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Fox Match-Up General Discussion
- Thread starter M@v
- Start date
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JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
looks like this is coming to an end nicely, so while the last few things rap up, um whos next?
gantrain05
Smash Master
i took a very good lucario to corneria last night at my local tourney, i don't know if any of u know dark.disciple but he's a crazy good lucario, i had him beat and i get hit by a rapid fire machine gun ******* ship, did 60% or so damage on me and put me right in front of lucario just to kill me with an Uthrow on the top of the wing..... other than that unfortunate incident my fox was really controlling the flow of the matchup.
Timbers
check me out
Lucario is lolbad on corneria. Expect it to be the prime stage banned against Fox if it's CP in your scene.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so whats good about halberd to take lucario there?
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Upsmash =D
Yeah I am curious as well. Like wouldn't one of Lucario's god mode forward smash crush Fox on Halberd's close sides?
Yeah I am curious as well. Like wouldn't one of Lucario's god mode forward smash crush Fox on Halberd's close sides?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
you mena his godmode anything. god mode Fthrow is like scary..... *shudders*
not to mention there is a big platform sitting in the middle. and he got a few more recovery options.
we holding onto the edge and he goes under us through the middle of the stage.
not to mention there is a big platform sitting in the middle. and he got a few more recovery options.
we holding onto the edge and he goes under us through the middle of the stage.
Conviction
Human Nature
The ending lag of the recovery for lucario isn't that great right? So if he tries that he gets punish. Halberd is kinda double edged close sides and low cellings. Best player wins I guess.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Low ceiling is bad for lucario on Halberd, but Corneria is far worst for most lucarios (wonky angles that mess with AS at times, really low ceiling, and low percent kill zone in the back = bad for lucario.
Conviction
Human Nature
The landing lag on Lucario's recovery is kinda long right.
§witch
Smash Lord
That is hardly pertinent. But it lags a fair amount.
Conviction
Human Nature
Speed> fair amount of lag= Usmash?
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lol, of course, out with it!
Or if he's at lower percentages, expect some combos. It's really situational, but whatever you do, make sure you punish.
Or if he's at lower percentages, expect some combos. It's really situational, but whatever you do, make sure you punish.
Fairly large stage that allows for camping and hit and run tactics. Prevents Lucario from zoning you as effectively. About as large as FD except usmash is going to kill far earlier which is the best way to kill Lucario(vertically). Fox is going to die early in every matchup, I assume all of you have become accustomed to dealing with that by now. Lucario doesn't have an excellent vertical KO move like Fox does, so the low ceiling doesn't effect you as much. Just DI on the sides properly and you shouldn't die too early.
I guess the platform is kinda favoring Lucario, but Fox has an effective platform-pressure game as well.
One thing that does help his recovery is the numerous places where he can wall cling with his ES....but it's not that helpful.
Pretty much it, pick a large stage with a low ceiling.......Halberd is your best option.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
1: Yeah, D. Disciple is a good Lucario (knows his jab cancels well)
2: You know now to SDI the cannon right?
3: Halberd vs. Fox is not imo as bad as Corneria, but Fox certainly has advantages that outweigh ours on that stage.
Also, I know on paper the reflector is supposed to be a good anti AS, but I've had to show some foxes the hard way that due to the properties of the projectile, it isn't as easy to successfully reflect in practice (and I don't mean fox scrubs, decent foxes here) than in theory. I'm not going to make this a major discussion part, as theoretically, this is covered, but I'm here to say that fox still needs to be occasionally wary of AS, as even though it can be reflected (and even shield has occasional danger), it is slow enough travelling for the lucario to put up shield, or not be in its path in the first place (usually approaching in the air). I bet aerial shine is suited better for this and prolly shield, as it can be released faster, but I have to warn that even so, know that AS is as much a pressure tool to help "cover" an approach as it is a damager/camping/killing tool. I only say this because I saw a lack of worry with AS, and while fox certainly can deal with AS better than others, there is danger playing with good AS tactics.
Also, usmash, and perhaps utilt will be good defense options/punishers for fox, and that nair will be useful, as lucario's aerials come fast, but I think fox's nair is faster (beat him to the punch, otherwise lucarios aerial game will hurt). Offstage, dair stuff and nair I would consider useful, the dsmash edgeguarding, not so much. I would consider solid 60:40 Lucario's favor, on character matchup, the videos I've analyzed, and my own personal experience.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
hey... bringing back up thew zelda discussion. I'll give you a few tips against her you might want to put in:
- Farore's wind has a lot of punishable landing lag if she has to appear above the stage, which she will if you CP stages with permiable floors.
- Zelda's Usmash is amazing against fox's aerials, but it's quite vulnerable from the ground. A running Usmash should meet her any time she uses this and you are grounded.
