Most Recent Japanese tier list

[DMG]

Character tools don't lie, my son.

 

[xDD-Master]

What if you're wrong?

Whats the point of turning this thread into a USA vs Japan discussion? Or Luigi vs Kirby discussion.
Japan has their own tier list, based on their opinion, same as the US.
It's still interesting to see their point of view on things, and even more, if we get the background information for why they do so.
It doesn't even matter what is correct and what not, because it's how they think about the characters.
And while you probably disagree, others may agree with them, because they like their playstyle more or something like that.
What really is pissing ME OFF, are the USA vs. Japan discussions because they will always end in a meaningsless discussion, until the best of USA and Japan will compete in a battle.

We all happy again now?


I also would really like to see up-to-date japanese Match-Up ratios

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Character tools don't lie, my son.

It's official, you're kind of dumb.

Character tools lie all the time. OMG HOW DO I BEAT ROB HES SO GOOD AHHHHHHH

AHHHH DEDEDE IS SO GOOD HIS GRABS DO LIKE 16% AHHHHHHH

Character tools lie all the damn time, it's why Kirby is now like 20th on the tier list when he used to be 8th or something. It's why Zelda is Ganon Tier when she used to be better than Zero Suit Samus. It's why Wolf used to be high tier and isn't anymore. Hell, it's why Marth is still top tier (lol). Your assessments of character "tools" don't mean snap unless someone can prove they're correct. Now get Wario out of A tier.

 

[DMG]

Wario deserves to be in A tier, unless you are talking on broader terms to have Diddy/Falco/Snake in their own tier, which is a different story.

 

[xDD-Master]

lol wario is the best character in the game besides MK & Diddy. But could you discuss this somewhere else pls?

 

[DMG]

You can't compare character ideas and analysis that came out when the game was brand new to talking about a MU 3 years after the game came out. Results were also different back then too: I remember seeing Pit and Dedede all the time in tournament. But what happened? People looked at the characters after awhile, and realized "Oh hey, even though Dedede can CG for a lot of damage, he gets screwed over by people camping him or CGing him back".


Results don't tell you much about a character compared to looking at a character's tools. What's more informative: a table of results with M2K in first place, or videos of him playing in the tournament? Bingo.

 

[Laem]

What's more informative: a table of results with M2K in first place, or videos of him playing in the tournament? Bingo.

What's more informative: a hypothetical table of 'good' results of pit players(perhaps a japanese one, none of us know) or videos of these pits playing in tournament?

What im saying is we can all agree mk is best. Saying 'Mid tier character better than other mid tier character based on 'character tools" isn't all too possible, and you, DMG, definitely don't know.
Not on your own.

 

[DMG]

If you're talking about pin point accuracy, no. But certain comparisons should be obvious which character is better.

If you ask me which character is better between Pit or ROB, as you said it would be a bit hard to say for certain "Well this guy is better than him". But when your two characters have a gap that's... obvious... then IDK what to tell you besides "Yes this guy is clearly better than this guy."

Kirby vs Luigi for example: it shouldn't take a 200 page report to look and say "Well yeah, Kirby is better". Comparisons like THAT I think are easy calls. I'm not trying to say Luigi is clearly better than Wolf, or Shiek is ahead of PT, but easy **** that shouldn't be hard to judge.

 

[Nitrix]

I thought this thread was interesting and had some intelligent posts. Then I read that Pit is a gimmick.

....what?

 

[Meru.]

It's official, you're kind of dumb.

Character tools lie all the time. OMG HOW DO I BEAT ROB HES SO GOOD AHHHHHHH

AHHHH DEDEDE IS SO GOOD HIS GRABS DO LIKE 16% AHHHHHHH

Character tools lie all the damn time, it's why Kirby is now like 20th on the tier list when he used to be 8th or something. It's why Zelda is Ganon Tier when she used to be better than Zero Suit Samus. It's why Wolf used to be high tier and isn't anymore. Hell, it's why Marth is still top tier (lol). Your assessments of character "tools" don't mean snap unless someone can prove they're correct. Now get Wario out of A tier.

It's the same for results?

Zelda used to do quite well in tourneys. R.O.B.'s and GW's performances were top tier amazing. Sonic and Ness used to do worse than piss. ZERO SUIT SAMUS didn't use to perform better than mid.

Just because our perception of a character's tools or results changes, doesn't mean they're invalid.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I have just sent message to rain.

I hope he responds.

Last time when larry or I asked (I can't remember which) he talked to other top japanese players and made a blog.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd love to know who these top players he's going to talk to are. Can you ask him for names?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's the same for results?

Zelda used to do quite well in tourneys. R.O.B.'s and GW's performances were top tier amazing. Sonic and Ness used to do worse than piss. ZERO SUIT SAMUS didn't use to perform better than mid.

Just because our perception of a character's tools or results changes, doesn't mean they're invalid.

