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Match-Up Export #1: Meta Knight | Complete!!
- Thread starter Conviction
- Start date
Palpi
Smash Hero
We have gathered all of that info, that is why match up ratios matter considering the one on the first page of this thread is completely false. Facts are facts, and the numbers don't match up at all.
What. No, seriously, what?
DaomarIsBear
Smash Journeyman
So in short, it comes down to the Fox player's ability to camp and space, and the MK player's ability to not let us do that. MK has a much easier time doing his job, so we're calling it somewhere between 35:65-30:70 in favor of Metaknight?
On a completely unrelated note, this has to be the first forum I've been a part of where the mods regularly take part in discussions. I can't be sure whether this is cool, intimidating, or both.
On a completely unrelated note, this has to be the first forum I've been a part of where the mods regularly take part in discussions. I can't be sure whether this is cool, intimidating, or both.
Not exactly. This collective "we" thing doesn't really work - form your own opinion on the matchup, state it, and stick with it. People can speak for themselves. (Admittely, they can't do it welll all the time, but they can do it.)
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
He's basically saying that the match up ratio on the first post (55:45) is wrong. I think.
Well if he's not, then I'll say it. The match up ratio on the first post is wrong.
Palpi
Smash Hero
That is what I am saying. 
Fox can't handle MK nearly as well as Diddy, Snake, and Wario do.
Fox can't handle MK nearly as well as Diddy, Snake, and Wario do.
Curaga
Smash Ace
I didn't realize passive ****talk was in style. =/ But yeah, not the place for this.
No actually. Completely serious.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I would like to use this thread here for Fox's strategies, which stages are good, possible secondaries and all the other things that are outlined as in-depth topics in the OP, thus following the topic title.
Please continue the matchup ratio discussion in this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246227
Thank you.
Please continue the matchup ratio discussion in this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246227
Thank you.
Curaga
Smash Ace
Not really.. and I don't understand why you have to freak out like that.
All moves have ending lag, if he's right there, you'd wait for that moment to grab/attack whatever. What would ANY character do? If you were playing Fox, what would you do? Put down the controller and cry? Declare "Obviously, 3 of yours moves have an almost instant start up time, I concede to you."? No, you wouldn't
I already said: "If he's downtilting us, we get the **** out. We run the **** away And we try to shoot/do something in the meantime." If thats not an option, we use one of our moves, because clearly, they are the only moves we have at our disposal.. and what a lot of us are trying to say is that they work quite well. Its not a matter of "How do you think that will work?" I enter tournaments, I play serious competitive players from my region.
These are tactics we HAVE to use, and it isn't so one-sided. Its not so desperate or terrible in actually gameplay
The way you are explaining Meta Knight "HE'S DOWNTILTING YOU, HE AUTO WINS" is silly, and my answer is actually not a silly one. Fox doesn't have MK's move set. Therefore, I have to use one of Fox's moves to react to one of MK's moves. Oh yeah, hope is lost.
I know it was brought up that we shouldn't bring up other characters when in this match-up.. but why the hell is it so ridiculous to think of Fox in any positive light, when theres Falco who's dead even with MK? Pressing the B button stuns the opponent and his down-B has more lag/range. Doesn't our upclose game/speed out match most of his tools against MetaKnight aside from that? Plus, we can actually recover.
Like.. theres no point in explaining anything anymore, because on paper, EVERYTHING MetaKnight does is going to look better.
So lets try looking at this from many different angles.
Ok seriously. Stop trying to be Emblem Lord and Ankoku. I don't know what it is with you but seriously? flips my cape back? That was an Emblem Lord quote...........just because he used it a LONG time ago doesn't mean people don't remember it. Seriously you need to stop sucking d*** all the time.
I mean really if EL and Spammerer wanted to get a nut off they would just call Steel2nd and he would be over there and on his knees in a quick ten minutes.
I remember back in the summer of 08'. Fenrir and I were pushing for Fox-Marth to be a 6-4 for Marth but Nooooooooooooooo "MARTH HAZ A FAIR ANDZ A DTITL AND ZONES FOX AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN Do lolololololololololoolololooollo ITS 7-3 MARTH STUPID FOX PLAYERZ lololololollolo". A few months later and wouldn't you know the Marth boards have it at 6-4.....funny.
