KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
nevermind.
I agree with everything everyone said.
I agree with everything everyone said.
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Mahone, that m2k vs mango on dreamland vid you mentioned is more of an argument why the match-up is even, rather than any side having an advantage. Sure, Mango couldn't get in, but M2k couldn't approach safely. If he maintained the spaced aerials, it would be a stalemate, not a win for Marth lol.
Why is it obvious that it's a bad match-up? The only thing "seemingly" obvious is range, but even then you can't consider range as just absolute range (range of the move without movement of the character). The corrected range (range + mobility, i.e. how far the move's hitboxes can actually cover in a certain amount of time) is more accurate. Puff hardly loses in that department.
This is the common, naive view of the match-up. You picture in your head this vision of a Marth on a vast, flat plane retreating with Fairs which ought, by all common sense, be unapproachable. The Puff struggles to chase, but alas cannot catch up. The problem is, where is Marth retreating to? The battles take place on finite (and usually small) islands with death surrounding the sides. Every retreat is generally putting yourself in a worse position. At some point, you run out of stage. Your options become limited. The occasional ftilt or fsmash is often what the Puff wants you to do, and baits it liberally, since the fsmash is especially easy to punish. And what is Puff doing getting hit with an inside Fair? I thought your Marth was spacing correctly, and thus should be getting tippers? If Puff got that close before getting hit, Marth would have gotten an aerial in the face already.
Well I apologize, I didn't realize it was hurtful. My point is his defense, contrary to (from what I've seen) popular belief, has plenty of holes in it, and if not holes, then loss in stage control. If you can't keep Puff out, I find it hard pressed to say Marth has a good advantage, since his offense tends to be disastrous against Puff. Slight at best (55:45), but due to range only since he loses most things that makes him a such a lethal character (gimps, combos, chaingrabs) against the rest of the cast. Even his range (SHFFL-wise) is not really better due to less aerial mobility.i dont think i brought up that vid, someone else did.
i guess its obvious to me but i shouldnt of written that, i was just frustrated, that statement is pretty meaningless.
saying it's naive is unnecessary, i don't know why you wrote that, its just plain hurtful, so i guess ill be hurtful...
I think YOUR view is naive, cuz apparently on this forum people can't understand casual language that humans use to interact... When i say retreating fair all day i am over exaggerating (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=overexaggerating), you don't have to point out that the stage ends, i understand that.
The puff is getting hit with an inside fair, because melee is a game where you need both offense and defense, so even though i over exaggerated (see definiton above) about his good defense, i was not saying he never takes the offensive.
i dont WANT the marth to ftilt i just have to try to predict it so that i can mabye dodge it and get a fair in, but it is very hard to punish
speaks the truthWith the way that most people suggest to play the matchup, Marth gets 1 hit at a time. Maybe like 2 at low percents. He pretty much never combos into a kill move with a safe spacing move, either. (I know side b to utilt works sometimes, but it doesn't kill at super low percent and side b isn't completely safe.) He rarely, if ever, will get to edgeguard jiggs.
Jiggs' safe spacing move, bair, will often combo into itself. If marth gets knocked off the stage at all there's a good chance he dies, regardless of percent. Survival DI offstage will lead to more bairs, and not survival DI will lead to him getting hit into positions where Jiggs has a big advantage in edgeguarding him due to ledge invincibility. Also, anytime Marth has to use his up B to recover, Jiggs has a near-guaranteed edgeguard on him from doing high edgestall -> force Marth onstage -> rest. (or just ledgehop bair into repeat the process, if Jiggs is too high percent to survive the respawn attack).
So, Jiggs has a fairly big advantage in the punishment game, both in terms of getting more damage on average from an opening/mistake, and in terms of getting KOs.
I don't think Marth's neutral game better than Jiggs' by enough to swing the matchup in his favor, or bring it up to even. Not that Jiggs really ***** Marth, but it's in Jiggs' favor.
you know, this makes alot of sense.Do those of you who think Marth has the advantage or that it's even think this despite how lopsided the punishment in the matchup is?
With the way that most people suggest to play the matchup, Marth gets 1 hit at a time. Maybe like 2 at low percents. He pretty much never combos into a kill move with a safe spacing move, either. (I know side b to utilt works sometimes, but it doesn't kill at super low percent and side b isn't completely safe.) He rarely, if ever, will get to edgeguard jiggs.
Jiggs' safe spacing move, bair, will often combo into itself. If marth gets knocked off the stage at all there's a good chance he dies, regardless of percent. Survival DI offstage will lead to more bairs, and not survival DI will lead to him getting hit into positions where Jiggs has a big advantage in edgeguarding him due to ledge invincibility. Also, anytime Marth has to use his up B to recover, Jiggs has a near-guaranteed edgeguard on him from doing high edgestall -> force Marth onstage -> rest. (or just ledgehop bair into repeat the process, if Jiggs is too high percent to survive the respawn attack).