I can't be sure about Europe but I don't think Zelda or ROB ever had any degree of success in the US, which is why they ultimately dropped like a rock. We looked at ROB's tools and decided he must be amazing but time has shown he's mediocre at best. There wasn't some revelation or discovery that made him worse (unless you count his hilariously awful footstool animation), he just can't place top 5 at a national level. Ever. Because our tools analyses ultimately proved wrong. It happens. I just get a little annoyed when DMG acts like it can't happen again even though it is STILL happening and happens all the time. Look at Marth. He fails at dealing with campy playstyles, he's light, he has non-existant horizontal recovery, and laggy kill moves. Disjointed aerials and up+b was thought to be enough, but in the US, Marth remains unsuccessful relative to the rest of A tier. Wario, too, although that's for different reasons.

This has gone a little off the rails, but I guess I'm just trying to offer an explanation for why Japan has such faith in results. Pit is top 5 because he places like a top 5 character. Other than "magic" or "our players just aren't very good" there's no other likely explanation, so they accept the one in front of them. In the US, we give excuses for our pet characters like Marth, claiming that our players just aren't good enough to use him correctly instead of just accepting that they aren't very good, or are good, or whatever.

So yeah, there's no magic to Pit as a top 5 character. He places like a top 5 character, their metagame has grown with Pit as a national threat, so top 5 he stays. Done.

 

[DMG]

Most changes in character evaluations that were significant, were to the downside. That was because people originally thought the characters were good in the beginning years of Brawl. Look at Snake: at one point he was making more money in tournament than MK. Now look at him: some people wouldn't even place him top 3 or top 5.


Over time, people better realize how good or bad characters are. You can't use the argument that current perceptions of characters are probably bad because there were cases of bad analysis in the far past. If you wanna use the results argument, results back then looked wack as **** too. Like I pointed out earlier, Snake used to make a lot more money than MK for a stretch. Results can't tell you everything about a character either. Pit and ROB used to do well, now look at those sad, sad ****s.


What happened? Of course nothing MAJOR hit a lot of characters, but time make people wise to the fact that a lot of characters who were thought to be good, were actually just above average, and characters we thought were **** turned out to be pretty good. I still remember some tier lists with Wario in low tier because of his range rofl. Was that through sheer results? No. Was that through sheer character analysis? No. In all honesty, it was a combination of both. But when you look at that combination, it's not tilting towards results at all.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I didn't argue that, though. I argued that our current perception of a few characters could be wrong and just insisting they're correct at every turn is insane when said characters can't place is stupid when we have PAST EXAMPLES of situations where we were wrong!

Again, good example is Marth. Another good example is Peach. Both characters have really good players. In the case of Marth, can't place better than B tier characters. In the case of Peach, can't make it out of pools. But, this community insists that Marth is top 5 and insists Peach has some hidden potential. He isn't, she doesn't. Marth is low B tier and Peach at #19 is generous.

So yeah, say what you want about Pit at #5 in Japan or Pikachu in low tier, but IMO they have the right idea. We always say that if you think a character is better, go to tournaments and prove it. But, the same thing applies in reverse, too. You can't "have it both ways."

 

[Browny]

Gotta protect the status quo man

BBR would rather stick to their old beliefs, trying to convince everyone (especially themselves) that they are, and always have been right about how good characters are. Accepting change would show that player skill proves their 'knowledge' completely wrong, cant have that. Only reason a character ever moves is if people in the BBR believe they should move (obviously) however whether they choose to accept proof of character viability or not is random. Some characters drop while others around them go up with nothing showing this.

DMG its not about 'omg results should mean everything', its entirely about double standards, 'flavours of the month', popularity and status quo. All of these which have nothing to do with character viability seem to infect the tier list and have an extremely large effect on it. The brawl tier list can not be separated into the simple aspects of (weighted) results + theory matchups + tools, since the above 4 bias' (popularity etc) sometimes outweigh the supposed tier list factors.

 

[DMG]

Some things I could understand: Marth as top 5 is definitely a stretch, and Peach is doubtful, but that's not a reason to lowball them to hell. Marth... low B tier? You think he's no better than someone like Lucario? That's not hard to fathom because it's a different opinion, but because that looks very wrong on any level besides a pure results standpoint. Peach may not be doing amazing, but we're not throwing her under the bus and having Luigi chug on up above her anytime soon either.

 

[Lord Chair]

Note that the Japanese metagame may or may not be ahead of the American metagame.