Then there was the whole debacle with "SNAKE ***** FOX" in which we gave specific examples of how Fox could approach the matchup and even got outside opinions from well known players saying the matchup was close to even........but no. Emblem Lord declared it to be so and the Marth players as usual got on their knees and began the suckfest.
It's like a freaking prison on the Marth boards for Emblem Lord.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
This doesn't really make sense.
I know what you're trying to say, that Fox doesn't auto-lose just because one of MK's attacks is good on paper. The thing is, the way you're saying you get past it doesn't make sense. So if an MK is D-tilting your shield, do you expect to OoS U-smash, OoS Jab, shieldgrab, or jump over him and D-air? You can't, because those attacks either don't have enough range to beat his D-tilt and will just get punished by another D-tilt, or those attacks take too long to start-up, so MK can punish with something else.
It's not about looking at Fox in a negative light or saying, "LOL IT'S MK YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING." It's seriously that in some situations, there is very little that you can do. If he's D-tilting your shield, you can either move your shield, eat D-tilts, hope it doesn't poke you, and try to shieldgrab if he doesn't stop D-tilting, you can roll in which will get punished, roll out which might get punished if not timed well, grab if the D-tilt is misspaced, or try to attack with something that doesn't have the range to hit him and get punished.
Don't pull ad hominem and say, "You're just looking at Fox in a negative light, realistically he can do things but of course since MK's the opponent everyone thinks he auto-loses!" Situations like that actually do happen in real play. If I'm Diddy playing a Marth, and he fairs my shield when I don't have a banana, should I try to grab him or roll away? No, I most likely get OoS upBd. I can't say, "Well realistically you can F-air or something," because realistically, no it doesn't happen.
If on paper, you can't beat a good attack with something that takes twice as long to start-up and has half the range, you won't be able to do it in an actual game.
I honestly don't believe (and I don't think many do) that Falco is dead even with MK. 55:45 maybe IMO, but I honestly don't know about the match-up. Lasers having stun does help a lot with zoning, along with a 2 frame decent ranged jab, good priority aerials, a 0-40 CG and set-ups into other attacks off of D-throw, etc. I honestly don't know the match-up, so don't take anything that I say for word.
That's great.
Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with
1) The actual Marth match-up.
2) The actual Snake match-up.
3) The actual Meta Knight match-up.
This is a completely unnecessary post and should be saved for a PM. It's just ad hominem and trying to say, "look it happened with Marth and Snake why not MK?"
Why does there have to be a seperate thread for the match-up ratio discussion and how to play the match-up? It's not a bad idea, it just feels like both could be confined in one thread, or at least how to play the match-up should be in the new thread, because all this thread has been was the ratio, and it's basically forcing an abrupt topic change that not everyone will adhere to.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Because of people like you.
Or, to be a bit more specific:
This thread is the official matchup export. It is supposed to include EVERY ASPECT of this matchup, not only discussion about the ratio. Since the almost only discussion here is about the ratio, and nothing else, I clipped this part of the discussion off and put it into an own thread.
I won't let the people lamenting about the digit hijack the general matchup discussion Fox vs. Meta Knight.
Curaga
Smash Ace
Thanks for this post.
And yeah, I admitted previously I'm not amazing at putting all this stuff together in a pretty package, but I try to get the meaning through. XDIf the MK is properly spacing his tilts, then yes. Most obviously doing a move that we know won't hit is plain silly. I wouldn't really consider ever OoS U-smashing an MK unless he's in such an awkward and obvious position where it will be gauranteed. I think if my opponent is spaced correctly, short hop Dair on top of him would be a good answer, if and only if I have the space to perform it so I didn't land in front/on him.
For my particular play style, I would probably roll away or jump/hop away. Maybe perform a N-air, or D-air while retreating (as in, not purposing aiming for a hit) just to try to cover myself a little if he advances quickly/B-moves or whatever. Upon landing I probably would not hold shield unless I was going for a shield grab; I would most likely try to spot dodge because I'd think at that point a grab or dash-grab from MK would be imminent.
