Match-Up Export #1: Meta Knight | Complete!!

[Steel]

I would be throwing down all kinds of detail if I were any good at explaining these types of things; I can only show what I mean through video and since I'm backed up on Herb2 vids thats going to take a while. =(

When I say "defensive".. I imply how any player would be defensive..? Don't approach? Counter/punish/shield grab? The opposite of offensive. XD If Fox went all out offense against MK then sure.. I can see the match up being somewhere like 30:70..

My main point is.. its a little silly to assume that since the last match-up, considering the amount of knowledge that the Fox community has unearthed, as well as the amount of time that has past since the last match-up discussion.. that things would stay the exact same. Wouldn't it?

Even if by just a 5 point increase Fox has evolved to be more prominent in the competetive scene. I think in this match-up more-so. But thats just my 2 cents. :3

And all numbers imply is just win to lose ratio right? Implying that if the match is 40/60, two players of equal skill would have 4/6 wins/losses out of 10 matches? That's how I'm seeing things.

I didn't say how does Fox play defensive, I said what defense?

I explained that he doesn't have the tools to effectively camp meta knight. You also aren't countering/punishing/shield grabbing ANYTHING if MK just plays it safe and pokes at you.

Also, what exactly has changed since you did the last match discussion? Did Fox gain some new ability to go through opponent's swords so he can hit them? All you guys are saying is he has a few tricks to mess with MK's special crap, but what happens when the ball of death just stands there and pokes at you?

And no, that's not AT ALL what a match up ratio shows. 60/40 is a slight advantage, it's more than that.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think this should help a lot.

Guide to Match-Up Ratios by Praxis
50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools, or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, the other character does have responses him, and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent or outspacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended - or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

 

[Palpi]

I don't see how that helps, considering MK has options that shut downs fox's other options and has clearly better tools, and there is a solid advantage. That doesn't point to 55-45 metaknight.

Steel, fox actually has this new technique jump bounce cancel wave killing, apparently it gets through all of MK tilts / priority.

 

[Red Arremer]

I thought you and Melomanaical were done here?

 

[Virgman]

I don't see how that helps, considering MK has options that shut downs fox's other options and has clearly better tools.

He may have cleary "better" tools, but MK doesn't have the tools to shut down Fox's options. What you're saying is that MK renders Fox helpless, and that is far from true. MK has really good attacks and alternatives, but you're not taking into account what Fox can do against those attacks. I don't see what tools you're talking about that can shut Fox down. We've already established that tornado generally wouldn't be a smart attack to use, and shuttle loop and glide attack are punishable by dair or upsmash. The only things I see that MK has going for him against Fox are his aerials (which there are ways around; you won't get it every time simply because you're in the air with Meta Knight), his grab, and dsmash. Someone said something about MK's ftilt earlier. All you have to do is shield it. And if it pokes you, your shield is too low...generally works the same way for every character in the game. And if MK approaches you, then mindgame him with Fox's speed, maybe a surprise attack or grab. Don't forget Fox has an illusion if he needs to get away from an unappealing situation, but use it with discretion. MKs a good character, but he's not as good as you're making him out to be.

 

[Curaga]

I'm in agreement with Virgman

In a slight addition.. Fox is constantly retreating and using his speed. Aside from basic things which all characters have (shield/dodge), we're going to OOS aerial, while retreating. We're going to grab, throw, and then laser while retreating. We're going to capitilize on our ability to retaliate while fleeing.

I bring up our secured 30%+ damage on MK with up-tilts and whats questioned is how reliably can we land an uptilt. Up-tilts will happen, no matter if we shield and dodge our way into getting close, or we successfully time a D-air to link into an up-tilt, its going to happen.

Thats what I mean by defensive.

Jabs, a single tilt, a well timed aerial, even a shine. They're all quick, and we just need to tap a MK once to reset our spacing. MetaKnight is GOING to chase us. He's going to keep catching up, theres only so much stage, but until we see something definitive that we can punish/link/or kill thats really how we overcome his "standing and poking".

I'm not defaming Meta Knight in any way, Meta Knight IS the best character in the game. He is just not a counter to Fox. He's just on tough on Fox as he is any of the other characters that were mentioned; and he requires his own unique way of playing in order to defeat.

