Toronto Joe
Smash Master
its never a good idea to go really offensive with fox
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Sorry, Fox players don't just run into other characters asking to get damaged. I'm imagining these scenarios, and I'm wondering where they're coming from. If Jiggly crouches, it's just as likely she'd have to approach Fox, perhaps more likely because Jiggly's doing nothing and could get called for stalling. Furthermore, Fox doesn't approach like that. Ever. "HEY JIGGLYPUFF THROW ME."If you crouch he can't lazer camp you and will have to approach with a physical attack. At this point jigglypuff should spot dodge or sheild from the crouch and counter with a throw into a WoP. If fox falls behind your sheild after the attack like after using a late dash attack or an aireal, pivot grabs and U-tilts (into utilt>u-air>uair>rest) is a good choice.
Bair juggling would probably be more efficient.Recovery is fairly easy to gimp because of his modarate recovery ability. N-airs just push him away... far away. The way he and wolf take hitstun and falls are very similar, so if you n-air fox, he bounces slightly into the air with an arc of hitstun, and falls faster than he can recover from it. In other words, he will usualy fall lower after a n-air than most characters.
WTF? Jigglypuff's crouch is incredibly low, and if you're sitting there holding crouch, what's to stop Fox from recovering above her, or onto the ledge? And what does it mean when you say if Fox's Illusion "fails?" I've never had it "fail."Fox usualy uses his side B to recover from the side. When you predict he will do so, hold crouch until he does. If hye overlaps you, press B, and rest will connect with god timing. It's easier if fox's side B fails (rare) and he falls helplessly to the ground for a smash attack rest, or even a late sing.
Too late; sorry. Really, I can't see any of the stuff you posted working in a real match, except maybe Nair, but why use that when Bair does all that work for you, but better?I can't call this at all, so don't skin me and cookme until im golden brown over a fire pit yet...
No, when they go for the ledge to recovery. That's what I mean by it. Predictable in it's use, but the timing is a bit strict for Link to Dair so Fox illusions into it.I do see a lot of idiots use Fox's Illusion on the stage when the opponent was standing there waiting for it. I don't think that should be taken into account on matchup discussions if that's where you mean it's predictable.
except Link players are masters of DI =PLink....
Hm....
*goes to Link Boards*
Well....here I go.
Straight to the point...
6:4 Fox's favor
Why?
Description:
Fox and Link are almost even, they both have reliable mobility and a decent projectile game, Fox's speed is thrown off by Link's range and knockback power. But the primary reason Link fails here is the reason he fails just about anywhere, bad recovery, plus the fact that he, like Ike, can be shine gimped from 0%.
Link's shield, when ducking can block the lasers, but proper short hopped lasers can zap him in the face, quite literally. So crouch camping isn't all that effective, but Link has the advantage of multiple projectiles, and although Fox can just reflect them, a fluid Link would make it hard to predict when to reflect. Both have a pretty deadly air game, and Link's down air can knock Fox out of an illusion, but Fox's down air combos, and does really well on a fellow fast faller such as Link. Link's neutral air can throw Fox off alot of his moves, and bomb spamming hurts his recoveries--well, it doesn't hurt them, but taking strong hits while trying to recover is never good. Link is also capable of gimping Fox as well, boomerang gimping can put his illusion to shame, and a down tilt can spike. However these are challenging to get right, and are highly situational, as Fox as shine stalling and the infamous foxcopter to help lure these things out. Fox's primary advantage is the speed, Link can space much better than Fox can,--
(I believe the Z-air needs no introduction)
--but if Fox can manage to get close, he can do some sick things to Link.
Link dies from a fresh up smash with no DI at exactly 100%, this is taking into consideration that Fox hasn't already shine gimped him yet. Plus even without a shine gimp, Link is an easy edge guard/hog.
That's about as in depth as I can get.
I'm sure someone else can elaborate further.
