Marth Social Thread

[Deathconsciousness]

marth is literally woat thats why i main him

 

[Ninjamo]

Any notable changes with 2.6 Marth? He feels less clunky than in 2.5, but I'm not certain.

 

[SpiderMad]

I loved Marth in 2.5 but in 2.6 he feels worse. I also think his SHDF might be harder because of the supposed landing detection change that made Fox's SHDL apparently harder

 

[Sixth-Sense]

i think marth feels a lot smoother and not so sliperry, although he still needs some work

Do any of you guys think marth needs something else? i know lots of the top-tier cast were mostly just given subtle buffs (excluding of course fox, falco, and puff) but i just feel like marth needs something, although i guess i would just like an animation change to make it look cooler/fresher. I would really like a change to downsmash, it just seems so meh, the animation is boring and the move itself is useless except for those weird one-time situations, or to CC as well, but even then it's just a bad move to me, moreso than up-smash, at least up-smash now has a better hitbox and with the slight down-air buff it works well in conjunction as a semi-reliable finisher

but down-smash? nothing

what do you guys say?

 

[Shaya]

He needs to become a well rounded character. His nair, bair and uair don't really make sense. They're incomplete moves. Poorly designed (in the "opposite of Roy" type of way) in melee and polished in Brawl. Basically all his kill moves don't kill untippered until 200%+, and he has no way to combo ANYONE IN THE GAME after 60-80%. As a character who's meant to apply pressure and be safe on shield (but needs to actually get to those favourable positions in the first place: ITS HARD), he gets absurdly ravaged by shields, gets little out of grabs at higher percent (where everyone is wanting to shield as it is).

He's a hot/cold character in a game which is full of HOT HOT HOT characters by design ("Oh, Falco still beats it right? better give it MORE BUFFS).

 

[Ninjamo]

I'm going from Melee Marth here, but it his d tilt and fair seem to have a longer cooldown. Also, his non-tipped attacks have way less knockback. He still just feels different from Melee too. I realize this is probably because of the Brawl engine, though.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Lol Marth can 0-death like anyone in the game. Gets little out of grabs at higher percent? Marth's whole game revolves around grabs and tech chasing against a lot of characters. It sounds like you need to practice your spacing and learn to tipper every move. Marth is still boss as hell there just aren't nearly as many good Marth mains in PM as in melee. I'm not too great of a marth player but I KNOW that Marth is still viable as he ever was in melee.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Marth is a nice deal worse in PM overall than melee but his design is still solid I think. He does have to worker harder for the kills overall in this game though.

 

[CyberZixx]

Where my Marths at?

 

[SpiderMad]

Right here, did you have an idea for a tutorial or something? I think people were talking a lot about Marth and DK in the Social or Tier list speculation thread (after Sethlon lost to SB).

 

[CyberZixx]

A tutorial? What gave you that impression, do you think I am qualified to write that? I just wanted to see if people still came here and hopefully get people talking again. I am always down to talk Marth.

 

[BTmoney]

Marth is fine, Top 10, probably 8th ish.
He has some questionable design traits, and some useless moves like shield breaker, usmash and dsmash

His tipper is the same as it was in melee, same with the number of active frames for the hitboxes, swing speed, cool down and etc. Dair has less landing lag which is warrented and possibly some other tweaks. I consider the new up B to be a buff since he retains much more mobility and falls in special fall slower which helps him vs being edge hogged by a roll.

Mostly he "looks" and sounds different. He's pretty much the same and there shouldn't be any tangible issue. His fair and dtilt didn't get any worse

 

[SpiderMad]

A tutorial? What gave you that impression, do you think I am qualified to write that? I just wanted to see if people still came here and hopefully get people talking again. I am always down to talk Marth.

I'm sure you could make a tutorial about something, and anything helps people with the void of videos available. I also meant if you had an idea I could try making a video since that's what I've been up to lately besides playing Third Strike

 

[SpiderMad]

and some useless moves like shield breaker, usmash and dsmash

I consider the new up B to be a buff since he retains much more mobility and falls in special fall slower which helps him vs being edge hogged by a roll.

