.

And the fact that his D-Air can break through Mach Tornado is amazing. Not many moves can do that.

I suppose Blaster spamming isn't the best way to prevent MK's approach, but I think an Illusion>U-Tilt combo might be able to gimp it.

Recovery-wise, no debate is needed. MK's is truly superior. And edgeguarding is hazardous because of Shuttle Loop. Offstage, MK is ridiculously favored.

Attack speed is pretty close in comparison. Not many characters can counter MK's swift ground game, but Fox is one that can. Still, MK's neutral combo stops a lot of characters, so I think one should play cautiously on the ground and strike when there's an opening. Any strong attack Fox gets in will hit hard.

MK's grab game is also superior. His D-Throw has so much combo potential that it isn't even funny. It also chains against fast fallers, and Fox just happens to be one.

Basically, I'd say the odds are 55-45 in MK's favor. That D-Air of Fox has a lot of priority, and if used correctly, can lead to victory against MK because of his light weight. However, MK overall has superiority in most categories. If one plays with caution, Fox CAN win. Patience is definitely a requisite.

 

[M@v]

dair actually doesnt have a lot of priority at all =/. Nair and Fair do though. Best bet with tornado is to nair into the top of it.

 

[Zhamy]

MK's dominance in the air tends to murder a lot of characters, as I've seen, but Fox's D-Air does help him out in that situation.

Untrue; Dair does not help out in the air game - it's used to combo into his ground game.

And the fact that his D-Air can break through Mach Tornado is amazing. Not many moves can do that.

Tons of moves can break through Tornado, the hard part is setting them up.

[/quote]I suppose Blaster spamming isn't the best way to prevent MK's approach, but I think an Illusion>U-Tilt combo might be able to gimp it.[/quote]

Gimp an approach...? This makes no sense. How will Illusion ever combo into Utilt?

Attack speed is pretty close in comparison. Not many characters can counter MK's swift ground game, but Fox is one that can. Still, MK's neutral combo stops a lot of characters, so I think one should play cautiously on the ground and strike when there's an opening. Any strong attack Fox gets in will hit hard.

1) You should not be hit by neutral combo.
2) Obviously you should strike when there's an opening. (No, instead, you should dash intro a fully charged Fsmash.) The real question is how to set up that opening.
3) MK is about combos and gimping, not strong moves. You should mostly watch for Dsmash and Shuttle Loop in terms of strong moves.

MK's grab game is also superior. His D-Throw has so much combo potential that it isn't even funny. It also chains against fast fallers, and Fox just happens to be one.

Dthrow is not a chaingrab against anyone. It launches them into the air.

Basically, I'd say the odds are 55-45 in MK's favor. That D-Air of Fox has a lot of priority, and if used correctly, can lead to victory against MK because of his light weight. However, MK overall has superiority in most categories. If one plays with caution, Fox CAN win. Patience is definitely a requisite.

It's better than that. Fox is favored slightly because he doesn't need to approach, and many of your options are predictable by a good Fox once MK needs to go on the offensive. You're missing a higher level of play here, and some of your strategies make no sense. (Illusion->Utilt?)

 

[M@v]

good info guys, keep it coming. I just moved in to college today, so expect me on less often.(dont worry , this will be updated barely minimum once a week, I promise). Once i find the gaming/brawl club (i know for a fact, i saw flyers for a brawl tourney last time i visited here),
Ill be sure to ask them their opinions as well.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol is there anymore to say really? too bad i can't help too much with the MK info. my input might be biased cause the MK i fight isn't all that great. maybe next character.

 

[SmashGod17]

Untrue; Dair does not help out in the air game - it's used to combo into his ground game.



Tons of moves can break through Tornado, the hard part is setting them up.

I suppose Blaster spamming isn't the best way to prevent MK's approach, but I think an Illusion>U-Tilt combo might be able to gimp it.[/quote]

Gimp an approach...? This makes no sense. How will Illusion ever combo into Utilt?



1) You should not be hit by neutral combo.
2) Obviously you should strike when there's an opening. (No, instead, you should dash intro a fully charged Fsmash.) The real question is how to set up that opening.
3) MK is about combos and gimping, not strong moves. You should mostly watch for Dsmash and Shuttle Loop in terms of strong moves.



Dthrow is not a chaingrab against anyone. It launches them into the air.