Thank you Sp.. Onishiba for posting that little tidbit of Match up knowledge. Based exactly off what that says, we fall into 40:60. MK has more tools as his disposal, and while it shuts down some of our game, we still have responses. We have to outplay, and out perform, but it is not so dramatic that our character does "poorly" against MetaKnight. We have to fight for it; and thats a perfect summary.

I'm not posting to make an enemies, I'm just trying to contribute to this match-up; a match-up thats I'm incredibly comfortable with. I'd much rather take on a MK than a Marth or Snake.. because I know my options, and while its a struggle.. its really not terribly one sided.

Its just MetaKnight, and he's scary. Thats never in question. lol

 

[Palpi]

No I am not. Fox has tools that can be certain aspects of Metaknights game, but his pokes are far superior to foxes like steel explained and just the raw basic aspects of mk game is too much for fox to handle.

Fox cannot do much when metaknight actually "catches up" to fox and approaches. Like I have said before, match ups are made out of the top of characters current metagame. I do not see any fox player beating a top 5 MK in 4 of 10 sets. I just don't see it. That is why I agree with rookie, who explained in great detail about his pov on that matchup being 65:35. It is a 5 difference, but the way the "match up number chart" spadefox posted explains it, 65:35 is more suiting.

Metaknight is more than just a good character Virgman. Metaknight has superior aerials from every angle on fox. "Oh just shine stall and dair." That is easily avoidable especially if the metaknight stays on the ground and pokes. All of MK's tilts are superior to Fox ground options.

Snake is easier than MK for fox.

 

[Curaga]

No I am not. Fox has tools that can be certain aspects of Metaknights game, but his pokes are far superior to foxes like steel explained and just the raw basic aspects of mk game is too much for fox to handle.

Fox cannot do much when metaknight actually "catches up" to fox and approaches. Like I have said before, match ups are made out of the top of characters current metagame. I do not see any fox player beating a top 5 MK in 4 of 10 sets. I just don't see it. That is why I agree with rookie, who explained in great detail about his pov on that matchup being 65:35. It is a 5 difference, but the way the "match up number chart" spadefox posted explains it, 65:35 is more suiting.

Metaknight is more than just a good character Virgman. Metaknight has superior aerials from every angle on fox. "Oh just shine stall and dair." That is easily avoidable especially if the metaknight stays on the ground and pokes. All of MK's tilts are superior to Fox ground options.

See, this is much more chill.

You're disagreeing with us, but it sounds like we'd totally have this conversation over coffee, rather than swinging baseball bats at each other.

What would sate you, as well as others who share your opinion is a Fox player who can constantly show what we're saying tournament after tournament. So for the sake of this discussion, we need footage. Cold hard evidence, that can't be pushed aside.

RXgaming doesn't have that kind of footage.. but I know for sure there are Fox players out there who do really well against top tiers.. I just hope someone can contribute for my sake.

 

[Red Arremer]

I've talked a bit with Zhamy about the matchup, and he convinced me that it's more 60:40 than 55:45 (for Meta Knight, of course).
Although he suggested 65:35, as well, the way he explained it, it definitely sounded like 60:40 (he thinks it's a bit more in between than anything else). I will post his arguments in a little.

 

[etecoon]

In a slight addition.. Fox is constantly retreating and using his speed.

aside from FD(first stage on every meta knight's to ban list), fox doesn't have much space to run on neutrals, you'll quickly reach the edge and be forced to reset the situation by rolling around, jumping over, or attacking meta knight, and by putting yourself in a corner, you are actually making it much easier for him to cover your options, giving up valuable real estate, and essentially making his kill moves stronger as well as putting yourself in a position to get edge guarded.

Aside from basic things which all characters have (shield/dodge), we're going to OOS aerial, while retreating. We're going to grab, throw, and then laser while retreating. We're going to capitilize on our ability to retaliate while fleeing.

what ability to retaliate? if you're able to hit your aerials out of shield or shield grab meta knight, he ****ed up, fox doesn't have good OoS options on MK.