So, Jiggs has a fairly big advantage in the punishment game, both in terms of getting more damage on average from an opening/mistake, and in terms of getting KOs.
I don't think Marth's neutral game better than Jiggs' by enough to swing the matchup in his favor, or bring it up to even. Not that Jiggs really ***** Marth, but it's in Jiggs' favor.
Ya, you're right, i'll even settle for 50:50, but the reason that i am arguing so much and am so angry is because right now jiggs has a +1 advantage!!!Well I apologize, I didn't realize it was hurtful. My point is his defense, contrary to (from what I've seen) popular belief, has plenty of holes in it, and if not holes, then loss in stage control. If you can't keep Puff out, I find it hard pressed to say Marth has a good advantage, since his offense tends to be disastrous against Puff. Slight at best (55:45), but due to range only since he loses most things that makes him a such a lethal character (gimps, combos, chaingrabs) against the rest of the cast. Even his range (SHFFL-wise) is not really better due to less aerial mobility.
On a side note, in the long run, I think this match-up will end up being 50:50. Once all the fervor about Puff has died down.
I must say that people won't be able to take an argument seriously when you make statements like "marth is forced to commit to a laggy move". Why can't he be forced to commit to a, you know, non laggy move? Marth's nair kinda autocancels while having great range, last I checked. This can be amazing for baiting seeing as you can fastfall it, and catch the jiggs with a quick uptilt, tap a, fair, fmash, or whatever afterwards.Jiggs counters retreat fair by baiting retreat fair and then proceeding to occupy the space Marth just vacated. Repeat until Marth is now near the ledge and force him to shield or roll or commit to a laggy move (ftilt, fair) and proceed to bair/back throw off stage and perform near-guaranteed edgeguard (only thing Marth can counter bthrow off stage with is a perfectly timed jump back fair that doesn't trade with jiggs bair, this also requires jiggs to go for an immediate bair and not bait this as well).
Gustav summed up the matchup completely.
otg doesnt play puff, at least that I kno of. I dont think he would get much outta that experience.otg play zghetto. Until that day, stfu.
see i can do it too.
gtfo with youre ******** ad hominems
You should just ask me to clarify, instead of assuming I don't know what I'm talking about. Nair is beaten directly, head on, by a jiggs bair to Marth's face (full hop bair I believe). Same concept as how spacies will be able to space their own back airs against Marth nair.I must say that people won't be able to take an argument seriously when you make statements like "marth is forced to commit to a laggy move". Why can't he be forced to commit to a, you know, non laggy move? Marth's nair kinda autocancels while having great range, last I checked. This can be amazing for baiting seeing as you can fastfall it, and catch the jiggs with a quick uptilt, tap a, fair, fmash, or whatever afterwards.
I've played Hbox for over an hour. Marth in shield is actually extremely close to being straight up dead. Jiggs can bair Marth's shield and get out of range before Marth fair OOS will hit (which means if Marth tries it, he will whiff and be met immediately by another jiggs bair. That goes for WD forward OOS, as well. If you want to WD back or roll backward OOS, that is safe, except thats a victory for Jiggs as you are now closer to the edge and will be more easily baited with nowhere to go behind you. Jiggs can fair -> duck right in front of you and pressure you that way. Jiggs can also fake to bair your shield and "tomahawk" aka force shield with the threat of a move and then she can slip in behind you with a falling up air -> up tilt for a potential rest. She could also back throw at this point. This is extremely problematic because if you roll backwards (into jiggs) you are set up to be bair'd and if you roll inward (very laggy roll for marth) Jiggs will have time to further pressure you. And again, unless this is happening in the dead center of the stage, you are unlikely to be able to get the full length of both your roll options without running into a ledge first, which would mean you are lagging the same for a shorter roll. Heavily punishable.Also, as anyone who's watched hbox knows, jiggs often pressures with the whole high bair low bair ordeal. Depending on the spacing, marth can crouch and punish jiggs. Last thing I must say... even if marth is forced to shield, you're acting like shielding is the equivalent of death against jiggs? You're completely free to jump/wavedash out of shield at any time. As long as you're not an idiot and decide to shield grab (which any good player will bait), then you can just wait until jiggs bairs you shield to react with any OoS option. Of course, a smart jiggs can just empty SH into grab you bait a fair OoS, etc, but unless marth is at moderately high %, jiggs fthrow honestly doesn't have enough knockback to get marth into that great of an edgeguarding position.
