Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Uzima (Uzi)]

You'll probably be shining before Jiggly's hitbox reaches you.

so your saying that we would preemptively shine jiggly before she would rest, but if that's so they we would have to know every single time that jiggs would rest, since if we do shine and she does rest at the same time she would hit first.

 

[Orrax]

Don't forget that shine is a DP, so even if rest and shine start at the same time, shine will win.

 

[Zhamy]

so your saying that we would preemptively shine jiggly before she would rest, but if that's so they we would have to know every single time that jiggs would rest, since if we do shine and she does rest at the same time she would hit first.

She comes toward you, your hitboxes are about to touch. Shine has invincibility during the first few frames.

So yeah.

Don't forget that shine is a DP, so even if rest and shine start at the same time, shine will win.

This. Invincibility frames rock your socks.

 

[_clinton]

At least JP can sing...lets see Fox do that!

In all fairness...I think JP can smack you with Rest in between Dair to some follow up...because of that whole 1 frame start up thing

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Don't forget that shine is a DP, so even if rest and shine start at the same time, shine will win.

wow, im an idiot, i was just discussing that a while ago and forgot
*face palms*

then ya shine wins

 

[JigglyZelda003]

idk i don't think its possible to rest between Dairs hits.

 

[Zhamy]

idk i don't think its possible to rest between Dairs hits.

Dair has enough hitstun/hitlag to carry the entire move through. You might be able to rest the followup, but don't count on it.

 

[Toronto Joe]

isnt it possible to just smash di dair?

 

[Zhamy]

isnt it possible to just smash di dair?

You'd have to be able to do that ridiculously well. Think M2K x 10 or something.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah trying to DI Foxs Dair is like trying to DI Zelda Usmash, especially if your a fatty? it ain't happening that often.

but lets talk more about stages. lets consider corneria banned, so where else will Fox want to fight JP?
i think JP wins in stage picking department as a whole though.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

yeah trying to DI Foxs Dair is like trying to DI Zelda Usmash,
but lets talk more about stages. lets consider corneria banned, so where else will Fox want to fight JP?

i just got an idea for a possible jiggy counter pick stage.
how bout luigis mansion. (unless thats banned and i dont know about it for some reason)
just fight inside of the stage on the first floor.
you got up-smash kills in the center(cept for the super high cealing could pose a problem) and the multi floors let you ground fight even it jiggly is in the air.
and the pillars let your refresh your up-smash.

just a thought.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hmmm...

Fox is one of Jigglypuff's bad matchups, because Fox has an abundance of vertical KO power. Jigglypuff does not like fighting people with an abundance of vertical KO power.

Lasers are somewhat trivial due to Jigg's air speed. The heart of the matchup is that Fox's dair cuts off most of Jigg's approaches and links to lots of pain and suffering. You are unlikely to land a uair on a good Jigglypuff, but one of you kid's fancy-pants rising fairs will do the job surprisingly often--Jigglypuff is just not used to fighting anyone that can out-prioritize her from a diagonal.

Jigglypuff's ground game consists almost entirely of grabs, which do great damage and provide Jiggs with much needed positional control against Fox. Fox obviously needs to stay as close to the middle of the stage as possible when fighting Jiggs, as if he was Olimar.

Finally, Jigglypuff is going to ban Corneria and CP Norfair or Brinstar against Fox. Fox will CP Halberd. This is not a discussion at all, it's just what is going to happen.

EDIT: If you really want a number, it's 55:45 Fox, possibly 60:40.

 

[Exceladon City]

Halberd for Fox and Rainbow Cruise for Jiggz which isn't exactly a smart move with both characters moving towards the ceiling because that just makes Fox's Usmash kills easier.

 

[Zhamy]

Jigglypuff:

There a few things Fox needs to abuse in this matchup - Jiggly can't shieldgrab aerials if she's in the air, Fox's ground game is much better than Jiggly's, and Fox KOs vertically like a beast.

Dair is quite useful. Why? If Jigglypuff is floating toward you, she can't exactly shield grab you. This isn't just about Dair, though. You can abuse many formerly unsafe defenses/approaches as long as Jiggly is floating and flying. Don't abuse them, since air dodging is always a threat, but don't be afraid of them either. Do not, however, get hit by Bair, since you'll get juggled by it for a quick 30-50% (more if your DI sucks).

Also, your ground game beats out Jiggly's hands down. You can outspace, outrange (mostly) and simply outplay her on the ground, and the only real threat is running into her massive grab range. We've already covered Rest above - if you see it coming, use Shine to abuse those invincibility frames.

In the air, abuse Fair and Dair, but try to keep them coming from diagonals - it makes it more difficult for Jiggly to respond. Her air speed will throw you for a loop, though, so if you can avoid it, don't go to the air. Nair isn't as useful, since Jiggly will often outprioritize it, and Bair is probably best used for the kill.

Lasers: Still use them; don't expect them to be too useful, but when Jiggly dies at somewhere around 87% from Usmash, a percent or two can't hurt.

Jiggly bans Corneria, Fox bans Lylat (At least, I would.)
Fox should CP Halberd, Luigi's, maybe Rainbow Cruise (personal preference).

60:40 Fox. (Pretty close to 55:45, though.)

 

[SnowballBob33]

You don't have to worry about roll out. Quickly run/illusion to the edge, or jump and shine.

If they do b-throw, shine turn around and don't use your jump. if they are below you, you could rising fair and be way above them and should be able to hit ground safe. Other than that you should be fine.

Shield grabbing will be hard.

I'm not sure of how jiggz vertical kill power is, but you may want to go halberd or norfair.

Jiggz jumps a lot so you may want to just usmash unexpectedly for damage. I'm thinking you could play like how you would peach and just sh fair the whole match.