Not even close. I actually wonder if those moves are completely the same as Melee's though, but I think SB confirmed Up-smash was. Not that Shield breaker needs to be made any better (I THOUGHT I remember hearing it had slightly more shield damage but I'm most likely mistaken). http://smashboards.com/threads/neutral-b-edgeguard-vs-fsmash-edgeguard.336410/#post-15518181

Roll also occupies the ledge for less frames

Oh yeah I forgot I was going to edit this in, oops

 

[CyberZixx]

How everyone feel about the stage list for Marth in PM? I for one think it is far less advantageous for Marth than the melee stage list but not without workarounds. We still have Yoshi's story and Fountain to work with. As well as Battlefield (with slightly less abusive-able platforms) and FD. When it comes to new stages I think the only real strong Marth stage is WarioWare. The pokemon stadiums stages can work for us too.

While that is more good stages than melee he has gain more bad stages than good ones I think. Now there is Dreamland, Skyloft, Rumble Falls, Yoshi's Island, Norfair, Dracula's Castle, Metal Cavern.

Smashville and Halbard seems in between, I am not sure about Greenhill zone or Castle Siege. I think SSE: Jungle could be pretty good for Marth but I need more experience on it.

What this means is that in a best 2 out of three set you can always hard counter pick Marth where in melee you could not. Plus his two best stages can be striked always in Yoshi's and FoD giving him not as strong a counter pick.

Do you agree with my stage assessments, think I am crazy for thinking a certain stage is bad? I want to get discussion on this going.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I feel that Marth's good stages are more match up dependent than before. Yoshi's for example is now basically neutral against anyone with decent range (see e.g. Ike who's FSmash destroys the lower platforms and who is not phased about edgeguarding along the sloping edges).

FoD is still generally good, but against characters who control space, it can be a bit tedious. When the lower platforms have descended, and you're playing against a Din's fire happy Zelda (read any Zelda), you have three options. 1. Stall until the platforms come back. 2. try to get around the Din's fires planted between you and get grabbed. 3. try to get around the Din's fires planted between you and get a foot to the face. On the topic of space controlling characters, can someone confirm/deny that we can still trigger Snake's mines with the tip of FSmash and not get hit ala brawl?

I like Green Hill better than Smashville at least because the platform is very rarely a recovery option. Combine that with nice flat ledges, and the wall, you should be able to predict 90% of recoveries from below the ledge and edge-guard with dtilt / fmash / shffl dair / jab (for spacies). Also don't forget about Marth's edge hog game with his drop down bairs. Neutral game is also good, because in general, if a character can easily reach the platform, it's not a safe place for them to be against Marth.

Warioware is interesting. The short sides are amazing, especially if you can trick your opponent into DIing the wrong way. However, if they survive, they can recover high or low, making your job more difficult (especially with the amazing recoveries of the brawl characters). Middle of the stage can facilitate spacie chaingrabs, and the platforms can be poked through, although they are a bit longer than battlefield's, so a bit of tech-reading is necessary. If they escape to the top platform, go to the middle platform and repeat. Defensively, this is a bad stage, but since Marth's recovery is still one of the worst in the game, I'd take ruining both player's defensive options rather than improving them.

Jungle 2.5 was terrible for Marth. I haven't played Jungle 2.6 enough to have a solid opinion, but the top most ledges create extra recovery opportunities for everyone but Marth (since his landing lag is so long, you could brew a cup of tea before punishing it), which means more difficult edge-guards.

I feel battlefield is maybe the only stage that is as good for Marth as it was in Melee, since we can still u-throw -> utilt 90% of the cast on the platforms at low percent, and recovering to the platforms means that most characters will have to travel over Marth to get to them, allowing for easy hits. Also, without light shielding (at the moment), the 'Marth killer' is gone, so we can recover to the sloped edge of battlefield, maybe poke an opponent through the stage and still sweet-spot the ledge.