I bring up our secured 30%+ damage on MK with up-tilts and whats questioned is how reliably can we land an uptilt. Up-tilts will happen, no matter if we shield and dodge our way into getting close, or we successfully time a D-air to link into an up-tilt, its going to happen.

shield and dodge? if I throw out a retreating SH fair or a fully spaced dtilt and you shield it, how are you going to punish that with anything significant if at all? what can fox do to successfully land a dair on meta knight? you aren't going to just jump above him and stall with shine are you? MK's uair is 2 frames, you can't mindgame him into making himself vulnerable because he can deal with you in that position on 100% reaction, and if the meta knight doesn't feel confident doing that, he can always just walk out of the way and wait for you to land, which amounts to you putting yourself in a disadvantaged position voluntarily. the only thing fox has is his roll, which can get behind MK's fair safely if done perfectly but not his dtilt(free 19% is tasty), and the timing for rolling is basically "if you mess up by 2 frames you get hit"(no invincibility on beginning of roll so the fair has to be totally predicted, not a very good option)....even if fox does this consistently, MK has no problem with "fair to space air, dtilt to space ground".

Jabs, a single tilt, a well timed aerial, even a shine. They're all quick, and we just need to tap a MK once to reset our spacing. MetaKnight is GOING to chase us. He's going to keep catching up, theres only so much stage, but until we see something definitive that we can punish/link/or kill thats really how we overcome his "standing and poking".

so...MK walks and dtilts you, you're going to get him to stop poking at you by using attacks that have half as much range or less and some of which take two to three times as long to come out? all of these options that you're presenting that deal with meta knight only do so if the MK doesn't stay behind his sword. meta knight's range gives him field control in this matchup, fox has to outplay meta knight by a large margin in order to keep up. and this is all only taking into account first stock when MK wants to get the kill and must approach, what happens when he KOs you and goes into all out camp mode? lasers aren't going to bother him, what can you do to approach meta knight? if you do land some hits how can these translate into a disadvantaged situation from which you could land a knock out blow on him? covering his landing/ledge options doesn't work like it does vs other characters, his spacing makes it extremely difficult to land a power hit from neutral...inherently there is nothing about meta knight to exploit, all you can do is read the other player.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Moogle told me he had some close matches with Teba at Genesis. Said he got ***** offstage though. <_<

Btw, Rookie, those video links aren't correct.

NEW LINK it is a playlist of my fox vs mk vids

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7A6B3F22DD26B93F

 

[Zhamy]

If you don't understand Fox, don't act like you understand how the matchup works.

Thank you.

EDIT: Definitely not aimed at you, Rookie.

 

[DarkAura]

exactly why i suck at matchup discussion... despite the fact i know fox like the back of my hand

i just don't know any other characters....

 

[718_ROOKI3]

If you don't understand Fox, don't act like you understand how the matchup works.

Thank you.

EDIT: Definitely not aimed at you, Rookie.

I dont see how this is aimed at me what so ever, dont worry i dont get angry like that zhamy. you out of all people should know that

 

[AvaricePanda]

We've already established that tornado generally wouldn't be a smart attack to use,

No.

Your argument is that Tornado can be SDI'd out of and D-aired, therefore punished. My argument is that good MKs position themselves with the tornado to make it harder to SDI and punish, drift to chase you DI and keep you in longer, or drift away to avoid punishment altogether. Fox has no special tool that can bypass this. Tornado is still a very good tool against Fox, sure the top center of tornado isn't safe for him, but against a majority of characters, it isn't, so MK usually doesn't do that.

and shuttle loop and glide attack are punishable by dair or upsmash.

Shuttle loop is not punishable on reaction by D-air. The problem with this is, if you predict a shuttle loop and D-air, MK can easily just U-air/N-air/Tornado in the same situation. He has multiple safe options in a given situation, more than Fox does.

Glide attack is punishable by D-air, U-smash not really. Only if the MK spaces it badly will it be punished by U-smash, which, if you're assuming both characters are good, at a high level of their metagames, and know the match-up well, won't happen.

The only things I see that MK has going for him against Fox are his aerials (which there are ways around; you won't get it every time simply because you're in the air with Meta Knight),

Vague, general statement.

his grab, and dsmash. Someone said something about MK's ftilt earlier. All you have to do is shield it.

Given that you're in a position to shield it. You can't automatically shield whenever; if you're in any type of lag at all, you can be punished with an attack like F-tilt, D-tilt, D-smash, Tornado, Shuttle Loop, etc. Also, good MKs won't follow up with the F-tilt when the first hitbox hits your shield, making it virtually impossible to punish unless you perfect shield it.

And if it pokes you, your shield is too low...generally works the same way for every character in the game.

