Jigglypuff Counters Meta Knight: A Guide

[Thinkaman]

Your moving and persuasive argument has caused me to immediately understand all the flaws in my thinking. I recant everything.

 

[illinialex24]

My Latest Matchup Thoughts:

7:3
Bowser
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Ike
Sonic

6:4
Mario
Yoshi
Link
Shiek
Samus
Pit
Ivysaur
Lucas

5:5
Peach
Diddy
Zamus
ROB
Kirby
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Charizard
Jigglypuff

45:55
DK
Toon Link
Olimar
Pikachu
Lucario
Snake

4:6
Luigi
Wario
Ice Climbers
DeDeDe
Squirtle
Marth
Ness

3:7
Game & Watch

Just for the record.

Your matchups, unfortunately, are fairly flawed. There is no way some of these characters are better than a 30-70 for the other characters ownage and yet I see Olimar and Falco both above it and G&W on it. Trust me, Falco dominates Jigglypuff and so does Olimar. There is no real counter to them. These matchups on some of these are overestimating Jigglypuff by 10%, i.e., G&W would become 90-10 and Olimar 75-25. These are pretty far off.

 

[Thinkaman]

Olimar is nowhere near 75-25. I play Olimar constantly, and his main advantages in the matchup are marginalized rapidly once you become familar with his hitboxes. Also, pay attention to his Pikmin lineup... once I really started making myself aware of what he had next, I was able to consistently live 30-40% longer.

G&W is also not 90-10. He's Jiggs worst matchup, but he isn't unbeatable. If he's playing the bair safe as he should, he should have relatively restricted movement... otherwise you'll be able to get in a bair of your own. G&W's kill moves are also somewhat predictable, and no amount of IASA frames are going to change how much initial lag his smashes have... He's so light that you can use fair more liberally than you normally would, as well as go for broke with low percent rollout and rest kills if you are feeling lucky. At WTON, I played a lot of G&Ws, but only lost to NoJ and lain. It's really tough, but no worse than 70-30.

Falco does not dominate Jigglypuff because Falco dominates people who are in front of him. Jigglypuff should NEVER be wasting time in front of Falco... Lasers are no problem, the chainthrow is no problem, and you can gimp his recovery about as well as anyone else in the game. Falco is a great character, but Jiggs can basically get around all his best approach options.

What are Olimar and Falco supposed to do that shut down Jiggs?

 

[Steel]

Jiggs only has one large disadvantage?

Good one.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, we can certainly all agree that G&W is the worst matchup by some margin. But who else do you claim does extremely well against the puff?

 

[Steel]

Looking at each characters tools and not by personal experience:

GW
Snake
D3
Marth
Zelda
Possibly DK because of his range, though i really don't know this match up too well

I feel those are her worst match ups, may be more though

 

[Thinkaman]

Snake, DDD, and Marth are probably the toughest matchups after G&W, but they don't come close. I've won and lost relatively equal amounts against players around my skill level at tourneys who main them. At Ann Arbor Kel sent me to loser's first round with Marth after I beat his MK; at WTON Big C did the same with his Snake after I beat his DDD in friendlies. I have less trouble with Legan's Marth than his Link! (Though that has more to do with his Link being amazing...) The matchups are disfavorable to Jigglypuff, but certainly requires overcoming less to win than a match against G&W.

Zelda? My roommate last year played Zelda almost exclusively; Zelda forecasts all of her attacks so obviously that a character with high aerial speed like Jigglypuff has little excuse to be getting hit frequently. Just don't walk into smashes or aerials and life is good; every Zelda I've played at a tourney has been a very easy match for me.

DK does not counter Jigglypuff; I played Ripple in two sets and a friendly at a tourney this weekend, and beat him each time. (He did win games in the both sets though.) DK's entire game against Jigglypuff consists of his bair and D-Smash... which are really good. However, beyond that he is easy to hit around, easy to edgeguard once you get it down, and easy to grab. DK also has almost no good stages to pick against Jiggs, who has a ton of stages to pick against DK.