As for the other stages mentioned. I hate Dracula's (I have a friend who plays Ike who takes me there every time we play) and I hate Metal Cavern apart from the fact that ledge teching the right side below the stage is really easy. Norfair becomes get center stage or lose, because if you get hit from a side platform, you can't recover. However, if people are on the side platform, you can poke from below (especially when the stage contracts).

I think that in 2/3 sets, Marth is a bit disadvantaged by stages, but if you know the matchup, then you should be able to strike accordingly and at least bring their stage to one which isn't terrible and try for an early gimp. Assuming fist stage is struck from the bottom 7 stages, you can always strike dreamland, Smashville and a matchup based bad stage, meaning that you go into the first match feeling pretty good about the stage. Again, during your pick, if Yoshi's and FoD are struck, we still have battlefield and FD, as well as Warioware and Green Hill (if you're that way inclined). You should be able to get a stage which is at least above neutral and in the best case outright favorable. I think that when it comes to PM stage selection, character match-up is a far more important factor than a notion of "This stage is a good Marth stage, thus I will go to it."

I'd love to hear opinions on the newer stages. I'm not too familiar with most of the stages I haven't mentioned, so any insight would be much appreciated.

 

[CyberZixx]

I see where you are coming from and it makes sense. In melee Marth out ranged any other character and could play his zoning game with all of them. Now his range is not so exceptional nor is his movement. So we need to be more thoughtful on what stages we pick to ensure we have stage advantage as is it not as cut and dry as in melee.

I still like the smaller stages versus characters that can deal with his range (ike, dk, ZSS, Link) and those that camp him (Snake, Ivy, Zelda) because with one hit you are in full control as there is nowhere for them to escape on stage. Just neutral becomes more difficult.

The point about the higher ledges on Warioware and SSE: jungle hurting Marth's edgegame are very true. I never thought of it. Maybe taking a character like Snake or Pit, who could use them well is not great even if they die off the sides easily. For characters with a more limited recovery like DK or Ganon it should be a good counter pick.

I like SSE: Jungle 2.6 in theory because of the platform in the middle being so easy to cover. Uptilt and Upair cover the entire thing with ease and you can jump up after a missed tech and cover all options with a grab if you are good at reacting to a behind roll. The higher platforms are harder to cover for sure and help certain character recover but they are close enough that you can combo with them from the lower plats. I had not played on this stages vs people so it's just theory for now. Either way it's no longer the hot garbage for Marth it was in 2.5b which is nice.

Green hill is one I need to play on more but agree that is holds promise. I wrote off battlefield and worse for Marth than the melee one because the threat of a tipper is not a strong (he can't hit all standing character with fsmash). You make good point though and I will consider it more for sure.

 

[UMR | donmk]

For me, Marth counter-picks are all about your personal philosophy. I personally am loss adverse. I'd prefer to make the neutral game more even, because Marth's punish game is good enough on almost every stage. Admittedly on smaller stages, you get rewards much earlier, but one mistake can mean you die. However, there is nothing wrong with trying to push Marth's already great offensive advantage by going to a smaller stage and going for hard reads or early gimps. It depends on your play style and also on your opponent's style. If your opponent loves to camp you out with projectiles and the such, then smaller stages are obviously going to work to your advantage. If they prefer a rush down style, I prefer slightly larger stages which improve your DD/wavedash game and allow you to punish if they go in deep. I think that Marth is one of the more reactive characters in the game, since his game is built around hard reads, and punishing whiffed moves.

One things that's been overlooked is his grab. Although Marth no longer has the longest non-tether grab in the game, it is still significantly large, and his JC'd grab from the start of dash goes a long way. Pivot grab length has been described as "magnet hands". If you love grabs, then small stages are even better, but of course you're sacrificing your defensive game because grab range is still shorter than sword range, so you're taking a risk whenever you go in. Of course, the reward for a successful grab changes depending on character, but the ability to negate the knock-back of a move when you successfully grab is sometimes invaluable.