- Zelda is pretty vulnerable from below. get her in the air and try to take advantage of her. She's got a nice, long airdodge, and farore's wind, so she's hard to punish when she's high up, but when she's in the air right above the ground and you are below her, you should hit her about 75% of the time as long as you know whether to attack her before or after she lands (which will vary by situation.)
- In the air, zelda has a blindspot at every diagonal.
Conviction
Human Nature
Useful but the discussion is on lucario.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
at least he threw them out there lol. better to have them now anyway, that way when M@v puts in the Lucario summary he can add that in too
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
okay fine. I'll take them back if you'd like. I wasn't aware matchups stopped mattering once they were posted.
Conviction
Human Nature
Not that I'm just saying maybe you should had PM'd that to M@v.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
no, they do Sonic don't take back useful info XD
and M@v may not get it for a while anyway, plus its already here for him to cut and paste
and M@v may not get it for a while anyway, plus its already here for him to cut and paste
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Yeah I agree with ph1 on the AS thing. It's not really used as offensive but more for cover, when you have to deal with two spheres coming at you and Lucario's aerial approach it can be a bit overwhelming at times.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
yeah that trap is not fun, when i see that i run like a chicken with my head cut off.
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
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May i ask what ''AS'' is? I've heard that term sometimes when i read your posts. Please help?
Chileno4Live
Smash Ace
- Joined
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- 661
- Location
- Almere, The Netherlands
- NNID
- Xyronith
- 3DS FC
- 0731-5336-4808
Aren't Lucario's Aerials outclassing Fox's? I mean his Dair, Fair and Bair looks really strong. Not sure about the Priority, does Luca's Aerials have more Priority than for example Fair and Bair and Nair?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
take Lucario to the cave of life? LOL no thanks.
idk about norfair since Lucarios airgame is more than good enough to beat us down possibly and his recovery gets more options due to multiple ledges.
yes and no. his aura has transcendant priority, hence why his Ftilt and such are good at keeping us away, but his actual bodies priority isn't as high.
I usually cp RC or halbred. RC because his up b leaves landing lag and upsmash works wonders at that stage. Fox is better at manuvering at that stage than lucario. Halbred because if you edge pressure him he will have to come through the middle and there will be landing lag. Then punish
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
Wouldn't the closed in sides just complement Lucario's Forward Smash?
Timbers
check me out
Stages without translucent ledges means that Lucario has to waste a good deal of his recovery length to curve ES to get onstage if you're hugging. He can't just shoot it straight into the stage and go through the ledge like other characters, as it acts like a ceiling for him. Stages like Halberd or Delfino allow him to go straight through the stage (and the ledge, and you) while still saving some length on his ES, which can be used to curve into the stage for either a lagless landing or one that reduces the lag considerably.
So no. Find better reasons. If you want landing lag, go for like..Brinstar, or something.
Stages without flat platforms tend to screw Luc a lot, from what I've found. Halberd's little dip in the middle is annoying to deal with. We might have a few perks here but only looking at the killmoves in these matchups is a bad idea. I agree that Halberd is probably a Fox dominant stage but determining your CPs on just the ceiling height of a stage is pretty silly, or the horizontal blastzones in Lucario's situation.
Well yeah but untill the stage stops moving I guess.
Galanoth7395
Smash Apprentice
Is it just me, or has M@v been putting off on the guide? I mean, it seems as if he's taking longer to finalize a discussion, and after a discussion, he ALWAYS puts "Summary later". I'm not criticizing him or anything, just saying...
P.S. Did you know that if you hold Ctrl and press a key - like, if you press Ctrl and I simultaneously you can italicize a word? So you can quickly do stuff like that in Quick Reply? Just discovered that.
P.S. Did you know that if you hold Ctrl and press a key - like, if you press Ctrl and I simultaneously you can italicize a word? So you can quickly do stuff like that in Quick Reply? Just discovered that.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
its possible M@vs just uber busy and keeps saying
"i'll get to it, i'll get to it, i'll get to it....."
thats our M@v
but anyway since nobodys posted for a while i assume thats all were going to do on lucario right?
any suggestions for who should be FLAMDASHED next?
"i'll get to it, i'll get to it, i'll get to it....."
thats our M@v
but anyway since nobodys posted for a while i assume thats all were going to do on lucario right?
any suggestions for who should be FLAMDASHED next?
Yanoss1313
Smash Journeyman
we done lucas or ness yet?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
no, we haven't done the mother kids yet. M@v wru so we can move to someone else. is there any last words on Lucario though?
Conviction
Human Nature
Just do Bowser Mother Kids next.
M@v
Subarashii!
Lightning93
Smash Champion
That still doesn't solve our problem, although I know it's not your fault M@V. If it gets done it gets done.
I suggest either Mother Kid, both are annoying for Fox, since taking them to the air is a bit risky.
I suggest either Mother Kid, both are annoying for Fox, since taking them to the air is a bit risky.
Conviction
Human Nature
Do lucas first. Then Ness. New people come first.
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