Glick
Smash Lord
Same thinkaman. I **** D3's and Martha's with jiggz even though the matchup on paper is god awful.
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Jigglypuff Counters Meta Knight: A Guide
- Thread starter Thinkaman
- Start date
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah, there are tricks to making this a much more even matchup, but even though it appears like that, a good defensive Marth will beat your here. If the Marth doesn't have 25% of his moves after your SH being F-tilt or dancing blade, with some the of the others being shield or roll away or sometimes fair, he's not abusing you properly.
I didn't say you were playing scrubs, but look at it this way.
M2K is probably the best player in the country, just because he is going by personal experience and lost to a Diddy does not make Diddy a MK counter like he says (or said the day after he lost). People just take it as fact even if he has a lack of evidence because M2K isn't very good at getting points across.
Inui says MK has no chance against an Olimar that plays "perfectly." Again, just going by personal experience and the skill level of their opponents.
You can't be a good player without theory and you can't be a good player without experience. You can't have one without the other.
You say you worked with PT to look over the advantages and disadvantages vs GW. Great, you can theorize and analyze on your own. But see, whether you know it or not you're the leader of this board. Whatever you say will most likely be taken as fact from the majority of it. Just because you are a great player doesn't mean they can do the same things you can, don't get me wrong I'm not saying degrade Jiggs because she doesn't have good players. We're still talking about a TOP level Jiggs, but at this time I think you are playing people that you are better than, even if only slightly. I say this because you consistently place well with her despite her lack of good tools in the majority of match ups. Don't feed the community false information and think they can actually win some of these match ups going in.
If you can't theorize, you can't think for yourself and you just go by what happens in tourneys or what other people say.
Panix
Smash Ace
this thread is full of win
I get where you are coming from exactly. However, what I just posted wasn't "Thinkman's win record sorted by character in list form." If it was, random characters like DDD, Wario, and Link would be higher, while Meta Knight would actually be lower! However, I know the difference between anecdotal evidence and overall trends, and try my best to seperate the two.
Olimar is a good example. If you played with the characters separately, examined them on paper, or even played the matchup a few time, you would automatically assume that Olimar counters Jigglypuff somewhat substantially. I know I certainly did! However, after playing the matchup a lot, new things were uncovered that made the matchup somewhat trivial. You can time a roll to get a free grab out of his smashes. If you are diagonal above him, you can get a free hit as long as you read what smash he will try. (Baiting the Up-B is even better) Avoiding pivot grabs when he had a blue or purple queued up will save you at higher percents. Uair pikmin off of you. Kill whites at low percents, kill blues at higher percents.
These principles and tactics that have developed against my roommate's Olimar can also apply to other Olimars. They may play differently and mask their weaknesses better, but everyone knows what I mean. The one Olimar I did play at a tourney I was able to destroy thanks to the developed matchup.
Theory vs. experience is a terrible motif, almost as bad as "religion vs. science". Experience does not destroy theories, it changes them, refines them, improves them to be closer to the truth.
The one thing discussing this has made me realize though, is that the list I posted was incredibly useless to everyone. If I'm going to sit here and throw out conclusions, those conclusions will be useless unless I supply both the theory and experience that led me there so they can be replicated. That is what this boards needs right now...
Inui
Banned via Warnings
No character can beat a perfectly camping Olimar. It's not just MK that's pretty much screwed.
cutter
Smash Champion
If no character can beat a "perfectly camping" Olimar, why aren't all the pros maining him? Why hasn't Olimar obliterated tourneys with this perfect camping strategy?
J4pu
Smash Champion
First guide I've read with comedic value
10/10 lols
10/10 lols
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Uhh... Olimar does counter Jigglypuff fairly well, but mainly if you are at the same skill level. Thinkaman, you are just a fair amount better than your opponent so you win in this very difficult matchup because it swings a far amount either way with small changes in skill.
Did you read my last couple posts? I'm saying that after enough exposure to the matchup, it tilted away from my initial impressions. I know that I'm a better player than my roommate, but that doesn't change the fact that I have learned the matchup very well. Olimar is not a character with a large number of secrets or tricks, he is very straight-forward. (Compared to say, Diddy or ICs; playing mediocre Diddy or ICs will give you virtually zero knowledge of the "real thing".)
I've learned to nair in cases where I'd typically bair. I've learned that diagonal approach is the key to getting through Olimar's camping. I've learned not to do anything that might result in getting grabbed above 100% when he has a blue or purple Pikmin next. I've learned how Jiggs can best punish his limited off-stage options to create a gimp when the chance arises.
Meanwhile, what has Olimar gained against Jigglypuff? To call aerial bluffs with Yellow Pikmin? Pivot grab short hopped bairs? Not that much really.