Does jiggz have anything to get out of dthrow to fair? What are jiggz OoS options?
55-45 or 60-40 fox

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

60:40 Fox. (Pretty close to 55:45, though.)

EDIT: If you really want a number, it's 55:45 Fox, possibly 60:40.

55-45 or 60-40 fox

seems like alot of us are in agreement,
55-45 or 60-40 fox's favor

 

[Exceladon City]

60:40 Fox.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

What stages would be ideal for Fox in this match up?

 

[Zhamy]

Jiggly Bans Corneria, Fox Bans Lylat (at Least, I Would.)
Fox Should Cp Halberd, Luigi's, Maybe Rainbow Cruise (personal Preference).

Read, Man.

 

[KheldarVII]

FD would give you lots of room to avoid rollouts or weak smashes. I'd probably be counterpicking Castle Siege, Delphino, ....maybe PS1.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think FD is neutral since JP doesn't really lose anything and foxs blaster has no stun. castle siege is a good one though IMO especially on the second section. Delfino, JP gets sharking and water Fox gets random falling through main platfroms when sideBing. and PS1 hates Foxs recovery, but is overall kinda neutral to me.

 

[gantrain05]

Don't CP luigis mansion against jigglypuff, its not really worth anything. it stops her rollout, but also lets her refresh her Fair, also it seems to be easier for jiggs to get a Dair > Rest combo in on mansion while under the cieling, at least the jiggs i've played can get it off more consistently.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Puff....50:50 or 45:45

I say this cuz I do good and bad against some Puffs

 

[Exceladon City]

i think FD is neutral since JP doesn't really lose anything and foxs blaster has no stun. castle siege is a good one though IMO especially on the second section. Delfino, JP gets sharking and water Fox gets random falling through main platfroms when sideBing. and PS1 hates Foxs recovery, but is overall kinda neutral to me.

At PS 1 I always use the Foxcopter. That stage has ***** Illusion too many times.

 

[Zhamy]

Puff....50:50 or 45:45

Learn to add, please.

 

[gantrain05]

At PS 1 I always use the Foxcopter. That stage has ***** Illusion too many times.

i agree with you here, it seems every time i illusion to the edge it actually just goes underneath the stage and makes me strangle my opponent with my controller chord >.>

 

[KheldarVII]

i agree with you here, it seems every time i illusion to the edge it actually just goes underneath the stage and makes me strangle my opponent with my controller chord >.>

This is where your skills at aiming FireFox down comes into play. If you're doing it horizontally, make sure you curve it downwards slightly. Also mix it up with some illusions and DJs to the stage.

 

[Zhamy]

To quote Xiivi:

***** ***** whine whine my mother is a ***** that's why i whine so much go finish the link discussion already or i ban you

70:30 Link.

Imagine Toon Link. Now imagine him without Bair, slower, with a horrible recovery, and a slightly longer sword. You're more or less left with Link, and really, those things that got taken away don't help him at all. Link's Zair is is good, and his projectile/zoning game isn't bad (gale boomerage makes for some interesting setups), but let's face it - you can outcombo, outdamage, just plain outplay him, and if he's offstage, that's your signal to play like you're recreating Shined Blind (mix in a few Bairs and whatnot too). Bait, punish, repeat. Bait, punish, repeat. Bait, punish, repeat. Bait, punish, USMASH.

If you can beat Toon Link, you can probably beat Link. The same general ideas of zoning and spacing apply to this matchup, but adjusted slightly.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

huh how we get to Link again? but Zhamy sounds mostly correct.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Read, Man.

Lol I didn't have time =D I was in the middle of homework and I was lazy to browse back. I'm in the middle of a quiz as we speak.

I have officially decided to change my major to nursing.

Just call me a male Nurse Joy.

 

[Zhamy]

huh how we get to Link again? but Zhamy sounds mostly correct.

You mean about Xiivi, right?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah i did

 

[GwJ]

We're at Link again because we've gone through just about all the cast and we need to update certain matchups.

THAT, and we didn't even do Link yet.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh yeah. didn't m@v just steal the number from the once link boards?

but when we move to rediscussions who should we do first? i want to do snake personally

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

link has projectiles we have reflector,
link has bad recovery we have reflector,
link is slow we are fast,

fox has advantage.

 

[chaindude]

Link also has a DAC not that it changes the match up a whole lot his bair can lead to a grab depending on what happens may do an ok amount of damage

still obviously a fox advantage i think 65:35 sounds good.

 

[gantrain05]

i don't know about 63/35, a really defensive link is really very frustrating to get inside of. meanwhile your being pelted by boomerangs and bombs and arrows and his ******** Zair, basically link is a beast at zoning, but when you do manage to get inside and knock him offstage its not too tough to gimp him. im gonna lean more towards 60/40

 

[Zhamy]

i don't know about 63/35, a really defensive link is really very frustrating to get inside of

Why do you need to get inside? It's just like with TL, don't get caught midrange. Go either far or close.

I think you're overestimating Link here. If he plays defensive, Fox plays defensive as well in long range, or just beasts in close range. As long as you know how to space, bombs/Zair shouldn't be a problem.

 

[KheldarVII]

Fox has an answer to anything Link can dish out or block with so... I don't see how it's less than 65:35. One of the things that make Link dangerous is his D-air and you just know he'll be hesitant to pull that out on a quick moving Fox, lag aside. Like Zhamy says, make sure he doesn't get the edge at mid-range with Z-air and quick bombs/gales and he'll have to play a harder game.

 

[gantrain05]

i guess i should start playing more long range, cuz legan and arkive just put the ****** on me. i was going really offensive tho so that may have been a part of the problem, but it just felt like when i needed to get in for a kill move it was just really hard to do so.