Trust me, Marth doesn't have to have his heels hanging off the edge of the stage to be considered "backed down" to the ledge. Any range where jiggs could potential string bairs into your death qualifies, consider any distance where Marth can't get the full range of his backward roll to be "backed down." Like I said, Jiggs can tomahawk into back throw if she pressures your shield (very common near ledge), or she could sit back and space bairs on your shield attempting to bait you to roll inward. Jiggs bair on shield pressure is no joke. She can hit you with 3 in succession, and Marth's shield sucks and is easily poked. It sounds stupid to roll inward, but you have to do something...Oh sorry, you said backthrow... kindly explain how jiggs is going to get a backthrow off stage? For one, there's the obvious logic flaw that if marth is backed up all the way against the edge of the stage, there's no room for jiggs to be behind him. If jiggs can't get behind marth, where's the backthrow? Semantics aside, even assuming there is room, the only way to pull it off is for jiggs to bair/nair and DI behind the shield, or to simply empty hop behind it. This shouldn't work more than once in a match, and even then it'll only work because it catches you off guard. The instant jiggs gets behind you, pure reaction time can allow you to see where she is and react before jiggs even touches the ground.
Marth has an extremely limited combo game. Fair in place is not safe, and retreat fair does not combo into anything ever. If you early fair in place, Jiggs waits out of range and bairs your lag. If you try to late fair, you might get bair'd early or she can still rush in and bair because you will still be forced to shield or roll to avoid if bair is timed properly around the marth fair. Like I said, Marth nair is beaten directly by jiggs bair, so I guess you could combo into it somehow, but you're probably going to need to full hop to nair jiggs during a combo, which limits your ability to follow up afterwards.That said, I think with jiggs' punishment game and the current metagame, the matchup should never be really considered far outside the range of 55:45-45:55. The reason I post is that on the side saying jiggs has an advantage, there seem to be a lot of assumptions/misconceptions. While what otg said to sveet is valid: "go play hbox", I think sveet's right in asking how many people have played this from the marth perspective against a player of equal skill. Marth actually has a combo game, non DI dependent. Marth's fairs actually legitimately chain, and at low %s he can even throw nairs in there.
Well, I guess that's one way to assert the authority penis. Have you considered that you might have been outplayed?And again, I've played Hbox.
Shielding vs. jiggs equates to you ****ed up your spacing, and you're now shielding to stop the hit that you were undoubtedly about to take and most likely the only option you're going to have out of shield is a retreating wd OoS or a retreating roll
it's bad
like
when you watch pokemon, or see a picture of jiggs, all happy and fluffy and smiling and ****, carefree and flamboyant, as a smasher who knows the true meaning of wall of pain see's something entirely different, a demonic spawn of Satan. An entity who knows no mercy, callously back airing without regard to the sanctity of the match, the game, or your stocks. There are few things more terrifying than being on defense vs. an offensive jiggs
how does the mixup look if you DI down and *slightly* awayF-throw f-smash is not guaranteed. They can DI down & away. D-throw f-smash will work if they DI down & away though. If they DI down then d-throw f-smash does not work, and f-throw f-smash will only work if they pivot it (which is guaranteed there if they do it properly) or are near 100% and WD f-smash.
The ability to pivot f-smash and at high damage WD f-smash off of f-throw restores the mixup between f/d-throw to f-smash that was once considered negated by DIing down.
LOL I'm not equating me losing to hbox = bad marth matchup. Someone was asking if any Marths have ACTUALLY played vs jiggs before.Well, I guess that's one way to assert the authority penis. Have you considered that you might have been outplayed?
I quit trying to explain the obvious fact that Zelda > Mewtwo b/c Kaostar probably would have committed ritualistic suicide via Shadow Ball....DruggedFox. People are dumb.
Thats why I gave up explaining stuff in this thread a long time ago lol.
Lets just see if these match ups that are quite obviously in one character's favor change over time *cough* Zelda > Mewtwo *cough*
I don't really understand why there is "55:45" or "65:35" etc. etc. Falcon can't win 5 1/2 matches against Marth. :xFalcon 55:45 Marth?
Falco 65:35 Falcon?
Fox 60:40 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth?
Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?
Yes, yes?
wow, that never happens.fun fact: if jigglypuff rolls toward marth just as he fsmashes, she has a large period of time in which she can rest him before he can move again. (i don't have SDM's frame data on hand but it was around an 8-10 frame window)
ffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuHe could win 55 out of 100 vs. marth....?
I'd put Puff as even with Marth for now. There didn't seem to be a consensus on 55:45 or 45:55.Falcon 55:45 Marth?
Falco 65:35 Falcon?
Fox 60:40 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth?
Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?
Yes, yes?
LOL true storyI quit trying to explain the obvious fact that Zelda > Mewtwo b/c Kaostar probably would have committed ritualistic suicide via Shadow Ball....