Tornado and upB are already mostly negated. Uair, perhaps...as I have said. It still is a threat, but does not lead to too much reward for MK even upon hit
I don't see how you say Tornado is negated. I've been saying that good MKs won't sit in one spot when you SDI above and let you D-air from the center. They're going to try to keep you trapped in the sides so you have to SDI longer to get in the center and above. If you're DIing, they're going to go up or to the sides respectively to follow your DI, or go to the sides to avoid a D-air. Very, very rarely should you get a D-air to contact if you're stuck in tornado by a good MK.
You've just been saying the generic blank statement, "D-air beats Tornado."
upB is too quick to punish on reaction. I understand punishing grounded ones, but not aerial ones.
MK has more options when he's below you than you do when you're above him. He can still U-air trap you; you didn't really touch on the, "MK can U-air you if you shine stall and you can only really throw him off with the first shine otherwise you get hit." He could U-air you from max range and hit either of your bottom corners of the U-air; that way, even if it misses and you try to D-air him or something, MK can be safe and retaliate.
tl;dr:
D-air beats Tornado from directly above, but MK has the tools to chase your SDI or drift away if you SDI out, making an aerial Tornado safe.
D-air beats Shuttle Loop, but aerial shuttle loops aren't punishable on reaction unless they're far away (and that wouldn't be an ideal time to shuttle loop). It's still a valid threat.
Shine stall can throw off U-air, but MK still has a number of safe options in that situation while still being able to attack Fox.
Fox has limited options above MK. It's not an advantageous situation.
Saying it isn't true for any character is not a valid argument that it is not true for Fox... Fox has good options when in the air against MK.. I'm not sure, personally, that it is the real advantage for either character here, but Fox can deal with anything MK has from above... the uair is a good tool here, sure, but if you think the MK is just going to shine the stall, rather than where the Fox would normally go, then a non-stalled Dair will hit, too... Uair has limited attack frames, so he can only cover one real option... saying "MK will just uair the stall" is going into mindgame theory...
It wasn't an argument, it was just a statement.
As I said, MK would probably attack where you'd normally go instead of the stall the first couple of times it's used, and you can D-air him. After that, he could catch on, and either wait for a second stall and punish, space himself so even if he misses he's unpunishable, or predict that you'll shine stall and hit you where you'll stall (although there's a risk of being D-aired). And that's just with one aerial. He could mix shuttle loops in there and Mach Tornados (not right below you, but more to the sides) and be unpunishable.
MK probably won't U-air the first stall. The second, he can probably retaliate with something like upB or U-air. Saying, "Oh, MK will just U-air your first stall," is ignorant and pretty much untrue. However, MK has more options below you than you do above him. And MK has safe options below you that can still hit you, while your options above him (air-dodging, n-airing, d-airing, shine stall) all run some risk.
most of the time, your posts are correct, but this is plain wrong... Again, you are using a blanket statement of MK vs the rest of the cast. MK could be able to avoid all damage input against the rest of the cast, but that does not say anything at all about the Fox matchup. Fox has the most efficient anti-tornado tools that I have seen beause he is able to punish the tornado reliably during, or after it, and he can punish upon being hit.
I'm not sure if it is due to Fox's light weight, but he SDI's out much more efficiently than the majority of the cast, putting him directly above the center of the tornado... The only time he can absolutely not punish 'nado is if the MK already has established sideways momentum, at which point, the 'nado does about 2%, and the spacing is reset. If the MK tries to change momentum to avoid attack, he is paused for long enough to land the dair...
This only depends on the timing of Fox's SDI... where the tornado hits you is irrelevant to it
Again, the statement wasn't an argument, just a statement. I said the statement because many characters have the tools Fox has to punish a Tornado, which are SDI and an attack that can hit downwards through it. But there's a reason that you see Tornado still being able to be effectively used on these characters, despite the fact that they beat the move on paper.
Fox's anti-MK tools are D-air and SDIing (relates to D-air), both of which MK can avoid altogether. Sure, Fox can SDI above the center, that's been said. But MK can drift one way or another to put you back in the sides. Very rarely will you be in the center. MK has sideways momentum from Tornado very shortly after start-up, so it's pretty safe.
While where the Tornado hits doesn't matter to how much you can SDI, it matters to how you can get out. If he hits you with the top, it's easy to SDI to the top and D-air. If he hits you with the right side and you're trying to SDI to the top, it takes longer. And then if he's drifiting to the left side and is going up as you're trying to SDI left and up, it's going to be extremely hard, if not nearly impossible, to get out of the Tornado.
Usmash does override everything without the glide attacks proper spacing. I know this one to be true. If the Glide attack is angled down, it is unpunishable upon shield by anything other than perhaps a grab. But if the glide attack is not angled down from a grounded upB or anything, OoS usmash hits it.
I'll believe you then.
But since he has a way to avoid it, it doesn't help the overall match-up, it's just something to know against MKs without good Fox experience.
agreed, but if you position yourself above him, he has much less time than normal to uair, so you are more likely to land an attack, shield hit.
This is assuming that for whatever reason, you're going to be above him while he F-smashes.
Things like this don't happen.
If he F-smashes and you're in front of him, you don't have the frame time to jump over and hit him. And an MK won't F-smash when you're above him. It's like saying that a Fox would F-smash forward when MK is behind him. It just wouldn't happen. It doesn't matter if Fox can beat him in a situation that can never happen, if the situation can never happen.
It seems like you're bringing a lot of highly situational things to the table, such as an MK not DIing his tornado or using other attacks when you're above him, or him F-smashing when you're above him, or him spacing attacks badly, etc.
Dair clanks with glide attack, and continues attacking, leading to utilt, or whatever it leads to at MK's %... this is what I mean by using Dair to counter upB. If upB is shielded, dodged, or whiffed, A dash SH dair is a guaranteed hit, since MK does not have time to cancel his glide fast enough to stop it.
K.
upB's uses are also limited in the air, since a dair from directly above can hit it...
You can't punish aerial upB on reaction with D-air. A SH D-air above him will prevent him from upBing, but he could always wait or choose a different attack.
as I touched on before in this post, outspacing and zoning is something that Fox has even in his advantageous matchups... while it is a tool for MK to use, it does not solely mean that 'lol MK ***** fox'
It seems as more compelling evidence to suggest that he wins the match-up quite solidly, though. No it doesn't solely mean that he beats him. However, it really helps his side. He has a viable, safe approach against you. You don't against him. He beats you when you're above him, slightly beats you off-stage, beats you in most zones really, and has faster frame CQC and aerial attacks with more range to punish vs. yours.
Sure, Fox can win situational things like beating his upB and glide attack. However, MK can do without using that altogether (even though he doesn't have to). Overall, MK has a much more safe approach and kill options, and that's huge.
edit: going to eat, however.
Before you can solidly tack on a match-up number, you have to look at everything that's said and the weight of those things. Fox vs. MK being 55:45? If I read this thread from an outside source, I wouldn't believe it, namely for two reasons.
1) Lack of MK mains in the thread.
2) Arguments
The arguments really aren't finished at all, and there's like one person on either side saying anything notable on the match-up (me and Fenrir, essentially).
I'm honestly going to say that I don't see how a match-up can be 55:45 when the character with 45 gets outzoned, outspaced, can't approach the other character, can be approached safely by the other character, and just about loses in every major notable aspect.