And although both Marth's range and movement are no longer 'amazing', I can't think of a character who is better when you consider both at once. Character's that out range him are either slow (Ike, DDD) or easily gimped (ZSS, Link), and characters that are faster than him generally fall to his range. As long as you play to your strengths, you should be fine. Campy characters pose more of a problem, but I don't really mind the Ivy matchup. If you force Ivy to approach, you get the upper hand. Drop down bairs kill any tether if you can time them. And Ivy is deceptively light, so you can get really good results for spacing well.

One interesting note is in the Ike matchup. Smaller stages are good because JC quick-draw covers a lot of Marth's options, so you cant let him do that too much. Despite what I said in my previous post, I love Yoshi's against him, because the low floor means that the wall jump recovery is less viable, so dtilt becomes a gimping move, and an outright kill move at higher percents. It also negates his quick-draw, and if you can maintain center stage, then you can put a lot of pressure on with DD/wavedash and punish.

 

[CyberZixx]

In melee when my back is to the edge and I grab someone I always dthrow as the angle is better for gimping. I have been thinking in PM that may not be so cut and dry. I think bthrow on characters who are forced to recover low may be good such as Ivy and ZSS. It will bop them them up for a potential followup where dthrow would just make them harder to hit.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I also like b-throw a lot more in PM than in melee. For me, it's a really good move to confuse the opponent's DI. If you continuously d-throw and people are expecting it, then they will generally DI up or up and away. If you suddenly use b-throw, then DIing up tends to put them in tipper range. Of course, this is very dependent on percentage. I'll admit that I never thought about tether recoveries when throwing and I generally d-throw either way, but I can see b-throw being really useful in that situation. I'm not sure what the stun is like from the d-throw, but I wonder when it is possible for ZSS to down-b out of the throw, which gives her a lot more options. If only I knew someone who played ZSS, I could go test it...

Also, I still have a bit of trouble with the Zelda match up, especially after I lose my first stock and Zelda just fireball camps me. Or after Zelda loses her stock, and you actually have to approach during her invincibility, otherwise you end up with a wall of fire between you and her. I find myself just avoiding everything until she makes a mistake, but at a high level of play, you really can't rely on that. It's not so bad when Marth picks stage, because a stage with a high platform in the middle is a really good way to escape (until you realize you're now above Zelda with Marth), but on Zelda's pick, she can go to FD or Smashville, which makes escaping really hard. Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't have any experience versus Zelda but would playing a mid ranged poking game with her and play neutral the same way I do versus Peach. Meaning I would stay at tipper distance and poke with dtilt until I can get myself a grab. Which should lead into a nice combo and she lacks the nair of peach or is more prone to be juggled.

if you get hit with a down smash or something are knocked away is when things would get tricky. In that case I would play patient and try to inch closer with fairs (which should swat away dins fire) and close the distance with burst movement when she leave a hole in her game. Maybe by poorly angleing a din's fire or something. Goal would be to get into that range where she can't do much to you.

 

[UMR | donmk]

Staying in tipper range is fine in theory, but when one of you dies, it becomes a bit more difficult to close the distance. SHFFL fairs can work against the fireballs, but even a small spacing error can mean a Zelda fair to the face, which is not fun to deal with. But maybe I'm over-complicating things. Even if Zelda can annoy Marth across the stage, as long as we can keep within ~1.5 sword lengths, we should be putting enough pressure to make the Zelda approach us, which is a nice situation to be in.

Looks like I'll have to try some things out the next time I'm up against a Zelda

 

[Nemiak temp]

Stay on top of her. Honestly you hardly need to space perfectly against her just swat away her dins fire then move in with fairs/nairs or grab/fthrow regrab fsmash at the ledge. She's annoying but once you figure out the matchup it's not too hard for Marth

 

[UMR | donmk]

Stay on top of her. Honestly you hardly need to space perfectly against her just swat away her dins fire then move in with fairs/nairs or grab/fthrow regrab fsmash at the ledge. She's annoying but once you figure out the matchup it's not too hard for Marth

Since my last post, I've played a few matches against a Zelda, and I've come to agree with this completely. I was always worried about tipper lengths and where Zelda's fair would reach, but as long as you stay relatively close and get one or two good reads, you can easily take a stock. I think my previous problems stemmed from me under-utilizing my fairs as a defensive option. So yeah, annoying but not terrible I think sums it up really well.

