General ICs Q&A Thread

[DeLux]

Sheik is broken. She has intangibility on startup on like half of her moves, as well as insane frame data. If she had more jumps and a sword, she'd be ban worthy

 

[Roller]

How badly did the Mavs just **** the Heat?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Very badly sir, very very badly.
Yea mavs!
I mean for crappy match ups for ICs is it best to go in and play around with em or use another character against the bad mu?

 

[Smoom77]

Depends on if you have a better character. And if you're loyal to ICs.

 

[Rubberbandman]

@Alphicans - Is it officially a melee term? I was just commenting that I've seen or heard reset used in both contexts. I don't think the lab has officially labeled a name for it (even for forced-getup) so if he were to discuss resetting with someone that thought they were talking about the other scenario, it could be confusing.

@MRGW - I don't understand the question. Could you be more specific? It sounds like a matchup problem on your end. Desyncing allows you to set frame traps to help net a grab setup, but for the most part ICs are more than capable of playing a patient read game without desyncing.

Resetting in fighting game terms is using a move on the opponent to force the opponent back into a neutral position.

It is much more powerful in Smash because when you force this state the opponent cannot counter attack while in the get up animation, which also has vulnerable frames, unlike normal fighters where the opponent is reset to neutral during a combo and can easily counter attack straight out of it if reacted to/read correctly.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I like ics.
But I pocket jiggz Lucas ganon MK g&w and dabble a little pit Mario rob and tink.
I have nice options.

 

[DeLux]

Resetting in fighting game terms is using a move on the opponent to force the opponent back into a neutral position.

It is much more powerful in Smash because when you force this state the opponent cannot counter attack while in the get up animation, which also has vulnerable frames, unlike normal fighters where the opponent is reset to neutral during a combo and can easily counter attack straight out of it if reacted to/read correctly.

So in the case of Brawl, some non-forced getup moves would ALSO be considered a reset?

I like ics.
But I pocket jiggz Lucas ganon MK g&w and dabble a little pit Mario rob and tink.
I have nice options.

For the most part, Jiggs, Lucas, Ganon, and Mario are garbage. Rob is underrated statistically, and people have serious TLink issues and is often a good conditioning tool.

MK and G&W are pretty common secondaries for ICs because they cover RC and Brinstar for CPs. Mario and Lucas would also cover Brinstar, but they get destroyed by MK anyways, so it isn't really useful for the context of your question.

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to learn specific characters on a matchup basis. For game 1, you have to deal with blind picks, so learning a character for only a certain matchup is no good there. If you won, you don't get to pick your character second, and besides, you just beat them with ICs. If you lose a round, it depends on how you did in game 1. If you lose on game 1, then you already lost on a quasi-cp since the starters are usually our best stages anyways and might consider Cheesing it and breaking MK out on Brinny. If you won game 1, but are counterpicking based on losing from your opponents counterpick, it makes no sense to bank your hopes of winning on a secondary. You would probably be better served playing to your primary strength and counterpicking with ICs on a neutral level since you already proved you can win earlier in the match.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Shout out to delux for justifying his answer.
I do better against wario with ganon than ics. Cause ganon has sick GR ko abilities on wario.

 

[Rubberbandman]

So in the case of Brawl, some non-forced getup moves would ALSO be considered a reset?

Seriously, it isnt, because for one most moves in Brawl hit OTG, which would make everything "considerable" for a reset, and for two you can SDI up to get out of most of the non forced get up moves.

Stop trying to get into specifics here.

 

[Attila_]

hey ice climber boards,

just wanted to know if anyone had ever played around with fthrow --> footstool offstage before. obviously cg to spike doesn't work on people who can sdi, but i'm pretty sure you can't sdi a footstool, and ics seem to be able to follow up a footstool with another (or a nair).

if it works, it would be easier than chaingrabbing certain characters, and would reduce the risk of tripping or stuffing up.

 

[DeLux]

This seems like a generally bad idea :\

Scenario A: Technical Precision nets a guaranteed death. Lack of technical precision nets opponent with damage depending on how poor technical precision is.
Scenario B: Technical Precision nets opponent in disadvantageous situation which may or may not yield damage depending on opponent and player's reaction to situation.