Not pokes as in pokes your shield. Pokes as in uses safe attacks out of your range to build up damage. Case in point, D-tilt. It's fast frame-wise and difficult to punish even if it hits your shield. It outranges all of Fox's grounded options, and it's quick enough so if Fox decides to jump, MK can perform another attack before Fox hits aerially.

And if MK approaches you, then mindgame him with Fox's speed, maybe a surprise attack or grab.

Generic blanket statement that can be used for any character in any match-up. Statements like, "oh just mindgame them," are really bad in match-up discussion. Samus doesn't beat Diddy because, "oh just mindgame him away from his bananas and use them against him."

There's a difference between "mindgames" and "mix-up potential" (probably not the best wording, but whatever. Saying, "You can mindgame out of something," is a baseless statement that doesn't much worth of it. However, saying, "You can mindgame or mix-up out of something because you have 5 options in this situation while your opponent has only one," is a little more valid.

With that said, how exactly do you mind-game MK with Fox's speed? Are you implying that Fox has quick, good-range pokes or powerful smashes that are frame-wise fast that beat MKs (which he doesn't) or are you implying that Fox is so fast that your opponent will be confused (which they won't, Melee anyone)? To be completely serious, Fox's ground speed doesn't mean much in CQC, by the time it takes you to dash away, MK could have D-tilted, D-smashed, Shuttle Looped, or chased with Mach Tornado.

Don't forget Fox has an illusion if he needs to get away from an unappealing situation, but use it with discretion. .

llusion
Startup: 20
Hit: 21
Hitlag: 5
Landing Lag 25
Total: 61
Shield stun: 9
Shield hitlag: 7
Advantage: -63, -38 if on the ground

It's a linear, punishable move that isn't good frame-wise. It's better for recovery because you're much farther from your opponent on activation of it, but for retreating on-stage?

The problem I'm seeing is that people are throwing generic blanket statements like, "Fox has the speed to get away from MK," or "Fox has improved a lot over the past couple of months, so the match-up should be better." The former is bad because it tells nothing of the actual match-up, the latter is bad because it's assuming that MK hasn't improved at all over the last couple of months, and assuming that overall character growth is large enough to propel match-ups one way or the other even if the match-up is still skewed.

People are also considering situational things way too often. Fox's D-air beating the eye of Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop has turned into, by some, "Fox beats Tornado and Shuttle Loop to the point where MK shouldn't use them much at all," even though the chances he'll have to punish either is slim, and he can't punish all uses of either.

And this question still has yet to be answered, I don't feel like: What do you do when MK decides to approach? What do you do when MK just starts poking with D-tilts and playing extremely safe but still racking percentage on to you? Fox doesn't have many defensive options to stop MK's offensive game. I feel like this question has been dodged the entire thread.

 

[Palpi]

Thank You Avarice. I Even Asked That A Couple Pages Back And No One Answered It. You Are The Embodient Of Win!

/bow

edit; I just realized it has been answered. The answer is nothing, because that is an aspect fox can't handle properly, so not answering at all would be acceptable.

*The steady breeze of win blows through my golden locks*

 

[Curaga]

double post.

 

[Curaga]

A question that needs answering.. ?

so...MK walks and dtilts you, you're going to get him to stop poking at you by using attacks that have half as much range or less and some of which take two to three times as long to come out?

Yes.

 

[Palpi]

How do you think that will work?

you're probably joking. i hope

 

[SnowballBob33]

Fox's grab range is pretty good. Dtilt pushes MK forward when he does it. So you sit there and take all the hits until you grab him and if he slows down his attacks to stop moving, jump away from him.

Fox has an advantage that most characters dont have. He has several options to get away from him when he is above MK/on the defensive in the air. First, he can shine stall. That makes it so MK can't just wait until your jumps run out to punish you on the ground because you can just shine. Also he falls very fast. Therefore when you are above MK you can fast fall and airdodge to avoid many attacks. Also he has illusion. You can drift back faster than MK can come to get you. If you feel threatened you can fall back to the blast zones to use up MK's jump and then illusion to avoid whatever comes next. Basically, he is safe when falling.

It depends on how MK tries to approach. Tornado means you take about 5% from lasers. If it hits your shield and he tries to wear your shield down with it and doesn't space well, you can most likely punish it. If he is far away and uses it just jump and shine stall, then dair if he messes up. Basically, you can't spam tornado all day because you are taking damage slowly while you may not even be doing anything.
Dash approach gets punished with utilt or dash.
When he approaches, he will be hit with lasers on the way.
Fair means you get grabbed if you land, and possibly utilt or fair if you are too close.
Glide gets a few lasers, grabbed if too close, possibly usmash oos or just avoided.
Grab is typical punishment when some1 misses a grab.

