Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Zhamy]

can lucarios Dair beat Usmash or do we trade?

The actual hitbox right below his feet? Nope. It either gets beat or clanks. If you somehow manage to hit his legs, it goes though.

 

[Timbers]

aerials don't clank.

Fox does stupid things to Lucario's floaty nature+landing frames. Blah.

Luc shouldn't/can't abuse fsmash zoning nearly as well here as Fox's speed allows him to get in close, making tipper zoning difficult and risky. Fsmash's big factor is being able to catch characters in landing frames too, due to it's lingering hitbox. A competent Fox can totally negate this staple fsmash trap with shinestalling. Very annoying.

Ftilt zoning is superior in this match for Lucario, I think. Fox can't really do anything about the ftilt, which is great for Lucario in this situation.

 

[Conviction]

aerials don't clank.

Fox does stupid things to Lucario's floaty nature+landing frames. Blah.

Luc shouldn't/can't abuse fsmash zoning nearly as well here as Fox's speed allows him to get in close, making tipper zoning difficult and risky. Ftilt zoning is superior in this match for Lucario, I think. Fox can't really do anything about the ftilt, which is great for Lucario in this situation.

Thanks for the input. Think you can get any of your Luc buddies to come here?

 

[Timbers]

You can make a thread in the Luc boards if you want. It was just by chance I came across this thread because I'm bored as hell lol.

 

[Conviction]

You can make a thread in the Luc boards if you want. It was just by chance I came across this thread because I'm bored as hell lol.

Lol matter of fact I just did.

 

[Zhamy]

aerials don't clank.

Oh yeah. What am I thinking of? Bleh, but yeah, he's right. I was thinking of something else, but I can't remember it now.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ok, I'm here, and good and ready!
What are we discussing, approaches?

EDIT: *waits about 1 hour & half * Wow, I think I just killed the discussion...

 

[Zhamy]

Fox boards is slow, so you'll have to forgive us.

What are Lucario's effective zoning options in this matchup?

 

[Conviction]

Fox boards is slow, so you'll have to forgive us.

What are Lucario's effective zoning options in this matchup?

Yea you'll have to excuse us. Some days we are active. Some days we are not. What Lucario's zoning that makes it superior?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

his Ftilt is annoying and his Fsmash still is to an extent just less so.

 

[Greenpoe]

Fox outcamps Lucario pretty easily. Lucario vs. Lasers-> Lucario is forced to approach. Also, Lucario dies more easily off the top than the sides, so u-smash is your savior.

 

[Melomaniacal]

All I'd say is watch out for the force palm chain grab, and dair... especially dair.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

but doesn't Lucarios Utilt and Usmash stop Dair? so that removes Dair>Usmash also if we can't beat his Dair there goes running under landing lucario Usmash. and then his Ftilt.

but yes lasers are >Lucario. too abd we can't kill with them.

 

[tedward2000]

Lasers are just adding aura power to lucario. If your just going for those final %'s to make Upsmash kill, then they're fine.

Spam just to spam will only make lucario stronger.

Majority of lucario's moves are for the defensive, quote massive lingering hitboxes. As long as Lucario keeps at a steady pace, he's fine. Break his pace and gain the flow for a long as possible, cause after that all lucairo has to do is push you back to get going again.

Lucario shouldn't have to use his recovery, unless he's under the stage. His jump and second jump take care of that. Wall cling on ledges (yes he can cling ledges) and walls also help. ES is a last resort.

Oh and, he has crappy horizontal grab range, but great vertical grab range. This goes for grab and Force Palm grab (which is double the range as grab). Meaning, he can "pluck" you out of the air...with his ears.

Also take this to heart.
"A lucario over %130 needs to die, and fast."
-t2

 

[Chileno4Live]

Well about the spamming thingy. You can stay there as long as you want to increase your aura power, but you'll also get killed faster. You keep getting damage while Fox remains unharmed and in the end you'll still need to approach, which greatly helps any Fox since Fox sucks so much at approaching. Lucario is easy to shine Spike, and when he's under the stage just hang on the ledge and he's gone for since it does no damage at all. It also won't push you from the ledge, i love to do that against Lucario's ^_^

Also, i think it would be hard for any Lucario to hit a Fsmash on a moving Fox. I mean Fox is a pretty fast character and he won't sit still for any moment unless he's spamminh lasers. Lucario's Dair is a pain in the *** though. It pushes me so hard away that he can make his aura ball again.

 

[Timbers]

Lasers are there to cover up the fact that Fox's approach options suck, and so he's forced to camp pretty much everyone. I don't know where this idea comes from that taking unwanted damage is a good thing, especially Fox's lasers, as they replenish all of his other potential killers.