We HAVE to opt for scenario A because it eliminates the opponent as an element to factor into our gameplay.

The only time I would ever use a footstool would be on Delfino and Halberd. If Japes were legal, there as well. MAYBE Frigate but that scares me because it sounds like prime Combo Video material bait.

 

[Attila_]

the footstool is guaranteed, as is the subsequent freefall.

another subsquent footstool or nair is quite possibly also guaranteed.

using snake as an example, if footstooled under the ledge, he is forced to retreat with cypher and c4 recover. this can be handled quite well with ice blocks. and worth note, he is notoriously difficult to chaingrab.

 

[DeLux]

Snake being hard to CG is a misconception. I was in the same boat in believing that up until about a month and a half ago.

If you use Dthrow CGs, the frame window for regrab on snake is atleast 5 frames up to about 56%. At around 135%, it becomes a 3 frame window. In reference, the regrab window on hobbling someone is 7 frames.

Once I understood that, I actually CG heavies more consistently than I do lights now lol


TLDR: Dthrow Snake across the stage for the win

 

[Linkvader]

Do you know how many frames of window there are for light and medium characters like Lucario and Meta Knight?

 

[BadKarma]

can I get my videos critiqued please? Me vs dakar in the last tourney I was in. Any tips would be greatly appreciated :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvFYDgx81dE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17z81xuB86g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vGNbroBw6g

 

[DeLux]

Umm it sort of depends on a character to character basis and what types of throws as well as what percents. The only characters that seem to defy the trends are Metaknight and The EB Kids, although for separate reasons.

If you can imagine it being a graph, windows start out large at low percents and gradually decrease to 2 frames because of the amounts of knock back. At some point on characters, that regrab window will shrink from 2 to 0, omitting one frame windows. For example, MK stops being regrabbable by dthrow somewhere between 500-700%. I think somewhere around 800+%, he stops being regrabbable by Fthrow.

But most characters regrab window for Dthrow will start around 5-8 frames at 0%, and will gradually decrease to 2 frames (usually 2 frame windows occur at periods above 300%, so from a practical stand point they didn't matter so I stopped testing). Lighter characters rate of frame window decrease is much faster than heavier characters. MK sort of defies that trend in the sense that you can't technically true infinite MK, but you can true infinite Pikachu. However they are both effectively the same game mechanic weight, so there has to be another factor other than weight at play, although weight is the easiest rule to use conceptually.

Fthrow on the other hand, switches from windows of 4 frames to 2 frames. However, it's rate of frame window decrease occurs MUCH more slowly than Dthrows. I didn't do as extensive of testing into Fthrow mechanics, but it has something to do with the fact that Fthrow has much higher base knockback, but lower knockback growth than dthrow. The EB kids seem to start at 3 frames of regrab window though, although I haven't done conclusive testing revolving around spacing so don't take that at fact just yet.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Karma, I only watched vid 1 but I'd say I would use more blizzard personally.
IIRC it stops naners in their tracks.
So with desynched blizzy you could stop it with one ic and walk forward and grab the naner with the other.


Is the ever a time when (idk the name, Ima just go with reverse IB, but it's where you blizzard on the ground and then immediatly IB so you have your IBs going in different directios.) is useful?
I could see this being slightly useful in doubles... But that's it.

 

[Rubberbandman]

@ BK

In the diddy MU you really should pay attention to how you throw naners. You looked like all you wanted to do was get them out of your immediate path or throw them off the stage, but really that doesn't do much of anything for you. You need to look at the options you have with them naners and react accordingly, in most situations I'd rather keep the banana on the stage or just throw it in the opposite direction of the diddy just to keep it away from them to lower their chances for trip chases, damage and combos. Also, don't forget we have desynch options out of item throws to place the pressure back on diddy.

GnW, Blizzard does NOT stop bananas at all, bananas go right through Blizzard. Ice Blocks stop naners.

 

[Sieguest]

However they are both effectively the same game mechanic weight, so there has to be another factor other than weight at play, although weight is the easiest rule to use conceptually.