Zelda is 50-50 at best, and DK is barely better than that; he's still a good character.

 

[Steel]

See, that's why i said "not by personal experience."

What it boils down to is at the roots Jiggs can't really deal with these characters as well as you think.

Two things are most likely happening here:

1. You are a better player than these people at tourneys you keep referring to
2. They lack experience vs Jigglypuff

You say they aren't as bad as GW. That's probably true, so what you need to do IMO is move GW down to 80:20 or so, maybe 75:25 so that there is more room for other characters that can be put below 60 40.

Snake can effectively shut down aerial approaches by just throwing his knee out there, not to mention he can kill extremely early and so can D3. But you probably know all of this.

All of Marth's attacks are disjointed, if the Marth plays the match up properly Jiggs will have a very hard time getting through his sword, and once she does she won't be there for too long.

I wasn't sure about Zelda and DK, they both have longer ranged aerials, better killing power, and zelda a far-reaching recovery.

I'm just asking you to stop going only by personal experience when you look at match ups. You obviously have much talent with Jiggs, no one else is doing as well as you are with her from what I've seen. But you need to look at the theory side of things: Two top level players of equal skill.

This is like saying I play a great Mario and I beat every MK i play at tourneys. This doesn't make it any less of a **** match in Meta's favor.

 

[grandmaster192]

why the heck do you guys have jiggz even with MK???

That doesn't make any sense...

 

[illinialex24]

See, that's why i said "not by personal experience."

What it boils down to is at the roots Jiggs can't really deal with these characters as well as you think.

Two things are most likely happening here:

1. You are a better player than these people at tourneys you keep referring to
2. They lack experience vs Jigglypuff

You say they aren't as bad as GW. That's probably true, so what you need to do IMO is move GW down to 80:20 or so, maybe 75:25 so that there is more room for other characters that can be put below 60 40.

Snake can effectively shut down aerial approaches by just throwing his knee out there, not to mention he can kill extremely early and so can D3. But you probably know all of this.

All of Marth's attacks are disjointed, if the Marth plays the match up properly Jiggs will have a very hard time getting through his sword, and once she does she won't be there for too long.

I wasn't sure about Zelda and DK, they both have longer ranged aerials, better killing power, and zelda a far-reaching recovery.

I'm just asking you to stop going only by personal experience when you look at match ups. You obviously have much talent with Jiggs, no one else is doing as well as you are with her from what I've seen. But you need to look at the theory side of things: Two top level players of equal skill.

This is like saying I play a great Mario and I beat every MK i play at tourneys. This doesn't make it any less of a **** match in Meta's favor.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Steel]

why the heck do you guys have jiggz even with MK???

That doesn't make any sense...

How did I miss this?

yeah, Jiggs doens't go even with MK either... definitely.

 

[illinialex24]

How did I miss this?

yeah, Jiggs doens't go even with MK either... definitely.

Got it at 60-40 MK, sound about right? He is the easiest to rest of any character and more.

 

[grandmaster192]

I think 7-3 MK is more accurate, unless there's something I don't know about the match up.

 

[Glick]

K. I really don't need people that don't play jigglypuff coming in here pretending that they know puff matchups. They just know MK so they are going to meat ride the fact that hes "broken"

 

[Boxob]

So, Sonic ***** Puff.

Discuss.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Bowser being 30-70 with jigglypuff is actually wrong.

If you fight a good bowser he can grab relase you into any arieal including u air. Bowser > Jiggs.

 

[PND]

I'm actually with Thinkaman on the matchups he specified.

My crewmate plays a lot of Zelda, and it's not that hard of a match. If I lose, it's because I did something stupid. I'd still tip it in Zelda's favor, but only slightly. 55-45, I'd say.