If MK was not properly spacing, I'd assume he is building towards a grab or a short-hop aerial, maybe even a smash attack. From here, we can jab cancel(jc)-shine, jc-utilt, jab->grab, straight up grab, if space/time is feasable pivot grab, d-tilt or f-tilt(angled down I think might clank with MK's d-tilt? I will investigate). I think short-hop neutral airs would work far better than forward-air considering we will be out prioritized and/or punished naturally. Grab release up-smash or jc-shine-up smash could be used for a kill, or our d-smash is fairly quick as well linked or not linked with our other attacks. If not in kill %, down/back-throw into lasers would add on some % or if unexpected d-throw into a f-air.. f-air still being incredibly risky. I still prefer lasers.
Not to beat a dead horse with the Falco comparison but I think its relative to how this match-up should be considered seeing how most consider Falco more of a threat. Our lasers just add on % and a little quicker, but yes lack of stun I see being the big decider when not in close combat. Our U-tilt could also be looked at in the way that Falco's grabs work, although admittedly grab is probably a little easier.. although its much easier to get a u-tilt than most think, our jabs are effective and can link into other moves as well, I personally think our array of aerials are much more effective.. especially against MK. (Maybe not f-air so much.. but Falco's f-air is kind of terrible too.) And I think we have 2-3 set ups out of our Down throw, but most likely in high percents we'd rely on a release or a u-throw.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
It was bound to happen.
People originally were claiming that the match-up was even or close, and posted their reasons why. I disagreed, claimed that the match-up was winnable but not close, and posted my reasons why. The two correlate with each other so closely that it's hard to have one thread about the ratio and one thread about what to do in the match-up.
Even in the latter, disagreements still will and can happen. For example, Fenrir said that being above MK was safe, and his Tornado wasn't safe to use against Fox. I disagreed with the statement. Even if I felt that the match-up was 55:45, I would have still disagreed with that particular statement, and we would have argued about it either way. However, I feel that the match-up is a bit worse for Fox than that; that doesn't mean that I'm derailing the topic because I disagree with what he said.
It's not just people like me either; very few people posted in this thread with the sole intent to list what Fox could do against MK. It's like what Steel said, people posted things like that, but then ended their post with, "And that's why I think the match-up is even" or "That's why I think MK ***** Fox." The overall intent of people's post was what they think the match-up ratio is, and why. I disagree with the why and what they think.
I guarantee you that if someone says that being above MK is ideal and safe in a thread specifically for what you can do in the match-up, I would disagree. I think that information is wrong. The only difference between there and here is that there, I think the information is wrong, and here, I think the information and the overall statement is wrong.
It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it would have been fine to just say something like, "Talk about what Fox can actually do in the match-up more instead of just the ratio," (which honestly, an in-depth ratio discussion will include a lot of that), or just make the other thread be about what you can do about the match-up. Since a lot of content here was already about the ratio, making people continue the same discussion in a different thread and bringing new discussion here is inefficient; it's just easier to have the ratio discussion stay here and the different thread about what you can do.
Again, SH D-air probably wouldn't work; MK would have time to perform U-tilt, U-smash, shield, or retreating aerial before you can jump out of your shield and SH D-air.Thanks for this post.
If the MK is properly spacing his tilts, then yes. Most obviously doing a move that we know won't hit is plain silly. I wouldn't really consider ever OoS U-smashing an MK unless he's in such an awkward and obvious position where it will be gauranteed. I think if my opponent is spaced correctly, short hop Dair on top of him would be a good answer, if and only if I have the space to perform it so I didn't land in front/on him.
I agree.
A regular shield grab or jab anything would be the only thing's I'd consider, and I'm not too sure about jab because you have to take the frames to actually drop your shield before you can jab. Pivot grab would most likely get you attacked in most situations (if he tries to N-air, F-air, another D-tilt, or D-smash, which would probably be his most used options. D-tilt and F-tilt are too slow on start-up to attack him at that range. The only attacks that MK has that clank are dash attack and glide attack; his regular sword's priority is too large, and can't clank.
