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im sry veril but good pple learn, and a good mk will not continue to fall into jigglypuffs pounds or tornado her if she rests his tornado
edit- and with absolutely no creditable footage of my puff offline, how can u say who is better than who? IDC personally its just a little early to be naming anyone "best jigglypuff"
I dont give a **** how good someone is when they make comments. I think its dumb when Boss says that tiers dont exist, and i think its dumb to assume that the meta knight wont know how to fight jigglypuff when talking about a matchup.
THE POINT OF A MATCHUP IS TO ASSUME BOTH PLAYERS KNOW IT. They WONT use tornado more than once if they see it doesnt do ****, and they wont try to outprioritize pound once they see its prioritastic.
Well i do love my blanket statements.
Heres the support:
Down air beats jiggs uair. Go figure.
Up air beats our down air and can punish airdodges. Go figure.
Ftilt and Dtilt beat all ground options. Go figure.
Aaaand his aerials outrange us except for pound. Go figure.
Wtf? Why are people insulting each other over this? I understand getting "passionate" about the matchup discussion (?!), but there's no need to actually insult people. This is just immature...
Wtf? Why are people insulting each other over this? I understand getting "passionate" about the matchup discussion (?!), but there's no need to actually insult people. This is just immature...
its not about mk himself per say, i think what burntsocks is pointing out is that veril n glick assumed the mk doesnt know the matchup as well as the jigglypuff user does, and you cant do that in a matchup discussion because you have to assume that each player knows the matchup equally
Im just being silly Im sure neither of them are stupid, and im guessing they dont play awful people either. Just that glicks comments were kinda not...good.
This is the internet. Being silly and jokingly insulting people = insulting people. Especially when no one here knows you besides Meta.
its not about mk himself per say, i think what burntsocks is pointing out is that veril n glick assumed the mk doesnt know the matchup as well as the jigglypuff user does, and you cant do that in a matchup discussion because you have to assume that each player knows the matchup equally
Why is Glick always the target of stupid comments like this. He's better with Jiggs than you or Meta, and he's active in NYC tourney scene. In other words stfu.
I never said he was the best, but he does play against top competition as per being in NYC. The idea that good MK's, really good ones, aren't in NYC is beyond ********.
As to the rest % thing, since generally when you rest the nado you aren't grounded, I'd venture to say that under a dozen people in the world know the rest KO% well at different heights. Rest % gets very very low when you get moderately high. The nado's priority isn't that insane unless its rising... see where I'm going with this. Nado isn't that good against us.
Some other points I've made:
D-air will beat shuttle loop outside of its invincibility frames.
Our pivot grab has crazy range and is amazing here.
We are much faster and more maneuverable in the air. D-air isn't too hard to avoid.
Grab-release > f-air or Dacus IS A TRUE COMBO.
MK dies as early as we do.
Ok fair enough.
Fine, any good meta knight that knows the matchup will not try to challenge pound while jiggs is recovering. Reasonable yes?
When playing against jiggs with MK, i really dont use tornado unless they are grounded, which isnt often, or they are being overly aggressive with aerials when im not at high %. I dont exactly know the matchup with MK, but i know that rest punishes tornado, so i wont be using it up high much, and i wont be abusing it. I would assume most decent meta knights who are somewhat knowledgable with the matchup would do the same.
Now, nado being unsafe is advanteous, but isnt an advantage in itself. It could mean other things, but not being able to use tornado isnt an advantage by itself. Fair enough?
I didnt know dair beat shuttle loop, thats neat.
Dair isnt that hard to avoid but meta knight enjoys dair camping, which highly limits your options. Jiggs has low ground speed so if she gets trapped on ground while meta knight is dair camping, she doesnt have too many options. Lucky jiggs, if meta knight follows up with a tornado like they normally do they are in trouble, so though dair camping is trouble, it is less troublesome because of her ability to punish tornado.
Up air is still a huge problem given her floatiness. And jiggs still gets wrecked by ftilt because of its range and gives her trouble approaching. Pound might beat it but pound isnt safe on block.
W/e, im out now. I suck with jiggs anyways, sorry for being a bother.
Sorry glick, you didnt deserve the attack.
Dang it, I wrote a post and accidently clicked hit back. Anyway, random thoughts on a passing scene:
The best way to deal with f-tilt spam is actually roll to grab. I did most of my damage to domo this way, since he is a more aggressive MK that doesn't d-smash spam much. Against say Overswarm, I would do more damage approaching with Pound.