Marth? Snake aside, Jiggs does better against Marth than my other two "mains" (see sig.) I don't think you've played a top or high level Jiggs. (because honestly I can pretty much count on one hand the number of them who are active.) I have LOTS of Marth experience, Ottawa is the Marth capital of Canada. The ones I've faced / beat usually agree that the match is a LOT closer than they thought it was.

Why is this match closer? Jiggs is constantly safe. Marth doesn't have a projectile, Jiggs can actually force a Marth to approach and punish it (rare in matches). She can get out of dancing blade due to her light weight, she can out maneuver fair chains and punish, she can survive the dair gimp or an Up B stage spike, and she can gimp him. To his credit Marth can and will kill early, and can brick wall the hell out of Jiggs if she's ever in a position that she's forced to approach. (down by percent / stock)

Don't get me wrong, it's still Marth's advantage, but it's not OMG **** like all Marth mains seem to think.


. . .

Plus Jiggs is good at planking.

 

[PND]

Bowser being 30-70 with jigglypuff is actually wrong.

If you fight a good bowser he can grab relase you into any arieal including u air. Bowser > Jiggs.

Don't get grabbed. If Jiggs gets grabbed, you're doing something hella wrong.

 

[Boxob]

No really, has anyone here ever fought a good Sonic?

Wi-fi me if you want to. It'd change your idea of the match up.

 

[Steel]

I'm actually with Thinkaman on the matchups he specified.

My crewmate plays a lot of Zelda, and it's not that hard of a match. If I lose, it's because I did something stupid. I'd still tip it in Zelda's favor, but only slightly. 55-45, I'd say.

Marth? Snake aside, Jiggs does better against Marth than my other two "mains" (see sig.) I don't think you've played a top or high level Jiggs. (because honestly I can pretty much count on one hand the number of them who are active.) I have LOTS of Marth experience, Ottawa is the Marth capital of Canada. The ones I've faced / beat usually agree that the match is a LOT closer than they thought it was.

Why is this match closer? Jiggs is constantly safe. Marth doesn't have a projectile, Jiggs can actually force a Marth to approach and punish it (rare in matches).

Why.. exactly does Marth have to approach? Whether he does or not though, Jiggs is still at a huge disadvantage. She can't deal with disjointed hitboxes very well and can't do anything vs Marth's zoning except try and float away.

She can get out of dancing blade due to her light weight,

out of certain combinations of it she can, it mostly depends on the percent and how she DI's. it's definitely not a "Jiggs will always get out"

she can out maneuver fair chains and punish,

Uh, fair chains? What marth's are you playing again?

she can survive the dair gimp or an Up B stage spike, and she can gimp him. To his credit Marth can and will kill early, and can brick wall the hell out of Jiggs if she's ever in a position that she's forced to approach. (down by percent / stock)

precisely.

Don't get me wrong, it's still Marth's advantage, but it's not OMG **** like all Marth mains seem to think.

70:30 is a large advantage, I'm not going to spew false information out and tell the community they have a good chance against a character that they really struggle against.

Whether or not I've played a top level Jiggs is irrelevant, it's not hard to look at each character's tools and see how they can or can't apply them to the match up.

Again, just more personal experience arguments. They don't work. They can't. They aren't logical enough to warrant anything.

Keep in mind Marth could basically camp Jiggs with a jab. Obviously this won't happen, but just putting into perspective how hard of a time Jiggs SHOULD be having getting inside. I don't think the Marths you are playing are either that good and/or don't play the match up correctly.

 

[illinialex24]

No really, has anyone here ever fought a good Sonic?

Wi-fi me if you want to. It'd change your idea of the match up.

Sonic loses to Jigglypuff by a fair amount. And wifi says nothing.

 

[Boxob]

Sonic loses to Jigglypuff by a fair amount. And wifi says nothing.

If I beat your jiggs 20 times in a row, that would say something, regardless of the .1 seconds of input lag.