I agree with SH N-airs being better than F-airs. Grab release U-smash won't and shouldn't work against an MK with any knowledge of the match-up, as they have to jump release for that to happen, so they just don't press jump. I'm pretty sure that JC-Shine>U-smash won't work (i believe shine u-smash only combos at a specific percent, and I don't remember if it was against MK or not, and I think MK can upB before the shine comes out). D-smash might work, but it can't be done OoS (same thing with jabs) so I'm not sure. Throw to lasers wouild work, D-throw to F-air realistically shouldn't, as there's ample time to punish on prediction/reaction.
Fox's set-ups from D-throw aren't guaranteed. Otherwise, I don't know enough about the Falco vs. MK match-up to really say anything.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
It might be inefficient, but saying "Well, we discussed in this thread about the ratio, so this thread now is the ratio thread and everything else should be in the other thread" is inefficient, too.
I already have asked numerous times to keep the guideline about matchup discussions I made in the OP in mind when discussing, and asked several times to extend the discussion and keep in mind what's practical and whatnot, so saying "Well you could say that" is wrong, because I already said it and it still didn't happen.
Don't expect me to turn the general matchup export for Meta Knight into the "Ratio Discussion" and the new thread into the "Everything else regarding the matchup but the ratio"-discussion.
If this thread continues to go like that - especially with postings like the usual ones of Palpi and Menomaniacal - I will ask the staff to close it and restart the discussion after we've done every other single character in the game.
I already have asked numerous times to keep the guideline about matchup discussions I made in the OP in mind when discussing, and asked several times to extend the discussion and keep in mind what's practical and whatnot, so saying "Well you could say that" is wrong, because I already said it and it still didn't happen.
Don't expect me to turn the general matchup export for Meta Knight into the "Ratio Discussion" and the new thread into the "Everything else regarding the matchup but the ratio"-discussion.
If this thread continues to go like that - especially with postings like the usual ones of Palpi and Menomaniacal - I will ask the staff to close it and restart the discussion after we've done every other single character in the game.
Curaga
Smash Ace
There's a thread in these forums in relation to grab-release U-smash on Meta.. some ways of tricking an opponent and other things such as holding their feet above ground.. its not something I've mastered so I'm not the best to represent it.
Anyway, replies in orange.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
JJC dsmash works lolwut
when i was playing hype yesterday i realized one major flaw fox had against a meta knight... Despite the fact hype's metaknight ***** my fox i realized this With proper/perfect spacing fox get's ***** hard, the Dair on shuttleloop thing works pretty well but it's fairly situational and the air release upsmash work like a charm .
JJC and tilt's are mandatory but if the meta knight can space well, good luck trying to land them.
Play a very very campy/hit n' run fox and you find it easier than trying to be agressive, which is what i used to recommend against a meta knight
.JJC and tilt's are mandatory but if the meta knight can space well, good luck trying to land them.
Play a very very campy/hit n' run fox and you find it easier than trying to be agressive, which is what i used to recommend against a meta knight
except that's an extremely simplified version of what I was saying. MK has a number of pokes he can throw out that you can't really punish, just run away from...you can only do that a couple of times before you run out of stage to run on and must confront him. fox's ability to run away from meta knight is quite limited.
Falco isn't even with MK lmao, at best he's 45:55, and he has lasers that stun, a chain grab, longer range on his physical attacks, and a nearly lagless retreating tactic. Falco can actually control space and reset his camping reliably. And MK covers fox's recovery options just as well as falco's. and falco still loses 45:55 or 40:60.
they should have left it at 7:3 or 65:35, marth destroys fox too.
snake not as much so, he's a lot more vulnerable to bait and punish styles than the swordsmen are, he's actually left open when he whiffs attacks.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Falco can't do much to a dair camping / air planking metaknigh though.
If you have to use firefox and you get back to the stage, the metaknight made a terrible mistake. MK's nair eats up illusion.
If you have to use firefox and you get back to the stage, the metaknight made a terrible mistake. MK's nair eats up illusion.
I already sent you a PM but, was my information wrong or something? lol
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Is it me or is a lot of this MU discussion assuming that MK whiffs all of his attacks?
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
It kinda has to be if he whiffs all his attacks. MK will always be on the offensive. It's up to fox to block and punish. If he can't do anything than fox's shield breaks or we get ***** trying to fight back.