I have a feeling you already know what the other factor is (since we talked about it like three times before).

Spacing? Not necessarily for the ICs, but for the hurtbox positioning difference between Pikachu and MK after being thrown.

 

[BadKarma]

@ BK

In the diddy MU you really should pay attention to how you throw naners. You looked like all you wanted to do was get them out of your immediate path or throw them off the stage, but really that doesn't do much of anything for you. You need to look at the options you have with them naners and react accordingly, in most situations I'd rather keep the banana on the stage or just throw it in the opposite direction of the diddy just to keep it away from them to lower their chances for trip chases, damage and combos. Also, don't forget we have desynch options out of item throws to place the pressure back on diddy.

GnW, Blizzard does NOT stop bananas at all, bananas go right through Blizzard. Ice Blocks stop naners.

can you think of any good videos that would show how to play the MU the best?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Which is why I said IIRC.
Blizzards like my favorite move.
I sh blizzys all day.

if you desync blizzard, and blizzy with one IC and and walk up with the other to grab the guy being frozen, how possible is it to do this on a regular basis?
I know it's possible, I did it once cause I had the thought mid blizzy. But haven't tried much besides that.

 

[DeLux]

Based on my testing, I don't think you can grab people being frozen.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I think I was fighting a heavy character. Like wolf or something.
But he wasn't being like frozen, he was in my blizzard tho

 

[DeLux]

Karma, I only watched vid 1 but I'd say I would use more blizzard personally.
IIRC it stops naners in their tracks.
So with desynched blizzy you could stop it with one ic and walk forward and grab the naner with the other.


Is the ever a time when (idk the name, Ima just go with reverse IB, but it's where you blizzard on the ground and then immediatly IB so you have your IBs going in different directios.) is useful?
I could see this being slightly useful in doubles... But that's it.

This is TERRIBLE TERRIBLE advice. Unless you're holding BOTH Bananas, Blizzarding is a ticket to losing $5 the hard way via a one way ticket on Diddy's Pain Train

@ BK

In the diddy MU you really should pay attention to how you throw naners. You looked like all you wanted to do was get them out of your immediate path or throw them off the stage, but really that doesn't do much of anything for you. You need to look at the options you have with them naners and react accordingly, in most situations I'd rather keep the banana on the stage or just throw it in the opposite direction of the diddy just to keep it away from them to lower their chances for trip chases, damage and combos. Also, don't forget we have desynch options out of item throws to place the pressure back on diddy

Another thing I would add to this is that you could also do well to just hold onto bananas and wait for opportunities. Outside of two Diddy's I've played, they are garbage without Banana frame traps. You might do well to watch a few top videos of Diddy players and watch how they use bananas to frame trap and emulate that. And on top of that, using the same frame traps, add in a desynced IB chase for even MORE pressure.

I have a feeling you already know what the other factor is (since we talked about it like three times before).

Spacing? Not necessarily for the ICs, but for the hurtbox positioning difference between Pikachu and MK after being thrown.

I understand what you're saying, but I meant more into the context that the spacing is the end result and I'm trying to figure out what affects the spacing. A convo with Toomai awhile ago had him saying that he thought there 7 variables that influenced knockback. I feel like since the weight is constant, other variables would have an effect, I just don't know exactly how it works.

can you think of any good videos that would show how to play the MU the best?

Most videos are of Diddy's giving Nana the business =\

I think I was fighting a heavy character. Like wolf or something.
But he wasn't being like frozen, he was in my blizzard tho

A blizzard chasing trap is different than actually freezing them though. If we could grab frozen people, we would have an adv on MK imo. Since we can't, we're at a disadvantage. It is THAT game changing, which is why I felt the need to clarify because if what you were stating were the case, I'd immediately demand to know how you're doi.ng it because it would be broken as ****

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Then I wouldn't tell you and take lains title as the best.
Mwahaha.
No I mean blizzard traps.

 

[Roller]

Has anyone seen Invictus?

 

[Sieguest]

I understand what you're saying, but I meant more into the context that the spacing is the end result and I'm trying to figure out what affects the spacing. A convo with Toomai awhile ago had him saying that he thought there 7 variables that influenced knockback. I feel like since the weight is constant, other variables would have an effect, I just don't know exactly how it works.