Not against Link. Shine, Nair/Bair lead to ridiculous edgehogs/gimps. I find myself using Dsmash much more than Usmash in this matchup.Since fox usually kills with upsmash,
you can't Dsmash kill link, he just DI's downwards and tether grabs the edge right as he passes it by, trust me i have the same problem when fighting link with olimar, you don't want to send link low cuz a really good link (which we are talking about, only the highest level of play) will almost always tether grab before he gets knocked way offstage.Not against Link. Shine, Nair/Bair lead to ridiculous edgehogs/gimps. I find myself using Dsmash much more than Usmash in this matchup.
appreantly he can and go up to what seems the 300% rangesi don't think its possible for him to quickly tether from getting Dsmashed to close to the edge can he?
Yeah, the tether grab is annoying, but then Link is effectively offstage. He won't die straight away, but I find edgeguarding to be the easy part of this matchup.you can't Dsmash kill link, he just DI's downwards and tether grabs the edge right as he passes it by, trust me i have the same problem when fighting link with olimar, you don't want to send link low cuz a really good link (which we are talking about, only the highest level of play) will almost always tether grab before he gets knocked way offstage.
As long as you DI is a downward diagonal direction and mash the Z button fast enough you can do this.i don't think its possible for him to quickly tether from getting Dsmashed to close to the edge can he?
Not true.Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively.
Link doesn't need to be wasting his Z-airs when he's hanging on the ledge, since Fox's firefox has an enormous startup lag, and it's easy to edgehog this.Not true.
Fox has more recovery options, plus shine stalling.
Link can only Z-air edgehog 3 times before he falls. By then, Fox has the proper distance needed to get back on stage safely without even touching the ledge.
Foxcopter and shine stall says hi.Link doesn't need to be wasting his Z-airs when he's hanging on the ledge, since Fox's firefox has an enormous startup lag, and it's easy to edgehog this.
Seriously I've played quite a few fox players and I really don't think that this is more than 60:40 in fox's favour. I think it's 55:45. Sure fox can just shine link's projectiles and the shine gimps link really easily but as a link player you would usually aknowledge this and be very quick to recover not letting fox gimp you in time. THis isn't too hard to do if you use tether recovery as a link player. + Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively. At low damages link can build up a lot of damage on fox by up tilts and in close combat it is basically an even match up. Link slightly slower and stronger, fox quicker and weaker :/
This should be interesting.Seriously I've played quite a few fox players and I really don't think that this is more than 60:40 in fox's favour. I think it's 55:45.
Right, but has anyone said this is the main reason Fox wins in this matchup? No. It's because Fox wins at long range and close range, meaning Link has a very limited window where he can control midrange. That, combined with his poor recovery is the main reason Fox does so well. Also, why would a Fox player bother shining Link when Dair, Nair, and Bair do the job much better?Sure fox can just shine link's projectiles and the shine gimps link really easily but as a link player you would usually aknowledge this and be very quick to recover not letting fox gimp you in time.
Whoever you're playing with is doing it wrong, or you don't have a good grasp of Fox's recovery options. You will rarely see Firefox. Especially against Link.THis isn't too hard to do if you use tether recovery as a link player. + Link can zair edgeguard fox's fire fox pretty effectively.
Link is slower, Fox is quicker and stronger. Against semi-heavies like Link, Fox has a ridiculous amount of guaranteed combos and DI/Tech chases up to at least 90%. Granted, some of them are 2hits, but that's still more than Link can do at close range. Even trading hits, Fox will most likely come out ahead, since each of his hits will lead into something else, that he can use to 1) reset his spacing 2) bait and punish. Link can't zone effectively enough to prevent Fox from staying at long range or coming in at close range, although they're not easy. But to say that Link is going to win at close range battles is almost ludicrous. There's almost nothing in Link's arsenal that's feasibly going to consistently outdamage Fox's options.At low damages link can build up a lot of damage on fox by up tilts and in close combat it is basically an even match up. Link slightly slower and stronger, fox quicker and weaker :/
ThisOne, how the hell are we supposed to know that you moved to the AiB link boards?
Also this.Two, why should we give a **** if you moved to the AiB link boards? No offense.
I disagree, shorter stages would work better. Fox is maneuverable as it is, and it would hinder Link even more so, because he has little space of control.Large stage = win.
That is all.
This, in my opinion, is a large stage.Halberd,