The grab release thing works against MK. If he doesn't want to mash buttons, we get more grab damage. If he does struggle, then usmash.
The grab release thing works against MK. If he doesn't want to mash buttons, we get more grab damage. If he does struggle, then usmash.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
If he JUMP releases.
If he ground releases, he's safe. So he just mashes buttons that aren't jump, and he's fine.
If he ground releases, he's safe. So he just mashes buttons that aren't jump, and he's fine.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
Bad wording. The fact that he can get grab release usmashed is a negative
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Yeah it's a bad thing to have on yourself, but it's really easy to avoid. All he has to do is not press jump when he's mashing buttons to get out of a grab, and he's fine. It's much better to just throw him than hope he's stupid, messes up, and jump releases.
Unless you can grab him from the air (and I'm not 100% sure on this one) you can't force a jump release on him. And most likely, you won't be able to grab him in the air unless he makes a pretty major mistake.
Unless you can grab him from the air (and I'm not 100% sure on this one) you can't force a jump release on him. And most likely, you won't be able to grab him in the air unless he makes a pretty major mistake.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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If anybody actually thinks I've "led" the Fox boards to any decision or technique or anything, that's laugh-worthy. everybody here has their own opinions, and regardless of what I say or how I type, that hasn't changed...
Don't really appreciate that statement, to be honest...
I'm going to post a huge post in here probably tomorrow... weekend has been busy, so I haven't read every reply or anything... but I'll respond with what I know.. just, given the number of things I need to cover, I'll just post a huge one later.
Don't really appreciate that statement, to be honest...
I'm going to post a huge post in here probably tomorrow... weekend has been busy, so I haven't read every reply or anything... but I'll respond with what I know.. just, given the number of things I need to cover, I'll just post a huge one later.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Say what you want about me but don't you dare insult my friends or imply anything disrespectful about them.
Try this **** again and I will get a mod to give you an infraction.
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Be more mature in the future.
Seriously, this was in VERY bad taste and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Also I'm sensing a little hostility towards me...am I wrong?
You mad son?
You mad?
hahahahahaha!!!!
Ah...but seriously cut the crap. I rarely post here anymore so w/e beef you have with me please deal with it.....or don't...
And with that
*flips my cape back as I walk away
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Stop getting off-topic now, all of you.
Emblem Lord, you should've sent him a PM about it like Steel did. His posting in here was wrong, but it doesn't need to be replied to. If you have to contribute in the matchup Meta Knight vs. Fox, feel free to post, but everything else is not needed.
Everyone else, please get back to topic.
Emblem Lord, you should've sent him a PM about it like Steel did. His posting in here was wrong, but it doesn't need to be replied to. If you have to contribute in the matchup Meta Knight vs. Fox, feel free to post, but everything else is not needed.
Everyone else, please get back to topic.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Sorry bro, but the way I see it is this. When someone goes out of their way to say something personal it's clearly a challenge. Either that or they just foolish.
Either way I'm not gonna back down from one of my detractors just because things might get a little off topic.
But you asked me if I have anything to contribute....alright...it's been awhile.
Prove to me that this match is even or 55/45 MK's advantage.
I think MK wins this match BTW.
This will be fun. I truly believe that I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MK possesses a solid advantage in this match.
So, present your arguments in a logical fashion and I will respond in kind.
So it's EL vs the fox boards in the match-up discussion. Not only will I show MK wins but I will also show Fox's viable options and how he should be playing this match.
Shall we begin?
Either way I'm not gonna back down from one of my detractors just because things might get a little off topic.
But you asked me if I have anything to contribute....alright...it's been awhile.
Prove to me that this match is even or 55/45 MK's advantage.
I think MK wins this match BTW.
This will be fun. I truly believe that I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that MK possesses a solid advantage in this match.
So, present your arguments in a logical fashion and I will respond in kind.
So it's EL vs the fox boards in the match-up discussion. Not only will I show MK wins but I will also show Fox's viable options and how he should be playing this match.
Shall we begin?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I've had some very signifigant and public disagreements with Emblem Lord, you can check my back posts.
Yet, he's definitely right, at the top of the metagame, spacing and zoning is a very very significant advantage.