Oooh okay! (Time to pull a librarian)

 

[Rubberbandman]

Then I wouldn't tell you and take lains title as the best.
Mwahaha.

Just for the record, Lux is the best Ice Climber. He isn't the best player of Ice Climbers (yet), but he is the best Ice Climber.

 

[Attila_]

out of interest, what are the ics mu ratios with diddy, mk, snake, marth and wario right now?

do ics still keep up?

 

[Mr. game and watch]

I'm bad at all of those

 

[Smoom77]

Diddy: 45:55. Could be even, but Diddy has an easier time.

MK: 40:60 imo.

Snake: 40:60 or 45:55

Marth: Not sure.

Wario: 50:50 or 55:45 imo. Haven't played any really good warios recently.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Marth is 45:55 imo.

 

[ch33s3]

out of interest, what are the ics mu ratios with diddy, mk, snake, marth and wario right now?

do ics still keep up?

IMO:
Diddy/ICs is evenish, MK:IC is 7:3, Snake is evenish, IC/Marth is 6:4, Wario/IC is evenish.

 

[B0NK]

Diddy is 50:50

MK is 30:70 (If you have ridiculous reaction, 40:60, basing this off frame data, human reaction time, and my experience.)

Snake is 40:60

Marth is 50:50

Wario is 50:50

These are my ratios if both players know the match-up perfectly, not using gimmicks (they shouldn't work), etc.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

But wario ***** me.

 

[B0NK]

^^^which means Wario ***** IC's???

Flawed logic.

 

[Roller]

Wario is 100-0 imo.

 

[Linkvader]

I need help on the Olimar MU. Is blizzards the only way to approach him? His smashes are too annoying, and the only good thing about the MU is that he's easy to CG...

 

[Hylian]

Has anyone seen Invictus?

Yeah I saw it the other night with my girlfriend. Liked it a lot.

Just for the record, Lux is the best Ice Climber. He isn't the best player of Ice Climbers (yet), but he is the best Ice Climber.

Huh? Define "best". If by most knowledgeable then yes, but from history with many games/sports/ect we can conclude that knowing the most does not qualify you to be the best.

Not to knock on lux because the stuff he finds is amazing, but we honestly can't say any of it is even better than current things considering it hasn't proven to be by any IC player yet in tournament. Results and consistency > theory , though we should always be theorizing.

Lain has proven to be the best IC player many times over through sheer consistency if nothing else.

I need help on the Olimar MU. Is blizzards the only way to approach him? His smashes are too annoying, and the only good thing about the MU is that he's easy to CG...

Blizzards are useful but don't make you invincible, you need to space them correctly. Short version of the match-up: Use blizzard and IB mixups to push olimar to the edge where you are at your greatest advantage over him. When he's at the edge a combination of IB/blizzard desynching depending on what he does will usually lead to a grab. If he jumps over you get free uairs and start the process over.


All the mk is 7:3 talk is ridiculous. If ICs vs MK was 7:3 then how in the world have lain and I collectively beaten pretty much every top mk player in tournament? We are certainly not tons better than them, and they certainly know the match-up. There are many instances of top mk's doing better against IC's using secondaries. 7/3 match-ups are absurdly hard, this is just obvious qq towards mk more than anything.

 

[DeLux]

I would agree with Hylian. I am like that one movie with Michael Cera and Jonah Hill where they both try to get laid and don't have the balls to seal the deal.

Like if I could rate IC players it would be like

Best at Desyncing - Me
Best at playing Desynced - Hylian
Best at JV 4 Stocking People - Smoom
Best at abusing DSC theory reads - Cheese
Best at Bad Grammar - 2D Jeff
Best at Math - Guest
Best at Keeping the people in line - Enda
Best at Dancing in Costumes - Future
Best at Winning - Lain
Best at Life - Ealert

Best at CGing - Nobody we all suck which is why our character doesn't win ****

And I would write up about the Olimar matchup, but Dnyce would end up reading it and using it against me so then I'd be frustrated for a night until I have to adapt to turn it back around on him lol