Fox is one of the few characters that can force Luc to use his uB, despite Fox having a somewhat mediocre offstage game. Dsmash and bair have sick horizontal knockback, which can force the uB back to stage. It's definitely worth attempting the shine on him during this time, as yeah, uB does no damage. Alternatively you can just force him to recover onstage, hop up and usmash him or dsmash/bair him back out, depending on the situation. Don't mistake it for a bad recovery, because it's not. Luc can **** with your recovery as much, or more than, you can.

And yes usmash kills Luc at very low percents, but landing that usmash is going to prove difficult. A patient Luc is a smart Luc, and he won't go blindly in dairing your shield or some ****. You'll be dealing with a lot of (retreating) fairs, ftilts, bairs, occasional AS and fsmash, all of which is going to discourage a grounded or sh attempt. The only time Fox will really be in control of this match is when Luc is returning to stage. Dair is not an end-all move where Fox gets shutdown on pressure. If Luc dairs your anticipated running usmash, go for an fair or something. Fox has the speed to get around Luc's walls, but his moveset options are fairly limited if Luc isn't already vulnerable.

 

[Conviction]

I need a match with a Lucario just to get a feel on this match. Any Lucarios up to play?

 

[Lightning93]

Although it's true Fox's offstage game composes of no spikes, he has many options that enable him to get 0% gimps. This is all the result of drilling, shine spike, and proper edge hogging. For an experienced Fox gimping is one of Fox's greatest and easiest strengths, at least for me. This still doesn't mean a character like Lucario CAN'T avoid it, but our offstage game is not somewhat mediocre I believe. We steal double jumps, interrupt recoveries, and due to our fast falling nature, come back down for more.

 

[Timbers]

It's mediocre in comparison to the rest of the cast.

 

[-Mars-]

It's mediocre in comparison to the rest of the cast.

Not many characters can stall in the air at will and not many characters have three different recovery moves.

 

[Timbers]

You guys realize I'm talking about offstage game when Fox is on the offense, correct?

His midair to fair and firefox recoveries are going to do him little good when the two of them are being the aggressors on the ledge.

 

[-Mars-]

You guys realize I'm talking about offstage game when Fox is on the offense, correct?

His midair to fair and firefox recoveries are going to do him little good when the two of them are being the aggressors on the ledge.

I'm very much aware of that.

 

[Timbers]

So then, what? =|

I'm not exactly sure what you guys are trying to defend here. It's an average offstage game.

 

[-Mars-]

So then, what? =|

I'm not exactly sure what you guys are trying to defend here. It's an average offstage game.

You said mediocre.

Fox can go all over the place offstage and with all the assets in his moveset available to him....he can make it back. If he misses the edgeguard, he's not like some of these other characters that get edge hogged because they missed on a risk they took.

You have to worry about nair, dair to shine, bair for the kill.

If you use your second jump, Fox can hit you with a rising fair.

If your anywhere below the stage.... a Fox player should be ensuring your death. I live offstage with Fox.

His bair and dsmash also set up for extremely easy edgeguards....I would like to know just why you feel he has an average offstage game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

probably cause its not like MK? usually when a characters recovery is better than average you hear "unless your MK X character won't be gimped"

 

[Conviction]

probably cause its not like MK? usually when a characters recovery is better than average you hear "unless your MK X character won't be gimped"

Lol where are you getting at?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

dont even discuss gimping lucario as a viable strategy to win unless you are metaknight, you are focusing on the wrong aspects of the matchup.

probably cause its not like MK? usually when a characters recovery is better than average you hear "unless your MK X character won't be gimped"

Lol where are you getting at?

^this^.

sure Fox doesn't fly and his offstage game isn't OMG amazing, but i still think sometimes its underestimated. and since MK is one of the best at offstage gimps........ we should just go for the vert kill anyway since it takes him down faster, but gimping is not obsolete or mediocre at all to me...... it gets the job done.

 

[Timbers]

I would like to know just why you feel he has an average offstage game.

Because it's fairly one dimensional. All of his aerials have long durations, which when coupled with his fast fall speed, make it so that the only time he can actually use his aerials offstage is when he's above stage level or he's executing them through his midair. Pretty much in order to use his offstage game, you have to expend your midair in every situation that doesn't call for a shine. The shine has pretty poor range on it. It should really never connect unless you're against a character with a low priority, telegraphed recovery. Fox also can't be "all over" when offstage. His uB is very easy to gimp. A fox without his midair and no sideB onstage (assuming your opponent has a change to hug the ledge with invincibility frames) you're then having to resort to his slow, low priority uB, where anything can wreck him.