Sonic ***** puff.

 

[Chis]

Sonic loses to Jigglypuff by a fair amount. And wifi says nothing.

This is like the Fox boards again...

 

[Glick]

lol. No, Sonic doesn't. Stop trying to start trouble. I know AMAZING sonics and we usually go even.

 

[illinialex24]

This is like the Fox boards again...

No, I am not overestimating the puff. I am one of those people who hates/ loves Jigglypuff. Hate how bad Sakurai made her. Love her style. So I main her. However, Sonic is not even to Jigglypuff. Its not 70-30, but its 60-40.

 

[Boxob]

Well, all I know is, I've never once lost to a Jiggs.

 

[PND]

1) She can smash DI out of it after the second to third hit with proper DI and good reflex.
2) Yeah, fair chains. By that, I generally mean aerial approach, which usually starts with fair -> ____, fair -> land, then ____ If she gets hit by the fair, she's completely out of the Marth's zone for follow up.
3) On paper isn't everything. M2K has stated after Pound 3 that he thought that Melee Jiggs was the best character in Melee, even though she wasn't so. On paper.
4) Marth can just jab camp: Pound. Space a Roll into Rest. Time an airdodge into Rest. Hard to do, but difficulty is no factor in top level. Right?

I already admitted Marths can brickwall. I already admitted Marths have the advantage, but it's NOT as glaring as you seem to think.

Let's play a game:
Tell me how you'd approach a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.
Tell me how you'd camp a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.

 

[Boxob]

Let's play a game:
Tell me how you'd approach a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.
Tell me how you'd camp a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.

Fair, retreating fair. Second fair keeps me more than spaced enough to not get hit.

Retreating fair, Shield, repeat. If you attack the shield, consider yourself grabbed.

 

[PND]

Fair, retreating fair. Second fair keeps me more than spaced enough to not get hit.

Retreating fair, Shield, repeat. If you attack the shield, consider yourself grabbed.

A) Follow out of range and attempt to pound trap your landing lag. Or dodge twice and follow his momentum, at which point you're in range for a nair. I mean, the risk is far greater than reward in both of these responses.

B) Jiggs won't get shield grabbed, otherwise Jiggs is doing something wrong. My answer to this is either time Pound to reduce your shield, or short charge a rollout to once again, reduce your shield and get motoring out of danger zone, in hopes that next time you attempt it I can shield poke it with a high / low bair. Once again, risk > reward for puff. This would be a slow process. Or dodge the fair, keep going and attempt to shield grab you. All our throws do 10%, so we don't mind.

Just saying, we *can* theoretically get around scenarios like that. It's usually dangerous or tedious, but we do have ways.

And this is fun. Please gimme moar.

 

[Steel]

1) She can smash DI out of it after the second to third hit with proper DI and good reflex.
2) Yeah, fair chains. By that, I generally mean aerial approach, which usually starts with fair -> ____, fair -> land, then ____ If she gets hit by the fair, she's completely out of the Marth's zone for follow up.
3) On paper isn't everything. M2K has stated after Pound 3 that he thought that Melee Jiggs was the best character in Melee, even though she wasn't so. On paper.
4) Marth can just jab camp: Pound. Space a Roll into Rest. Time an airdodge into Rest. Hard to do, but difficulty is no factor in top level. Right?

I already admitted Marths can brickwall. I already admitted Marths have the advantage, but it's NOT as glaring as you seem to think.

Let's play a game:
Tell me how you'd approach a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.
Tell me how you'd camp a Jiggs. I'll tell you how she can get around it.

LOL, please you are actually taking m2k's word as fact? Of course he's going to say **** like that after he gets owned. He said diddy was the ultimate meta knight counter once he lost to Ninjalink. He can't or doesn't analyze match ups at all, he just goes by whatever he thinks. Doesn't make it true.