Remember that the thing you have most to fear is grounded shuttle loop, especially fresh... if you can avoid just that and not make any stupid decisions off-stage, you can live pretty long.
I get most of my kills on MK with fair -> fair.
Does grab release to DACUS actually help ever? I don't know any Meta Knight who grab breaks high, they have no reason to... Not when throws are certain, instant, and do 10.5%... Honestly I don't DACUS; I probably should practice it more so I can throw it out in some situations (I've gotten kills with it before), but I can't help but feel it isn't half as useful as people say.
At mid percents, you've already decided whether or not you are going to use fair for damage this stock. However, you need to start thinking about saving dash attack. I'm not saying you should always do it, I'm saying you should decide. This can apply to other matchups as well, but MK is a prime case.
If both fair and dash attack are stale, I typically go for a rollout at mid percents. If they don't punish you, do it more. Always end off stage. This applies to all matchups without projectiles.
While I'm thinking of domo, he suggested that Jigglypuff has the most potential to improve the matchup by developing a good pivot grab game. I'm not sure I agree, I seldom pivot grab with Jiggs... This is worth thinking about though. I'd be interested to hear what other good Jiggs think. How often do you guys pivot grab? I think his idea was using it to punish spot dodges.
I've been getting more kills with f-smash lately... but I think that's mostly against new players. (Talking about both MK specifically and other matchups.)
I'm beginning to think that u-tilt is one of Jigg's better moves.
It's almost 6 am and there's a tourney tomorrow. Sleep time.
As you can see, it is impossible to fight Meta Knight. There are no recorded instances of anyone defeating Meta Knight with any character ever, much less Jigglypuff, who is the worst character in the game and has no redeeming qualities or viable options in any situation. Everyone should quit playing Brawl right now.
PROTIP: If anyone says "soft-ban" in this topic, I will Falcon Punch them. With Jigglypuff.
I dont give a **** how good someone is when they make comments. I think its dumb when Boss says that tiers dont exist, and i think its dumb to assume that the meta knight wont know how to fight jigglypuff when talking about a matchup.
THE POINT OF A MATCHUP IS TO ASSUME BOTH PLAYERS KNOW IT. They WONT use tornado more than once if they see it doesnt do ****, and they wont try to outprioritize pound once they see its prioritastic.
Well i do love my blanket statements.
Heres the support:
Down air beats jiggs uair. Go figure.
Up air beats our down air and can punish airdodges. Go figure.
Ftilt and Dtilt beat all ground options. Go figure.
Aaaand his aerials outrange us except for pound. Go figure.
Lmao.
That's seriously ironic, because I played a friendly against M2k. That seemed to be about the only thing he was falling for. I guess "the robot" is just a stupid player. But of course, there are some people who know this matchup, but nobody perfect and if they have a habit of trying to sweep you off the ledge (MKS DO HAVE THIS HABIT) they will eat pound. I don't see the fault here. Its very hard to punish. If you are at high percents just be prepared to tech if you can see it coming.
PS: Tornado actually knocks jiggz off the ledge of pound. DONT TELL THEM THIS. Also dont tell G&W's that you can rest their key. As well as don't tell anybody that you can bthrow them on jungle japes and platform spike them. Dont tell the samus' that you can rest their up b really easily. Dont tell the MK's you can rest them out of their tornado, or that you can duck under 60% of ganon's moves and rest them. Don't tell luigi's they can kill you with upper angled fsmash and kill you at like 50% or lower. I almost forgot, don't forget to tell the snakes that you can rest their dacus or that they should seriously try grabbing you out of your dair to grab chains. Because it does work. And that being predictable with their air dodges in the air can get them rested really easily. There is a reason why jigglypuff is bottom tier. So sorry if I have to work off theory here. god ****.
I also realized you contradicted yourself. Pounding the edge a few times before coming back on stage only gives the mk's a few frames to hit jigglypuff. And if they attack you while your doing pound, because "his aerials outrange us except for pound. Go figure." Yeah.
Its a bad matchup, but so are the rest of her matchups.
She does not counter MK. Its just one of the more non ******** matchups for her.
OTE=Thinkaman;7192271]Dang it, I wrote a post and accidently clicked hit back. Anyway, random thoughts on a passing scene:
The best way to deal with f-tilt spam is actually roll to grab. I did most of my damage to domo this way, since he is a more aggressive MK that doesn't d-smash spam much. Against say Overswarm, I would do more damage approaching with Pound.
Remember that the thing you have most to fear is grounded shuttle loop, especially fresh... if you can avoid just that and not make any stupid decisions off-stage, you can live pretty long.