If somehow nobody gets damaged in the encounter, MK would be forced to approach again and get hit with lasers.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Fox's grab range is pretty good. Dtilt pushes MK forward when he does it. So you sit there and take all the hits until you grab him and if he slows down his attacks to stop moving, jump away from him.

Or, he dtilts you twice, you trip, he grabs you and you get *****.

Fox has an advantage that most characters dont have. He has several options to get away from him when he is above MK/on the defensive in the air. First, he can shine stall. That makes it so MK can't just wait until your jumps run out to punish you on the ground because you can just shine. Also he falls very fast. Therefore when you are above MK you can fast fall and airdodge to avoid many attacks. Also he has illusion. You can drift back faster than MK can come to get you. If you feel threatened you can fall back to the blast zones to use up MK's jump and then illusion to avoid whatever comes next. Basically, he is safe when falling.

I'm not convinced with the shine stall deal. I fully understand what you're saying (for the record, Fox was my first competitive main), but I really don't see it being such a huge life saver when you're in the air. So you're shine stalling, MK can still jump up there and uair you. Fast falling, yeah, I can see that helping. I would never suggest going offstage and towards blast zones on MK. Offstage he will destroy you, especially if you aren't above him (apparently). So, you can illusion back on stage. Well that's fine, except if MK is on stage and ready for that, you will eat an fsmash for it.

It depends on how MK tries to approach. Tornado means you take about 5% from lasers. If it hits your shield and he tries to wear your shield down with it and doesn't space well, you can most likely punish it. If he is far away and uses it just jump and shine stall, then dair if he messes up. Basically, you can't spam tornado all day because you are taking damage slowly while you may not even be doing anything.
Dash approach gets punished with utilt or dash.
When he approaches, he will be hit with lasers on the way.
Fair means you get grabbed if you land, and possibly utilt or fair if you are too close.
Glide gets a few lasers, grabbed if too close, possibly usmash oos or just avoided.
Grab is typical punishment when some1 misses a grab.

If somehow nobody gets damaged in the encounter, MK would be forced to approach again and get hit with lasers.

Okay...
MKs have evolved past the stage of "crap, he's shielding my tornado, I'm going to get punished." No, MK can move away and get out of tornado with almost zero lag after. You approach and try to punish, you very well may be ftilted or dsmashed. And if he sees you shine stalling above him, he obviously won't stay below you.
Another problem...
According to this... you are lasering and in position for an utilt at the same time. Not happening. Anyway, say you're lasering while MK is approaching. Your lasers have no stun, you are probably going to get dash attacked or grabbed (or both). The "utilt MKs dash attack" situation will rarely happen. I can't picture MK charging at you from half a stage away, and you facing backwards, ready to utilt. But again, if he's approaching you, you can't be lasering and be ready to utilt him. Chose one. Either way, these situations aren't so projected. When MK is approaching you, you don't have 3 seconds to say "he's running at me, I can utilt his dash attack." He'll just dash attack you.
Fair does not mean he gets grabbed. Fair means he probably just fair'd you. You can't assume that MK is whiffing all of this.

Random question: what about a MK who planks? Does Fox have anything to counter that?

Oh, and @Spadefox (I'm still calling you Spadefox, dammit): I meant I was done "trolling" (LOL).

 

[M@v]

This is 6-4 Meta. Its not a terrible matchup for fox, but he does a lot better than most.

Camp camp camp.























did I mention camp?


Also, Only use dair when your punishing and use it only when you know you can land it. Mk can punish you way too easily for it. Imo Fair is your best aerial vs mk. It deals good damage vs him and can kill him if your close to the top since hes light. It also allows you to match his aerial mobility. Lastly, its a live saver when recovering vs mk.

Upsmash pwns mk harrdddd. Its AMAZING vs aggressive-style mks. Just let them come, and then JC upsmash them.

Also, a little tid-bit I use; When mk dthrows you, nair right away. Most mks try to follow up dthrow as fast as possible, and they will eat a strong hit nair every time if they do.


vs tornado:
Nair
Dair from the top
Upsmash(hard to time)
shine(my favorite)

Shine from the top is great to beat mks tornado. However, you really should never try to knock him out of it. Just run. Fox is is fast enough to punish mk on the little endlag he has from tornado, unless the mk executes perfectly. Either shine stall high and and dair as the tornado is ending, or run and upsmash on the endlag.

