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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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gantrain05

gantrain05

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well i have never fought a lucario with my fox either, i used my peach, and i gotta say, even with peach's approach options it was HARD to get close to this guy, his spacing game is rediculous, and he has true combos with his arials that can be very frustrating when caught in them, he has a jab > side B setup for his chaingrab, i'm not sure if fox can Utilt combo him, his Dair comes out in like 2 frames, same as peach's Nair, and peach can get out with Nair so beware of that.
 
Browny

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>_<

dair is 4 frames, which is still incredibly fast for an aerial as powerful as that. jab-side b is escapable but lucario can utilt/uthrow to side b to start the chain if you dont react instantly. but yeah due to fox's fast fall nature he is going to get hit by fair -> anything, even a dair for a very large range of %'s.

despite fox' killing ability kind of ruining the aura properties lucario annoying as hell camp/brick wall game, mixed with fox's limited approaches I can see why this would be in lucarios favour. i havent played many fox's at all but those i have I didnt feel like i had no options at any stage of the matches. maybe dissapointed when i get caught in landing lag on a platform and die at 90% or something lol
 
Samuelson

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Lucario's tilts, jab and aerials are amazing vs Fox. A dumb lucario will try to abuse his Fsmash and AS which is something you can't do in this matchup. Fox is one of the only characters that can easily punish Fsmash and Fox has a shine which prevents any kind of aura sphere spam. When i first learned this matchup i thought it was in Fox's favor but the more i play it the more i can clearly see that Lucario has the advantage.

Fox can kill Lucario at 94% with Usmash IIRC. Good luck gimping Lucario. If you're like any of the other character boards i can bet that somebody is going to say something along the lines of "Lucario has horrible recovery that is easy to gimp". Anybody with half a brain knows that is not true at all however.
 
gantrain05

gantrain05

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Samuelson said:
Lucario's tilts, jab and aerials are amazing vs Fox. A dumb lucario will try to abuse his Fsmash and AS which is something you can't do in this matchup. Fox is one of the only characters that can easily punish Fsmash and Fox has a shine which prevents any kind of aura sphere spam. When i first learned this matchup i thought it was in Fox's favor but the more i play it the more i can clearly see that Lucario has the advantage.

Fox can kill Lucario at 94% with Usmash IIRC. Good luck gimping Lucario. If you're like any of the other character boards i can bet that somebody is going to say something along the lines of "Lucario has horrible recovery that is easy to gimp". Anybody with half a brain knows that is not true at all however.
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his recovery still isn't "stellar" by any means, if he HAS to use his UpB to go for the edge he's going to get gimped, but if he's close enough to have options he can always land on the stage, and on a few occasions wall cling.
 
Lightning93

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May I ask if you have ever been shine spiked before? Fox's falling speed combined with this quick attack makes for a nasty gimp. Lucario's recovery can't hurt us whatsoever unlike DK and CF, and does not contain as much range as Pika's quick attack. We don't risk much trying to gimp Lucario I believe, and due to Fox's overall speed it shouldn't be too hard to pull off.
 
Browny

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dont even discuss gimping lucario as a viable strategy to win unless you are metaknight, you are focusing on the wrong aspects of the matchup.
 
JigglyZelda003

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but if Lucarios asleep we might as well try for the gimp right?:bee: anyway that shouldn't be a main focus like you said its more of just a quick chat about it.

so whos approaching in this match more? the few times i've fought lucario i find myself initiating movement since those lucarios have all been ledge campers. and whats the safest approaching way?
 
Zhamy

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dont even discuss gimping lucario as a viable strategy to win unless you are metaknight, you are focusing on the wrong aspects of the matchup.
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How is just as important as why. There's no reason not to dicuss gimping if it's a possibility.
 
KheldarVII

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I wouldn't shine gimp unless he's coming up vertical otherwise there's a chance I'll N-air intercept. Most of the time I'll be waiting on or beside the ledge.
 
Samuelson

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Lightning93 said:
May I ask if you have ever been shine spiked before? Fox's falling speed combined with this quick attack makes for a nasty gimp. Lucario's recovery can't hurt us whatsoever unlike DK and CF, and does not contain as much range as Pika's quick attack. We don't risk much trying to gimp Lucario I believe, and due to Fox's overall speed it shouldn't be too hard to pull off.
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Funny you should ask because there is a funny video of me getting shine spiked on youtube somewhere.

Gimping Lucario is more than possible BUT it is not something to rely on in almost any matchup.

this makes me LOL. This match is like 5 months old but just recently got put up on youtube

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=15AT60mADp0&feature=related
 
Lightning93

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First of all this guy's ^ sig scares me. I switched to Safari and it sill guessed it.