When I first started playing my roommate after suggesting he switch from Yoshi to Olimar at Ann Arbor, I would normally narrowly win, sometimes lose. Now that I understand fighting Olimar as Jigglypuff well, I can consistently two stock him. We both got better and had equal amounts of experience... but while Jigglypuff was able to find new approaches and ways to limit Olimar's options, Olimar was stuck with the same strategies as the first day we played the matchup: throwing out high-priority aerials and going for early kills with throws.
There just isn't much for Olimar to develop. All he can try to do is be more consistent.
I've learned to nair in cases where I'd typically bair. I've learned that diagonal approach is the key to getting through Olimar's camping. I've learned not to do anything that might result in getting grabbed above 100% when he has a blue or purple Pikmin next. I've learned how Jiggs can best punish his limited off-stage options to create a gimp when the chance arises.
Meanwhile, what has Olimar gained against Jigglypuff? To call aerial bluffs with Yellow Pikmin? Pivot grab short hopped bairs? Not that much really.
When I first started playing my roommate after suggesting he switch from Yoshi to Olimar at Ann Arbor, I would normally narrowly win, sometimes lose. Now that I understand fighting Olimar as Jigglypuff well, I can consistently two stock him. We both got better and had equal amounts of experience... but while Jigglypuff was able to find new approaches and ways to limit Olimar's options, Olimar was stuck with the same strategies as the first day we played the matchup: throwing out high-priority aerials and going for early kills with throws.
There just isn't much for Olimar to develop. All he can try to do is be more consistent.
betterthanbonds9
Smash Ace
the perfect partIf no character can beat a "perfectly camping" Olimar, why aren't all the pros maining him? Why hasn't Olimar obliterated tourneys with this perfect camping strategy?
olimar is the next chu dat ICs
Tyser
Smash Champion
Anyone who plays perfectly (they are literally psychic) can beat MK. That is all, apparently.
PND
Smash Champion
So that's why Mewtwo was axed. He was too good versus Metaknight.
Minwu
Smash Journeyman
His head has no hurtbox when he does a usmash, so it will outprioritize. Also, you'll be outcamped by eggs and your rollouts will be pivot grabbed by a decent Yoshi.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Umm... your mentioning smashes and mediocre projectiles (no offense, they are great for edgecamping but compared to Falco's laser or others, they are not great) and a well known way to punish a bad move as why Yoshi beats Jigglypuff. Not a great argument.
Glick
Smash Lord
honest to god, I have a terribly hard time gimping yoshis. I rely on nair second jump cancel on all the characters and yoshi has that gay armor that doesn't let me hit him. I rely on footstooling yoshis. When they are on their second jump they should be upairing at the same time so they don't get foot stooled, but if they forget its a gimp. shawty.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah pretty much the same. I have found there are a few times where their super armour isn't super armour but it still can only be hit through with a full fair.
M-WUZ-H3R3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,793
lol make one for every character board. (not the MK) everyone on smashboards will love you!
Yoshi's "super armor" is based on knockback. Any attack that induces knockback above a certain threshold will knock him out of his double jump. A fresh fair is the way to go. Follow up with nairs to try to prevent horizontal movement and force him downward, his horizontal momentum and decent aerial options will allow a good player to force his way back if you just rush to the edge; the egg is a slow enough move to let him steal it.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
catch yoshi as hes recovering and release grab him then footstool
*JuriHan*
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 4,699
- 3DS FC
- 1392-4901-1779
n-air does cancel the tornado.
Check 2:14
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Guvsqj6S0qA&feature=PlayList&p=DBDA08F98BC9CFA8&index=18
Check 2:14
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Guvsqj6S0qA&feature=PlayList&p=DBDA08F98BC9CFA8&index=18
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah, its been known for a while. Really a lifesaver although when I want a pimp kill, I intentionally get caught in it and rest.
Veril
Frame Savant
Amazing thread needs bumping.
Hey, lets continue the MK discussion here!
Hey, lets continue the MK discussion here!
Metatitan
Smash Master
quite the bumping uve been doing veril ^^
Veril
Frame Savant
Half of this page is/was closed threads. I don't even have words for how f***ing stupid that is. The really good threads (that are still relevant) are buried under a mountain of garbage and I'm trying to dig them out.
wtf, thx for bumping
first day at home after holiday and seeing such an amazing thread
heared yesterday at a german smash boards about thinkamans win at a tourney
have read all the 10 sites, nice thread, think it helped me a lot (especially because i often tried to fight against MKs with shieldgrabs^^)
have to try the things written in this thread
and ... i hate the MU olimar, and i think its one of jiggs worst, same with luigi ... too much kill power^^
first day at home after holiday and seeing such an amazing thread
heared yesterday at a german smash boards about thinkamans win at a tourney
have read all the 10 sites, nice thread, think it helped me a lot (especially because i often tried to fight against MKs with shieldgrabs^^)
have to try the things written in this thread
and ... i hate the MU olimar, and i think its one of jiggs worst, same with luigi ... too much kill power^^
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
i hate this title so much
Airgemini
Chansey
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 9,410
- 3DS FC
- 2406-5625-4787
I hate people who post stuff that contributes nothing to the thread
Any posts after this that doesn't have to do with Jigglypuff/Metaknight in Brawl competitively, will be infracted.