Also counter can be really useful in that match-up as a mix up option. I used to be really anti-counter, but with the speed at which it comes out, I'm growing more and more fond of it.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Since my last post, I've played a few matches against a Zelda, and I've come to agree with this completely. I was always worried about tipper lengths and where Zelda's fair would reach, but as long as you stay relatively close and get one or two good reads, you can easily take a stock. I think my previous problems stemmed from me under-utilizing my fairs as a defensive option. So yeah, annoying but not terrible I think sums it up really well.

Also counter can be really useful in that match-up as a mix up option. I used to be really anti-counter, but with the speed at which it comes out, I'm growing more and more fond of it.

Yeah counter is kind of under utilised. It can be baited into a punish but as long as you're not too predictable it's a great move to break out of bull****.

 

[UMR | donmk]

In my opinion, it is one of Marth's best options when people jump out at you from the ledge as long as you can predict pretty well when they're going to try to hit you. Against some Ikes who love to jump out and fair you, it has saved me so many times. But as you say, you can't always go to it, because the wait and punish is always an option, and it hurts a lot. Being consistently unpredictable is hard, especially when you're trying to recover with a very linear recovery.

 

[CyberZixx]

I am not a fan of Counter because it is a big commitment for little reward in most situations. If you read them and try to punish with counter and are wrong you can get punished hard. Even if it does hit it just resets neutral and you can't follow up from it. There are much better punish options. I only like it to cover certain recoverys such as spacie up b. It works ok vs ike too but i'd rather time a dair.

On the plus side it super fun to land and seems to get into the opponents head as they seems to feel you are in there with counter. In my experience anyways. Still, potential mindgames and flash are not worth it. At least in brawl it has unique knock back and you can actually kill with it which is awesome.

 

[UMR | donmk]

Counter is really situational, but you don't use it to push your advantage or for hard reads, only where you're in a lot of trouble. Also, I find it puts you in a slightly advantageous position in most situations, because it will force opponent to tech, which you have a chance of reading.

 

[CyberZixx]

If im getting pressured or something I still don`t like counter. I`d ideally move out of that situation entirely. Like if a falcon is nairing me i`d wavedash away or shield punish poorly spaced ones. Counter don`t seem worth it.

 

[UMR | donmk]

If you're already in the air, then movement becomes less viable as a way of avoiding anything. Counter really isn't for use in neutral or even in slight disadvantage. It's for the "Oh no I'm getting combo'd to death" situations where you maybe only have a really small window of action between each hit. Also, as mentioned before, if for some reason a character commits to off stage edge guarding, it's not impossible to predict what they will do for the most part and a lot of the time counter is a very good option. the issue that a lot of people (and indeed me in the past) had was that counter needs to be a surprise, so it's not something you can work on and practice and make consistent. The only thing you can do is recognize where counter is viable, and also recognize that each time you use it in a match, it gets less viable for that situation, and probably in the match overall.

 

[DarkFlame]

I'm not sure if Marth will be my main in this one. He was my main in Brawl because I was so familiar with his style, kicked a couple of my friends' butts pretty easily with him, even went undefeated in a tournament, boy, was that a surprise for me! I usually think I just suck at video games, honestly! But, as for Project M, the only real problem I can find with him is how his Dancing Blade is no longer using B, it's now back to just using A, I was not good in Melee with that, and I'm not good here. I loved Brawl where it came out faster, I felt, and I could just mash B, so I would like to see a version of Project M where people can now do either one and still do very well with the Dancing Blade. As for Shield Breaker, I'm used to the stab, but I think I should be able to go back to the slash that it is here and in Melee, but it'll take a little time.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I also main mained Marth in brawl, but I quickly realized why the PMBR decided to restore all of Marth to Melee version and discard 99% of brawl changes. Don't forget that Marth is by no means bad in Project M. We lost a few stages that used to be absolutely in our advantage (think Yoshi Story Melee, which now is very bad when playing against certain characters) and a few new match ups screw us up, but overall, Marth's game style works. It's just a different style from Brawl.