What does fox have to force up close and personal spacing? Nothing.
MK can option-select fox with either ftilt or tornado (or uptilt if from straight above, or just tornado and move back), and there's really nothing that fox can do about it.
Sure, Fox has options once he gets inside, but fox really doesn't have a reliable way to force MK to commit, therefore allowing him to get inside, and once Fox commits, he gets knocked away.
Unlike Zelda, MK can actually stay in foxes space reliably because he's fast, and hard to bait.
No, this match-up is significantly in MK's favor, regardless of what Emblem Lord thinks.
edit: Nothing against EL obviously, just saying, if I disagreed with EL on this match-up, I'd debate him on it. The majority of the marth boards are like that in my opinion, we think for ourselves.
I wasn't debating the Fox-MK matchup lol. I was just posting off topic for whoever knows what reason. It's like a 65-35 MK advantage. Address your points to Fenrir or something, he would be a lot more qualified to talk about the matchup than me.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Ah, it's not fun if you agree with me guys.
Spoilsports.
Force Frontal by Chicken
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This is Bowyer, btw...
Imo this matchup is 45-55 MK's favor and I think fox has the potential to possibly go even or have a slight advantage in the matchup. I haven't played the matchup in a long while so I can't really put into words how to fight the matchup because it's been so long. Hopefully I'll chill with Judge soon and I can get back here. Fox can't run away from MK very well and you can't spam lasers but fox can punish extremely small holes that other characters can't, jump very high and follow up attacks well, and kill early...
Imo it's one of the most complicated matchups in the game. You always have to think many moves ahead and I feel like many situations are like a chess game. Fox trying to land, MK trying to land, and fox trying to follow up moves are all extremely complicated parts of the matchup and I think fox has the potential to come out ahead with it.
Most characters metagames didn't start taking off until mid summer... and a lot of character metagames haven't even started to get half way decent because of a lack of good people playing that characters.
We are just now starting to get to the true brawl metagame and figuring out many situations and proper positioning that characters just can't get out of for a while and people are just now really understanding how to play the game. This game is very deep and will continue to grow for a while.
Also, Fox slightly beats Marth. If you think you're tools are better and thus fox can't possibly win, then you aren't giving enough credit to our speed and you don't realize the holes we can punish.
Imo this matchup is 45-55 MK's favor and I think fox has the potential to possibly go even or have a slight advantage in the matchup. I haven't played the matchup in a long while so I can't really put into words how to fight the matchup because it's been so long. Hopefully I'll chill with Judge soon and I can get back here. Fox can't run away from MK very well and you can't spam lasers but fox can punish extremely small holes that other characters can't, jump very high and follow up attacks well, and kill early...
Imo it's one of the most complicated matchups in the game. You always have to think many moves ahead and I feel like many situations are like a chess game. Fox trying to land, MK trying to land, and fox trying to follow up moves are all extremely complicated parts of the matchup and I think fox has the potential to come out ahead with it.
*Note my response to this statement is talking in general, not just fox:
Most characters metagames didn't start taking off until mid summer... and a lot of character metagames haven't even started to get half way decent because of a lack of good people playing that characters.
We are just now starting to get to the true brawl metagame and figuring out many situations and proper positioning that characters just can't get out of for a while and people are just now really understanding how to play the game. This game is very deep and will continue to grow for a while.
Also, Fox slightly beats Marth. If you think you're tools are better and thus fox can't possibly win, then you aren't giving enough credit to our speed and you don't realize the holes we can punish.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Potential now effects match up ratios? (joking)
almost everything you said goes against the same reasons why other people thought this match up was close.
almost everything you said goes against the same reasons why other people thought this match up was close.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
MK should just camp and poke to force approaches, once he gets in range for that, he has no need to do anything except respond to fox and poke, neither of which requires enough commitment for fox to beat except on prediction.
Fox can't force marth to create holes. Again, Marth can poke, causing shield pressure, forcing fox to approach, and Marth can beat out all fox's approaches.
SONIC can force people to commit enough to create actual holes, fox is just not fast enough against characters with this level of range and disjointedness because they have the time to react to and beat out the approaches.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Have top fox's been beating top marth's lately or something? Did I miss something?