More on this matchup later. I normally mk ditto this matchup nowadays, but it still isnt terrible for fox. 6:4 Mk.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I dont see how this is aimed at me what so ever, dont worry i dont get angry like that zhamy. you out of all people should know that

I think it was because his post was right after yours so he wanted to cover his back to make sure you knew he wasn't talking about you.

I don't understand Fox. So I will not contribute to the topic =D I suck.

lulzuzlullzzu~~~luzluzlzuzu~~~!

 

[Palpi]

Oh and illusion gets ***** hard by N-air.

lol @ (and both) melo. A dash attack on fox is a free grab until like 30-35% you know it

 

[SnowballBob33]

Or, he dtilts you twice, you trip, he grabs you and you get *****.

I didn't word it right. I mean you shield the hits. When you are above and MK is on the ground, its a bad position for MK. 2 dilts>trip applies to everyone.

I'm not convinced with the shine stall deal. I fully understand what you're saying (for the record, Fox was my first competitive main), but I really don't see it being such a huge life saver when you're in the air. So you're shine stalling, MK can still jump up there and uair you. Fast falling, yeah, I can see that helping. I would never suggest going offstage and towards blast zones on MK. Offstage he will destroy you, especially if you aren't above him (apparently). So, you can illusion back on stage. Well that's fine, except if MK is on stage and ready for that, you will eat an fsmash for it.

It's like this. If fox is above and mk is uaring, fall back because your drift speed is higher. The if you get in a bad spot you can jump and fair to get more height and throw off mk. Then shine stall to waste jumps. It's is hard to punish illusion normally. If MK waits in the middle of the stage and trys to fsmash, you just firefox to the ledge. If he waits on the ledge illusion to the middle. If MK ever slips up, you can punish with dair or just get back to the ground. The main thing is that he can't just punish your fall speed because you can stop and then start up and then instantly go somewhere else.

Okay...
MKs have evolved past the stage of "crap, he's shielding my tornado, I'm going to get punished." No, MK can move away and get out of tornado with almost zero lag after. You approach and try to punish, you very well may be ftilted or dsmashed. And if he sees you shine stalling above him, he obviously won't stay below you.

The whole point is that if he's close to you, he will eat some shield but end up far away to take lasers or an illusion. If hes far and comes in close he takes lasers then shield>punish, or jump and shine>dair. He can't just wait under you to fall then retreat at the last second because fox can stall the dair.

Another problem...
According to this... you are lasering and in position for an utilt at the same time. Not happening. Anyway, say you're lasering while MK is approaching. Your lasers have no stun, you are probably going to get dash attacked or grabbed (or both). The "utilt MKs dash attack" situation will rarely happen. I can't picture MK charging at you from half a stage away, and you facing backwards, ready to utilt. But again, if he's approaching you, you can't be lasering and be ready to utilt him. Chose one. Either way, these situations aren't so projected. When MK is approaching you, you don't have 3 seconds to say "he's running at me, I can utilt his dash attack." He'll just dash attack you.
Fair does not mean he gets grabbed. Fair means he probably just fair'd you. You can't assume that MK is whiffing all of this.

When you laser its shdl so you hit the ground with shield. If MK dash attacks you and lands in front it gets grab or dash attack>follow up. If he lands behind you then its utilt.

Random question: what about a MK who planks? Does Fox have anything to counter that?

Depending on tourney rules, you typically get 5 ledge regrabs or whatever so hopefully the rules will be on your side. If you air plank, fair gets height and damage quick so thats a possible option. They will always be approaching though so its normally not a huge problem.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Imo Fair is your best aerial vs mk. It deals good damage vs him and can kill him if your close to the top since hes light. It also allows you to match his aerial mobility. Lastly, its a live saver when recovering vs mk.

DI says hi.

The last hit generally shouldn't hit. If you hit with the first one or two hits, you can SDI out of the F-air, and if you try to only hit with the last, MK can punish. MK can SDI out of the F-air and tornado or upB or something.

nair right away. Most mks try to follow up dthrow as fast as possible, and they will eat a strong hit nair every time if they do.