If she gets hit by a fair then she is sent back out, how does this guarantee her a hit as she floats back? Why can't Marth follow up?

Don't bring that gimmicky roll > rest / air dodge > rest into something like this, that's just dumb.

How does he approach Jiggs? He swings his sword at her at tipper range.

How does he camp Jiggs? He has a sword.

Let's play a game: Tell me how a character with less range, power, speed, and a not-as-good moveset can even hope to compete?

 

[PND]

Don't bring your gimmicky tipper into this. That's just dumb. Seems to be a similar sentiment.

Listen. MARTH HAS THE ADVANTAGE. IT'S NOT AS HUGE AS YOU GUYS SEEM TO THINK. I'd put it at 65:35 myself, but it's not beyond that.

And when I said outmaneuver and punish fair, I said outmaneuver then punish. IF she gets hit, it's better to get out of zone so as not to get followed up. Reread what I posted if you want. If you get hit, she can zone herself away from Marth better than a lot of heavier characters.

Anyway. Why not throw me some legimate scenarios instead of I HAVES SWORD I WIN

I'm not saying Jiggs is god, or she's the best counterpick against a Marth. I'm saying she has the tools to throw a Marth off. Jiggs IS a bad character. I know it. I've come to grips with it.

EDIT: Speed: her aerials come out between 5 to 8 frames. She has some the fastest aerial movement speed in the game. She HAS the slowest RUN speed in the game, but her Foxtrot allows to her to pace herself at the speed of some below average characters. But why would you be on the ground?

I love this debate. <3 you guys.

 

[Boxob]

A) Follow out of range and attempt to pound trap your landing lag. Or dodge twice and follow his momentum, at which point you're in range for a nair. I mean, the risk is far greater than reward in both of these responses.

B) Jiggs won't get shield grabbed, otherwise Jiggs is doing something wrong. My answer to this is either time Pound to reduce your shield, or short charge a rollout to once again, reduce your shield and get motoring out of danger zone, in hopes that next time you attempt it I can shield poke it with a high / low bair. Once again, risk > reward for puff. This would be a slow process. Or dodge the fair, keep going and attempt to shield grab you. All our throws do 10%, so we don't mind.

Just saying, we *can* theoretically get around scenarios like that. It's usually dangerous or tedious, but we do have ways.

And this is fun. Please gimme moar.

It's so much risk with Jiggs, sucks that you have to rely so much of your opponent not being smart.

I wouldn't give you more situations, only because a Marth playing to win will do that the entire match, and it will work.

 

[Steel]

Well good, that's the first step.

And no, tippers is not the same thing as roll into a rest. One is spacing, the other is luck.

65:35 isn't too big a difference from 70:30, but I'm pretty sure Jiggs is at a large disadvantage.

 

[PND]

It not so much not being thriving on dumb players, it's more based on repetition. Most of the things I listed can be counter-countered by a retreat, and then we're at square one.

If our counter does work, the effect is far from immediate. That's the biggest disadvantage I see. So we can shield pressure you until we're about to hit you, and then you take a step back. ****. Nothing's been gained by what we've been trying to do except perhaps positioning, and if we ****ed up even minorly we just took stupid percent.

 

[PND]

Odds stipulate that 70:30 generally means you can never win a full set. 65:35 means with some hell of playing you can win a set. That's the difference I see. Roll into rest or airdodge into rest isn't as luck based as you think. If we go to do it, and you move, we're not going to rest. We'll be in range to attempt to counter, though. Roll/dodge into rest is not a buffered combo, it's completely observational.

 

[PND]

Hey, Steel. You're in Jersey, so you should come up to Only in Niagara in like a week.

I'll def friendly you if you come and we can continue to the debate in person. With GC controllers. And possibly beer, because the venue is a bar.

EDIT: OH **** TRIPLE POST

 

[HiddenBowser]

wow, this thread kind of exploded, lol. Boxob, go back to your gay hentai loving sonic boards

Also, the reason I'm not commenting on the character matchup ratios is because I haven't looked at them and don't really care to, lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

See, that's why i said "not by personal experience."