It's better than that. Fox is favored slightly because he doesn't need to approach, and many of your options are predictable by a good Fox once MK needs to go on the offensive. You're missing a higher level of play here, and some of your strategies make no sense. (Illusion->Utilt?)[/QUOTE]

Illusion>U-Tilt works for me a lot of times. Sometimes it knocks the opponent towards you so you can land a U-Tilt.

 

[Zhamy]

If they DI well at all, it will not work. Maybe at a very specific percent for each character, but that's far too situational to justify the effort of including it as a possible advantage in the matchup.

 

[RPK]

dair actually doesnt have a lot of priority at all =/. Nair and Fair do though. Best bet with tornado is to nair into the top of it.

Just posting what I saw when seeing what can go through the tornado...At like...6 am...no sleep...xD Meh...Was still a nice post

 

[M@v]

if you look at it though, a lot of people usmashes, even u tilts slice right through it.

 

[Fenrir VII]

if you look at it though, a lot of people usmashes, even u tilts slice right through it.

Dair also straight up beats a LOT of moves... Whereas it's certainly not disjointed, it does have quite a bit of directed priority.

 

[Acex27]

Heres a list of moves that straight out beat the nado, as the meta mainers call it. Thought it might be useful for those who use secondaries on him as well.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161939

What I think we should also explore about metaknight is the shuttle loop. I play him for fun sumtimes and whenever i use it and hit it sends the opponent in some direction other than horizontal like i would want. It would be good to know what part of the move does what and how that can be countered.

P.S. Beware the Nair at higher percents as well.

BTW, how heavy is MK?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

MKs not that heavy at all. he dies from Usmash at like what 60-70%?

 

[§witch]

Yeah, crazy low.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

the only problem is the setup, but once Dair lands Usmash will follow and its bye bye god child lol.

 

[RPK]

Well from my stats, he dies at 82% from an upsmash. Same percent as Fox...

 

[-Mars-]

On Battlefield I got a Metaknight KO'ed from upsmash below 80%. I think the only way your gonna be able to land upsmash out of dair on most players is if you catch them with it in the air. Most good players can perfect shield the upsmash if you use dair on them on the ground.

 

[Zhamy]

On Battlefield I got a Metaknight KO'ed from upsmash below 80%. I think the only way your gonna be able to land upsmash out of dair on most players is if you catch them with it in the air.

Nope, at certain percents, an undecayed Dair will have enough hitstun to always link to Usmash.

 

[M@v]

the threads been stickyed! :D. Thank the mods guys.

We will end the MK discussion tonight if thats cool with everyone. I still have one more college class in about a half hour , and then homework to do. So I'll be on around 6ish eastern to close the discussion and then we will move on.

 

[Fenrir VII]

that's cool...i think I've pretty much said all I can say on the topic...so I'll leave it. : )

 

[Zhamy]

Eh. We're done. Neeext?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wonder whos up next. maybe i can help with the next one.

 

[Fenrir VII]

i wonder whos up next. maybe i can help with the next one.

I'm guessing Falco?

 

[§witch]

Falco actually isn't too bad a match-up for fox. He falls so fast chain spikes are annoying to hit.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah, other than spiking it can be weird trying to KO people with Falco.

 

[M@v]

I've decided that we should cover all the characters we will see most frequently in tournaments. So, we will start with one of the most played characters besides MK, SNAKE:

Snake is one of my favorite matchups, and I think fox has a fairly decent time with snake. Blaster shreds his nade spam, and throws off his nikita missle. ALWAYS let snake come to you. He will probably mortar slide to do it, so be ready. Also, if you shine his mortar shell, it will work like pika's thunder, itll go through you and turn against snake. Never take ftilt head on, you won't win. Evade it at all costs. Its pretty easy to see coming. Utilt, on the other hand, is not. Snakes Utilt causes fox to have nightmares at night. It can kill him at 100%, and its range and priority are maddening. it makes it near impossible to approach from above. Best way, if forced to approach, is to dodge and attack his back. Your utilt combo crushes snake. You can usually get 40% off of him.

 

[§witch]

He's fun to play off the edge that's for sure. His slow predictable recovery is too fun to gimp. Fox is really light, so his utilt is a *****.
EDIT:grab his up b from the edge and let him wiggle out, he just falls and dies.