Test your MK opponent first. I learned that you could do the same thing with Diddy's F-air against his D-throw, but it only really worked half the time, and only a couple of times a set. They might fall for it the first or second time, but afterwards they'll wait for you to do an aerial and then punish.

vs tornado:
Nair
Dair from the top
Upsmash(hard to time)
shine(my favorite)



Shine from the top is great to beat mks tornado. However, you really should never try to knock him out of it. Just run. Fox is is fast enough to punish mk on the little endlag he has from tornado, unless the mk executes perfectly. Either shine stall high and and dair as the tornado is ending, or run and upsmash on the endlag.

This is all assuming that he doesn't hit you with Tornado or hit your shield with Tornado, both of which are safe a large majority of the time. MK probably isn't going to tornado away from you, let you laser him, and then run up and U-smash him.

The whole point is that if he's close to you, he will eat some shield but end up far away to take lasers or an illusion. If hes far and comes in close he takes lasers then shield>punish, or jump and shine>dair. He can't just wait under you to fall then retreat at the last second because fox can stall the dair.

If he's far, he can take lasers and shield>punish. Jump and shine>d-air shouldn't ever work, as you have to hit the tornado in the center (which MK won't let you get right above him) and there's frames that he has to punish the jump and shine. If you shield, he can retreat at the last second, or if your shield is already slightly chipped or you don't tilt it, he can keep tornadoing you and poke past it.

The thing is, why would MK tornado from that far away in the first place? He honestly shouldn't. And he honestly doesn't have to tornado when you're on the ground regardless.

When you laser its shdl so you hit the ground with shield. If MK dash attacks you and lands in front it gets grab or dash attack>follow up. If he lands behind you then its utilt.

Why would MK dash attack you when you're lasering?

Better question: Why would MK dash attack you? Why would he approach with one of his most punishable attacks and eat your projectiles in the process?

It honestly doesn't matter how well you punish dash attack if he's not going to dash attack much in the first place. What if he just runs and grabs or runs, spotdodges, and upBs, or goes over your laser fire and D-air camps, or goes over your laser fire and tornado (if he's on a platformed stage), or D-tilt at max range, or retreating F-air, etc etc.

He has much better approaches than dash attack.

Depending on tourney rules, you typically get 5 ledge regrabs or whatever so hopefully the rules will be on your side. If you air plank, fair gets height and damage quick so thats a possible option. They will always be approaching though so its normally not a huge problem.

F-air can be SDId and punished if the first hit or two connects, and if only the last hit connects, it's generally punishable on reaction. The rule generally is 50 ledgegrabs anyway if you go to a tournament with those rules (I don't see many with only 5 regrabs, and that's a stupid rule anyway that doesn't beat planking at all and just causes problems with other styles of play).

People are considering things that realistically would rarely happen much. You can punish an MK tornadoing from far away or dash attacking? Great. But they'll rarely do that, and they have other, better, safe options.

Again: What do you do when MK decides to approach and get in range?

 

[Steel]

Avarice I recommend you stop wasting your time.

We've presented our arguments with logical facts and reasoning. The majority of this board doesn't understand how to discuss a match up let alone realize Fox's absurd limitations when you look at MK's tools. We all know Fox has a few tricks vs MK's tornado etc, a LOT of characters do yet they still get a beating from MK when you just look at the simple stuff.

This board has always been like this, since early 08 even. TBQH, Fenrir's leadership has clouded a lot of the users' perceptions on Fox. I'm not saying Fenrir isn't a good player or anything like that, but he's instilling false information to the Fox board and the community as a whole.

I told Rookie to try and take over this board, but apparently he tried in the past and it didn't go so well. I recommend you look towards him for leadership, but I doubt I can influence anything.

*Sigh

It's too late.

*flips my cape back as I walk towards the sunset

 

[SnowballBob33]

What do you do when MK decides to approach and get in range?

I don't know how to answer that question because its very vague. Approach with what move? How close are you to a ledge/platform? When somebody approaches you block or spotdodge, so it depends on their spacing.

 

[Red Arremer]

I told Rookie to try and take over this board, but apparently he tried in the past and it didn't go so well. I recommend you look towards him for leadership, but I doubt I can influence anything.

You can check out the thread he made, yourself. He simply isn't suited as a leader for a community, as good as he may be at the game.