I get most of my kills on MK with fair -> fair.
Does grab release to DACUS actually help ever? I don't know any Meta Knight who grab breaks high, they have no reason to... Not when throws are certain, instant, and do 10.5%... Honestly I don't DACUS; I probably should practice it more so I can throw it out in some situations (I've gotten kills with it before), but I can't help but feel it isn't half as useful as people say.
At mid percents, you've already decided whether or not you are going to use fair for damage this stock. However, you need to start thinking about saving dash attack. I'm not saying you should always do it, I'm saying you should decide. This can apply to other matchups as well, but MK is a prime case.
If both fair and dash attack are stale, I typically go for a rollout at mid percents. If they don't punish you, do it more. Always end off stage. This applies to all matchups without projectiles.
While I'm thinking of domo, he suggested that Jigglypuff has the most potential to improve the matchup by developing a good pivot grab game. I'm not sure I agree, I seldom pivot grab with Jiggs... This is worth thinking about though. I'd be interested to hear what other good Jiggs think. How often do you guys pivot grab? I think his idea was using it to punish spot dodges.
I've been getting more kills with f-smash lately... but I think that's mostly against new players. (Talking about both MK specifically and other matchups.)
I'm beginning to think that u-tilt is one of Jigg's better moves.
It's almost 6 am and there's a tourney tomorrow. Sleep time.[/QUOTE]
Thinkaman its nice to see you.
1st. Pivot grab. Pivot grab is amazing. If you can predict a short hopped fair from wario/mk/a few other characters. The pivot grab is great. Since jigglypuff has a REALLY slow run you have to use it like a walk. It has a quick start up, and most people who play characters like marth walk backwards near the opponent to bait them. Running is perfect and you do the pivot grab which has RIDICULOUS range. Its great on snake too to throw them back into a juggle.
2. Utilt IS one of her better moves. Its a GREAT killing move on characters like Olimar/MK/Kirby/Diddy/Other jigglypuffs and you should use it to rank up damage at 0 with a up air up tilt but then don't use it again as you build damage with up air and bair and a few fairs where necessary. You can use up tilt as a solid killer.
Setups at high percent for up tilt include
1.Dair (Kinda useful if they spot dodge, but other things to do out of jigglypuffs drill that I should make a seperate list for.)
2. Spot dodge a move and up tilt. Used like a counter.
3. Air dodge behind and up tilt if they don't have a solid down smash
4. If they try to land with a move you can out prioritize (Jigglypuffs up tilt clashs with snakes up tilt. It has great priority.)
5. Find some other opening
Out of dair options:
1. Tech chase a roll with dash attack. It has quick start up and good killing power.
2. Rest
3. Another Dair
4. If they trip you can Fsmash them.
5. Start charging a smash. I learned this from warios down throw Charged fsmash mindgame. It puts lots of pressure on people and some will often panic and repeatedly side step or sheild then side step.
great guide, metaknight is broken as hell and its nice seeing a few counter-tactics. also, luigi and g&w give me the most problems right now, luigi out-prioritizes me and his up-b is just cheap, its what jiggy's rest was in melee, and g&w is all that and worse, g&w's priority makes luigi look like a joke, and i swear g&w's judgement 9's hit more often than then any other number lol. ive been playing for years, and brawl ever since it came out; one of my brother's friends came over, and had some melee experience, but never brawl. he cycled through a few characters until he came to g&w, and of course liked him the most, so he sticks with him the rest of the night. that ****er starts beatin the tar out of us, and were good, i know my account hasn't been on here for long, but were good man, lol. (my brother mains samus, and i main jiggz and mario). this new guy just starts winning, half the time with that ridiculous judgement 9s, (which for some reason are like a ****in home run bat lol). i got used to g&w and started winning, but he could still beat me now and then with those judgement 9's (and like any rookie he spammed judgement).
i would really appreciate a full guide on beating g&w and luigi, thanks
Firstly glick, i think you know much more about jiggs than i do, im just basing stuff off common sense +my limited jiggs experience(i dont use her in tourny).
I would think that a smart MK would KNOW that he cant break through pound if he knows the matchup, so why would he try to gimp you if he cant beat pound in the first place.
Secondly, i didnt contradict myself, i didnt say that MK COULD edgeguard jiggs. I said it would be dumb to try if they cant get an angle safe from pouund(if there is any), and i dont see how you could disagree.
Yes people have this habit. So you should recover with pound. Buuut, dont rely on that to happen.
Im sure neither of them are stupid, and im guessing they dont play awful people either. Just that glicks comments were kinda not...good.