Compare this with a character like Lucario's offstage game, which I also think is average in strength. He's a floaty character, with stalling properties, low duration moves, gimpable projectile, and a great midair in which to use this all with. Walkoff aurasphere can harass any character that needs to make that horizontal recovery to the lip, and smaller auraspheres can add the needed hitstun to keep them away from the ledge. Fair is very low duration, so it can be used virtually anywhere any not risk being left open. Has gimp properties, albeit not entirely useful on most characters. Dair stalls completely, while having insane range on it. Bair lingers, and while it does have considerable lag on it, Luc's very floaty which allows him to use it in most positions which risking killing himself (due to a fast fallspeed like Fox) Now while it does have it's good points, I still consider it mediocre. Like Fox's uB, Luc's is also risky in use, especially if you go too far beneath stage level without a midair (however Luc can achieve much more without expending that midair than Fox can) No spikes in his game and the only move he has with a decent horizontal knockback offstage is the fair, which doesn't have enough knockback to really become lethal in most situations.

You have to remember we're comparing edgegames to characters that are floaty and can stall without the use of a third party move that leaves them helpless during it's use. Brawl is floaty. We deal with penguins that have amazing range on their recoveries, while still being able to go out with high priority aerials and take you all the way to the blastzone, or boosters that let you hover at the ledge for several seconds while being able to defend it with autospacing bairs and high priority projectile games.

^this^.

sure Fox doesn't fly and his offstage game isn't OMG amazing, but i still think sometimes its underestimated. and since MK is one of the best at offstage gimps........ we should just go for the vert kill anyway since it takes him down faster, but gimping is not obsolete or mediocre at all to me...... it gets the job done.

Average things can get the job done. If it's not great its average. If it's not average it's poor. I'm not denying that Fox can't harass Luc's recovery, as previously stated in this thread, but Luc's recovery isn't great to begin with.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree with the majority of your post, but you said mediocre which is the only reason I even argued. Mediocre does not equal average. Fox can play offstage as long as he's not up against one of the characters with the God-like recovery.

 

[Timbers]

I agree with the majority of your post, but you said mediocre which is the only reason I even argued. Mediocre does not equal average. Fox can play offstage as long as he's not up against one of the characters with the God-like recovery.

'mediocre' and 'average' are rather synonymous, and reflected my feelings on Fox's offstage game regarding Lucario pretty well, but there's no point in arguing that here

 

[Zhamy]

Now we're just arguing semantics.

Thanks to the Lucario boards for coming over, though, since it really helps with analysis.

Is there anything else you guys feel we should cover?

 

[fox219]

f*** that turtle...

do you mean squirtle or GaW's b-air?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

a quick stage coverage should rap it up i think right?

 

[Browny]

Ganondorf. He might "Hit like a bus full of fat people", but he suffers in almost every other aspect. Hes slow, low priority, easily gimpable recovery, no projectile, and slow attack speed. One shine spike from fox sends ganon to his doom. One dair and hes eating uptilt combos.

Im not so sure about that. Dtilt, uair, fair and bair have surprisingly large range and since priority is determined by range, unless you are marth, ike etc you arent going to beat those attacks unless yours is spaced perfectly/ganons spaced horribly.

 

[-Mars-]

Im not so sure about that. Dtilt, uair, fair and bair have surprisingly large range and since priority is determined by range, unless you are marth, ike etc you arent going to beat those attacks unless yours is spaced perfectly/ganons spaced horribly.

Since we have like 6 moves that outspeed everything in his entire moveset, it matters very little unless he spaces like a god.

 

[Zhamy]

Okay, good stages/bad stages for Fox/Lucario?

I'm going to throw in the obvious ban Lylat, CP Corneria.

Unless the Lucario users think that Corneria is not that good of a CP?

 

[Conviction]

Since we have like 6 moves that outspeed everything in his entire moveset, it matters very little unless he spaces like a god.

This .^
And we are finished we ganon end of story, you are here for the lucario match-up are you not?
So a stage anlysis would work. I think stages that aren't crampped will help Fox. Coneria is good, and so is FD. Stay away from battlefield and Smashville.
*thinks* This seems to be the case for most of Fox's match-ups when he is playing people with good spacing moves besides ZZS, but that's a different match-up.

 

[M@v]

Lucario does good on luigis mansion too though.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah, LM, aka cave of life, is not a fun place to fight Lucario

 

[Timbers]

I like Fox on Mansion and Battlefield.