But this is going COMPLETELY Off-Topic now. I would ask you to all get back on track, calm down, and remind the guidelines in the OP.
This thread is getting ridiculous. If it continues to go like this, I will ask to have it closed and an extra discussion thread for the indepth aspects of Meta Knight vs. Fox (outlined in the OP as well).

 

[Palpi]

Fox can't handle metaknights safe approaches like fair, and his close range tilts. Fox has nothing to offer when Metaknight is poking. He has some gimmicks to avoid nado ... when he's not hitting you... ?... but he just can't handle a smart metaknight who uses his safe approach options. That is why 65-35 is a viable match-up ratio.

Steel. You get the golden goblet of win aswell.

 

[Steel]

You can check out the thread he made, yourself. He simply isn't suited as a leader for a community, as good as he may be at the game.

But this is going COMPLETELY Off-Topic now. I would ask you to all get back on track, calm down, and remind the guidelines in the OP.
This thread is getting ridiculous. If it continues to go like this, I will ask to have it closed and an extra discussion thread for the indepth aspects of Meta Knight vs. Fox (outlined in the OP as well).

He was out of line with that thread, but I guess he didn't really know that asking to be mod = bad. You don't need to be a moderator to lead a community though. I still think he's one of the smartest people here.

 

[Palpi]

Yeah, but Steel. At least Rookie didn't arbitrarily state that the MK vs Fox MU was 55:45

 

[TKD]

nothing 10chars

 

[Palpi]

Steel. I cannot respond to what TKD said without getting infractions. Obvious Troll IS OBVIOUS. I really hope he is a troll..

 

[DaomarIsBear]

I might be in the wrong place to request this, but wouldn't a video of how this match up should be dealt with help? Does r00kie have any videos up on Fox vs MK?

 

[Palpi]

Rookie linked his video channel. Rookie was significantly the better player in those matches though.

 

[Steel]

I'll make this quick.
- Generally, MK's even match-ups are Fox

You've never posted any legit evidence of this.

Summary of what you said:

Fox forces MK to approach.

- Cool, too bad Fox can't control space well with his lasers. MK can just pretend they aren't even there and attack you. If the lasers stunned, well then we'd have a whole other case on our hands.

Fox can bait MK

- Baiting and mindgames cannot be discussed in a match up debate, they are intangibles.


Also, everyone (the Fox's) has been avoiding the main point of this whole debate, the neutral situation. I don't blame them, there's nothing they can say. Fox can run away I guess lol

Like seriously

I see this:

AvaricePanda: Fox can't do anything if MK is keeping his sword in front of him, Fox has no reliable way to get inside unless the MK screws up

Fox player: We can dair tornado though

>_>

 

[Zhamy]

To be fair, I think the Fox boards is trying to say something different from what you are, Steel. While do you bring up legitimate points about MK's poking game against Fox, I think the boards are more focused on picking out little things they can do for certain parts of the matchup. At this point, trying to argue who has how much of an advantage is kind of silly, really, and the reason why you see this:

AvaricePanda: Fox can't do anything if MK is keeping his sword in front of him, Fox has no reliable way to get inside unless the MK screws up

Fox player: We can dair tornado though

Is because you guys are on two different wavelengths. (Granted, there are probably a fair share of people who just don't know what they're talking about.)

If you want to discuss the matchup in full, and talk about advantages and disadvantages, you'd be better off trying to talk to the people who understand the matchup relatively well, rather than trying to convince the entire board.

Personally, I think it's a 65:35 to 60:40 ratio (leaning closer to 65:35), and I agree with you quite a few points, but it's more constructive to help the Fox boards figure out what they can do, rather than just pointing at it and going "LOOK! SEE?"

 

[Steel]

Hey, I'm here to keep stuff accurate. I'm all for you guys discussing tricks that Fox has against MK and how he can win the match up.

It's when I see people post these tricks, and then follow it up with "and so I think it's probably around even" is when I feel the need to correct them.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Zhamy, I see what you're trying to say, but I honestly don't see that save a few posts or parts of posts. For the most part, I see people arguing that the match-up is even or much closer than once thought, and explaining why.

I see some people saying, "Well if he does this, you can do this," but the overall point of their posts seems to be "the match-up is even or the match-up is close."

Plus, information can still be wrong even if the purpose is different. When someone's saying being above MK is safe and a decent option, and Tornado and Shuttle Loop aren't safe for MK, then I'm compelled to argue otherwise even if he's saying it to better inform other people, because either way, it's false information.