Any posts after this that doesn't have to do with Jigglypuff/Metaknight in Brawl competitively, will be infracted.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
hes hard to rest,
hes hard to gimp
u cant use rollout
hes twice as fast as u
he can glide
he can spam
not a counter
next
hes hard to gimp
u cant use rollout
hes twice as fast as u
he can glide
he can spam
not a counter
next
*JuriHan*
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 4,699
- 3DS FC
- 1392-4901-1779
yes and lets not forget he only needs 115% to KO Puff with a d-smash centerstage
Veril
Frame Savant
lolno. Rest him out of the nado or drill rest. Not as hard to do as it looks on paper. Rest KOs him nicely to.
Its MK. We're hard to gimp as well.
On the ground. He's actually slower in the air.
So what?
Its brawl... also... so what? Nado spam isn't effective on us.
rinoH
Smash Lord
he has higher priority beat that =) jk pound spam him lulz
Glick
Smash Lord
your recovery is totally safe. just pounding the ledge will give him like 30 damage just trying to knock you off of it before he just uses nado to suck you off the ledge.
Metatitan
Smash Master
i dont think a good mk would let u pound him 3 times in a row lol
Glick
Smash Lord
...No. They will continue to try to beat your pound recovery offstage since their mk. But they will eat pounds extended hitbox everytime.
It works. MKs get very impatient unless you are vrsing one like bowyer.
They will run right off since they are rarely challenged in the air.
It works. MKs get very impatient unless you are vrsing one like bowyer.
They will run right off since they are rarely challenged in the air.
Metatitan
Smash Master
what mks are u facing exactly?
no good mk is gonna even try to consistently gimp a jiggs, it wont happen. if ur facing a mk that is trying to do that, the mk obviously isnt very good
no good mk is gonna even try to consistently gimp a jiggs, it wont happen. if ur facing a mk that is trying to do that, the mk obviously isnt very good
D
Deleted member
Guest
I love glick <3
Its like 60-40 i think, jigglypuff actually kills equally to meta knight imo in this matchup, and jiggs can sorta float around waiting for openings while being relativly safe.
No MK would use tornado on jiggs in rest percents.
MK wins from superior range and much better options when jiggs is above or below him.
HiddenBowser
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3,511
MK vs Jiggs matchup:
Jiggs and MK kinda jump around waiting for openings.
If MK goes at Jiggs, Jiggs pounds MK and wins.
If Jiggs goes at MK with pound because he thought MK was gonna go at him, he wiffs and has a decent chance of getting poked with a fair.
MK pokes Jiggs much more but has difficulty following **** up.
Jiggs goes on a rampage and all of a sudden connects a bunch of hits together and puts on a bunch of percent at once.
Off stage, Jiggs can sometimes make it annoying to get back, and if a weak fair connects, they follow it up with a strong hit.
If MK hits Jiggs out, the MK tries to edge guard and inevitably fails all attempts because Jiggs can chill out there until it's safe to come back. Then Jiggs makes it to the edge.
Jiggs has to rest MK shortly after he reaches 65%. Best way is to wait for a small shield then sh dair then, shield poking at the end, leading to a rest... If you hit starting early in the dair, the MK can make it annoying and make you chase the way he DI's if you want to connect a rest.
All in all, idk, like a 60-40 or 65-35 MK.
Jiggs and MK kinda jump around waiting for openings.
If MK goes at Jiggs, Jiggs pounds MK and wins.
If Jiggs goes at MK with pound because he thought MK was gonna go at him, he wiffs and has a decent chance of getting poked with a fair.
MK pokes Jiggs much more but has difficulty following **** up.
Jiggs goes on a rampage and all of a sudden connects a bunch of hits together and puts on a bunch of percent at once.
Off stage, Jiggs can sometimes make it annoying to get back, and if a weak fair connects, they follow it up with a strong hit.
If MK hits Jiggs out, the MK tries to edge guard and inevitably fails all attempts because Jiggs can chill out there until it's safe to come back. Then Jiggs makes it to the edge.
Jiggs has to rest MK shortly after he reaches 65%. Best way is to wait for a small shield then sh dair then, shield poking at the end, leading to a rest... If you hit starting early in the dair, the MK can make it annoying and make you chase the way he DI's if you want to connect a rest.
All in all, idk, like a 60-40 or 65-35 MK.
Veril
Frame Savant
Why is Glick always the target of stupid comments like this. He's better with Jiggs than you or Meta, and he's active in NYC tourney scene. In other words stfu.
MK's often use nado on Jiggs in rest % because either generally people don't know that fact and even if they do, its Jiggs so who gives a s*** right? Nado is like crack to them.
The final statement is about as accurate as most blanket statements (with nothing given to support them) are.