Samuelson said:
Gimping Lucario is more than possible BUT it is not something to rely on in almost any matchup.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=15AT60mADp0&feature=related
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That Fox was pretty good, but even though he did get a spike his off edge play was a bit sloppy. If you were playing someone like me or Monkey or other mentionable Foxes here we would have been able to get those kills much easier and not SD. Although I'm sure your much better now and would look out for more of those things.

Also I think the ability to gimp is a great factor contributing to your ability to kill. This is why DK can be a hard fight, because he can sustain a lot of damage before being smashed, and the ability to otherwise get a quicker kill by gimping is taken away by his up-b. This definitely helps in the fight against Lucario, because although it might be harder to do, gimping can fix the problem of Fox's lack of approach and therefore lack to build damage. Also the situation of not being able to finish Lucario even though he is at high percent, therefore also being very dangerous, can be taken away if you do gimp. Like I said it may not be easy to do, but I definitely helps.

The Marth matchup also sounds accurate, no argument with me.
 
gantrain05

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ugh, marth and lucario, i hate both of em, i just kinda wish fox had better midrange options, he seems to get shut down by characters that fight at that mid range.
 
Zhamy

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Interesting seeing as how when we tried to argue for this a few months ago we were basically laughed at.
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As I recall, it was everyone trying to get Gheb to shut up and leave?
 
Fenrir VII

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I got laughed at for saying Marth is 6-4 against Fox...
>.>
sigh smashboards...and I get called an optimist.

Lucario and Marth are very closely related, actually... they both have superior zoning games to Fox. And both have good aerials to stop him. Luc's Dair is really nice, yeah, but can be shield usmashed. just fyi.

Fox can gimp Lucario with a rising Dair without too much trouble or risk. Will it work every time? surely not... but every couple of matches, it's not THAT hard to pull off, and cut off Luc's options.... admittedly, it's something that Fox can do here, but can't be relied on a WHOLE lot...

edgehog is beautiful in this match, as Lucario's upB does no attack, and his upB landing lag is considerable (like Marth again), so you can pull up or roll up and dsmash or fsmash him back off the stage, or usmash kill him... That's my preferred way to edgeguard here...against both Luc and Marth.

Fox is a better killer than Lucario on stage. with proper play, Luc's % power increase isn't AS important against Fox...
Luc can gimp Fox pretty well, though. Fox REALLY has to mix it up here...

This is one of the disadvantageous Fox matches, but not by much, I would say. Again, I would take a 6-4 for Lucario.
 
-Mars-

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I agree, Lucario definitely has a 6-4 on Fox. His aura hitboxes have transcendal priority just like MK's sword slashes....but only the aura. If you're in range of his hurtbox, you can beat his attacks though.

He has to approach, when he gets to you run away and camp some more. Weave in and out and try not to fight up close too much. Bait and punish and when he gets to 105% kill him immediately....you don't want Lucario taking two stocks off of you because of his aura boost. You have a major speed advantage as well, so play a hit and run style.....basic Fox gameplay.
 
Lightning93

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Or FLAMEDASH!

But seriously this is basically what you do want to do in the Lucario match-up. Wait for approaches and then punish while avoiding aura blasts at the same time. I don't believe his approaches are TOO safe if you know how to counter them, but he can get some serious damage on you if you don't use your speed.

This is personally an annoying match up for me because I am mostly used to having my offense be my best defense, although my actual defense can be pretty solid. I just don't see Fox standing back, I mean I can, but it doesn't feel natural. I know this has nothing to do with matchup, but I'm wondering if anyone else feels the same way. Probably monkey.
 
Lightning93

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Yeah the F-smash was one of the ways the Lucario I played spaced me. It has such range, that Lucario doesn't have to care so much for the lag afterward or even the start up. A good Lucario will probably unleash his f-smash right as you are about to enter its range. That's why you have to stay unpredictable.

Lol sorry Iblis, I'm sure you feel the same way too.
 
Shintarru

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I go against a good lucario alot so here is what I uaually do...

I always shdl, building damage from a distance is too good. Fairs and bairs **** in this matchup. Get lucario in the air with u-tilt and depending of the DI fair or bair (A-canceled) upsmash at around 90% kills. Gimping Lucario is easy with shine spike.

But lucaio has range, and combos. Dont get hit by his fair. Its gonna lead to a lot. His dair gimps fox like it nothing.

This matchup is about 55-45 lucaio
 
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