As for Dancing Blade, having the brawl version would be too good. It was almost inescapable in brawl, and now we have actual hit stun, so it would be a move that comes out relatively quickly, does 25% damage and would send the opponent in one of three directions. Add to that the fact that third hit down is a meteor, and it becomes deadly on the ledge.

Your feelings about mashing B are correct, P:M dancing blade has much stricter timing requirements than Brawl. However, could you clarify not being able to use B? I generally use B for dancing blade and have no problem getting all 4 hits out. It might be a timing issue, or maybe I've misunderstood.

 

[DMG]

Vs what characters is YI Melee a bad idea as Marth? I'm real curious about that, because most people lament that stage against Marth.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I find that against Ike it's not great. Really that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. I also know that if you're going against a Zelda, you have to space well because one fair will kill you if you're not careful, but it is by no means a bad stage for the match-up. I agree that in general it is a fantastic Marth stage, but I've always argued that in PM stages are not as cut and dry as Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Vs what characters is YI Melee a bad idea as Marth? I'm real curious about that, because most people lament that stage against Marth.

probably none. CP marth = snap pick DL64. simple stuff.

 

[CyberZixx]

probably none. CP marth = snap pick DL64. simple stuff.

DL64 is hardly the ideal Marth choice and his worst melee stage but I prefer it to some of the stages in PM. I'd rather play on it then Rumble Falls and Skyloft for instance.

 

[Deleted member]

as an experienced player, i can rely on myself to outsmart most of my opponents, so picking non-neutral stages pays off pretty hard. were that not the case for me personally, i'd probably agree with you.

 

[himemiya]

What about warioware? A simple f-throw->f-smash (with bad di) can kill early. looooool

 

[CyberZixx]

The thing about that is the bad DI part. I don't like to relie on strageties that only work on bad DI. That said there are more characters in PM subseptible to fthrow into follow up than in melee so it has it uses. WW is sick for Marth in general because he has a much harder time gimping the cast as a whole in this game so the small sides are super nice.

 

[UMR | donmk]

I know that personally, when I counterpick I try to look for a stage that the opposing player will dislike, before considering a Marth favourable stage. That being said, my default option is always battlefield, purely because that's where I feel most comfortable. PM has a lot of characters with a lot of stages, so it gets difficult to say "I'm playing Marth, therefore I shall pick stage X", because almost every stage has at least one character that prefers that stage just as much, if not more, than Marth. If you're confident in your skill ala Umbreon, I have no doubt that you can outsmart anyone, anywhere at anytime. I know for a fact that I'm not that good, so I need to look into every match up on every stage, otherwise I feel I've put myself in a sub-optimal position.

I too am not a fan of relying on bad DI, but if your opponent is consistently doing it (i.e. if you notice them do it during the first match) then counterpicking Wario Ware because of their bad DI is not a bad idea. There is a chance that they will correct it in the second match, but even if they do, you have platforms and a flat base, not exactly a terrible Marth stage. Yoshi's Island melee is also not a bad option if the opponent doesn't DI well, because one grab anywhere on the base platform can lead to an f-smash on the edge, and if they try to avoid your range on the base platform by going up, you can cover the entire platform with good positioning and good attack choice (generally one of u-tilit or fsmash). The great thing about both these stages is they mitigate one of Marth's major weaknesses: his recovery. If one solid hit sends you to the blast zone (even with good DI) then both Character's recoveries are useless, so you can remove that part of the opponent's game. My experience with PM is that a lot of characters have very good recoveries, so this can be a major advantage.

What I'm interested to hear, is what stages people hate to play on. I for one hate Norfair. If you're not centimeter perfect, you end up dead, because recovering to the side platforms is almost never an option, and the blast zones are huge, so opponents with good recoveries are fine. It's not an impossible stage, but it's a frustrating one.