What it boils down to is at the roots Jiggs can't really deal with these characters as well as you think.

Two things are most likely happening here:

1. You are a better player than these people at tourneys you keep referring to
2. They lack experience vs Jigglypuff

I'm just asking you to stop going only by personal experience when you look at match ups. You obviously have much talent with Jiggs, no one else is doing as well as you are with her from what I've seen. But you need to look at the theory side of things: Two top level players of equal skill.

I wrote out a really long reply to this, and Google Chrome crashed. Don't use Chrome guys.

Basically, I understand where you are coming from. The problem is that I'm not talking about random people.

Yes, my Olimar and Zelda experience comes from roommates, I've seen them only once each in an actual tourney. However, my Meta Knight experience comes from Kel, Overswarm, Rofa, DSF, and others. My Snake experience comes from not just the local main, but also Samurai Panda, Big C, and some other guys I played at Indiana. My roommate sometimes plays Lucario, but my matches with Blood Hawk shaped my opinions of the matchup, not the matches with him. Big C, chewwy, Joshu all had great DDDs; Chewy and Joshu showed me what could be done with Falcon too. Infern's Ike, Smash64's Ness, Scala's Yoshi... Chewyy and lain's ICs? Kyari and most the local STL smashes have good Marths; Toga has a great Wario.

I'm not talking about scrubs I beat at local tournies; my views are shaped by actual matches with good players.

This is like saying I play a great Mario and I beat every MK i play at tourneys. This doesn't make it any less of a **** match in Meta's favor.

Right... but none of Jigg's matchups are anywhere near that bad, though G&W comes close.

There was a really good Mario main at WTON who made it pretty far. He got up against OS and took him to a MK ditto, since Mario had no chance. His MK wasn't that amazing so he obviously lost, but it was still a better shot than his Mario. Jigg's matchups aren't exactly going to set the world on fire, but she is lucky that she doesn't have any THAT bad.

Whether or not I've played a top level Jiggs is irrelevant, it's not hard to look at each character's tools and see how they can or can't apply them to the match up.

Theory is just that when experience proves otherwise. I once theorized that Pokemon Trainer had potential to be a G&W counter though some ridiculous logic that sounded really good at the time. I tried my theory out against NoJ, and that was that.

You can say that a matchup should be this or that, but that doesn't change results. On paper, MK beats Jigglypuff in almost every category... but in practice, the gap in their aerial speeds combined with the duration of Meta Knights attacks and nuances of how the game handles hitboxes allows the "inferior" Jigglypuff to get hits in...

Also, Sonic troll, get out of my thread. This is a guide, not a place for random people to make pointless wi-fi challenges. You know what Sonic says about online...

 

[PND]

<3 you Thinkaman.

 

[Thinkaman]

Any example of how experience has changed my perspective:

I originally thought that Jigglypuff ***** ICs. After all, Chewyy's ICs got 3rd (I think?) at MSOP3, but I two stocked him first game we had in loser's bracket at Ann Arbor. (He beat me with DDD after I missed a rest in *BOTH* of the following matches! XD) This, I reckoned, partly confirmed my belief.

Then I played lain at WTON, challenging him to a MM. I ***** Nana, but he beat me with solo Popo! (He also managed to get some chaingrabs off...) I had a great deal of trouble approaching him, especially when Nana was synced. My normal diagonal approach options were cut off! I was unsure if it was lain, me, or the matchup though.

I played chewwy again recently, and his ICs did better against my Jigglypuff than Pokemon Trainer! Clearly our original match was not indicative of the full matchup, since now I found my aerial approach options cut off just as they were against lain. Although Jigglypuff remains one of the best Nana destroyers in the game, I am forced to drastically depart from my original, theoretical view of the matchup.