 

[Raziek]

And that they may or may not be developing in entirely different directions. <_>

 

[Mew2King]

Honestly, besides Pit and Pikachu, I think at least half of Japan's list is better than ours. U.S. always overrates marth and underrates Fox/ICs imo. *shrug*

also u cant just use the brood argument. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the Japanese are really good, but you can't just be like brood beat me and ally so he's the best or something like that, since brood lost 8 sets to 6 other american players that we have winning records over (dehf twice, adhd twice?, dabuz, anti-pools, chibo-pools, do not remember if there was one more or not)have the 2 tournaments he was in U.S. for, but me and ally usually lose to a small handful of people (his handful way bigger than mine but that might change now), with half of our tournament history losses comes from each other over past 2 years. Also, while I think brood is very skilled I also think I lacked matchup exp at that point in time since Rich beat 2-0 at the next MLG after Apex just by copying Brood's tactics and after beating me told me i have a mental block against olimar. While I don't know if that is true or not, I base conclusions off all the information that I know so it might be possible. I do think experience was a small factor though. But honestly I probably was better back at Apex and MLG than I am now (I have not really been playing at all partially due to lack of motivation [except I enter most weekend tournaments], and even though you guys do not consider it important, I consider controller important, and my best one was a lot better back then, so this is some of the reasons that I think this would be the case) so that's not to say I'd win in a rematch anyway, he might **** me badly in a rematch (I'd put money on Ally winning a rematch tho) but the point I am saying is you can't base a persons overall skill from "he got 2nd" without looking at every other piece of knowledge we have, which is something most players don't seem to do. They see playerA beat B so B is better). I have been keeping up a little bit with Japan's scene and I like a lot of their ideas with some of their tactics. I think 9b would do pretty well here most likely, but I still wouldn't say Japan is better than U.S. - we have too many top players of different characters so right now I'd say that's probably unlikely based off the videos I've seen so far. Also, I'm making personal plans with the Japanese to bring a lot of them to Apex and if possible one or two to Genesis2 (small chance but it is possible, Apex3 is almost a 100% though) so that should be pretty interesting. I think either ally or 9b have a good chance of winning apex3 and are definitely the 2 favorite to win (if not maybe a diddy/olimar player, or anti [but I don't see anti beating Ally or 9b]). I can't see any other possible outcome for that event than what I just said unless Masashi ****s us all up or something.

edit - 3 years ago I said diddy, olimar, falco were amazing characters and all top tier. No one believed me

 

[Mew2King]

The Japanese Pits are amazing, they have a stagelist conducive to Pit's playstyle, it's actually pretty perfect.

Also from what I've seen Japanese MKs just aren't at the level of NA ones, and MK is one of the main things keeping Pit down.

I do agree with this, however, I also think that my early domination and constant traveling, teaching and discussion with other top MKs, and videos have made MK's metagame advance way faster than it would have if I was not as dominant and active in the tournament scene. Dojo, Tyrant (a LOT overall), Lee (a lot in a short period of time) Anti, Inui, DSF, redhalberd, seibrik, Ksizzle, and a few other MKs I have either played a lot with, or talked a lot to with. This excludes videos. I think MK's personal advancement as a character is a lot more than it is with most other characters. I remember back at whobo11 I was fighting a pit player in TX (about 2 years ago) and he kept powershielding my attacks into F smash, doing a lot of damage to me each time, then camped me. Back then I never knew pit could use such effective strategies. We don't truely know how good these other characters are, because hardly anybody gives them a chance. So I don't think you should all judge as quickly and easily as you currently do. In my view a lot of characters have a lot of hidden potential that most people do not know about

 

[Mew2King]

Europeans are so quiet compared to Americans, how can you even say this? (Directed to Ally about Gluttony)

And still it isnt even a good excuse...

You don't know ally very well. He just says what he thinks [is true], and that's it. It's very simple. You may hate what he says but he only says his opinion. It's kind of the same thing I do.

 

[Yung Mei]

triple post by m2k


after brood getting 2nd at apex2, im gonna assume some crazy **** will happen at Apex 3 like Pit taking top 5 or something :V





The international community needs to get together more often imo, we cant just expect everyone else to come to the US for tourneys, our players need to go to their tourneys too ._.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I like brownys debate post. Just throwing that out there. :D

And that they may or may not be developing in entirely different directions. <_>

Thank you good sir. Its irritating when someone says "Japan's metagame is more advanced then ours." Really you can't compare the two very well. The stages they have to select from greatly influences how well characters do in there tier. Pit being the best example. '3' it seems like they just chose to focus on diffrent characters metagame then ours. Olimars a good example too. Lotsa olimar players that place high.

 

[EpixAura]

I want to say the Japanese metagame is more advanced than ours, but the gap is so small I don't really care that much one way or the other.
However, I do believe the Japanese metagame is "better." Characters like Pit and IC's, who have glaringly obvious advantages, are receiving well deserved respect. Marth and Wario are also given respectable, but uninflated positions. Their tier list is the result of a more diverse and logical metagame, whereas our tier list is based largely on theories which evidence never fully proves or disproves.
Also, neutrals make MK less broke + the Japanese people actually have souls -> Less usage of MK -> More usage of Pit rarely seen characters -> Ideal, logical metagame, and I WANT TO SEE SOME JAPANESE MATCHUP RATIOS!

 

[DMG]

I'm sorry American players have no soul in this game

Welcome to Brawl

 

[EpixAura]

I'm sorry American players have no soul in this game

Welcome to Brawl

^New sig.

America: So a Pit main walks into a bar. It hit him right in his head, because anyone who uses Pit is just that stupid as to walk directly into a bar. All the other smashers in the room laugh.

Japan: So a Pit main walks into a bar. He proceeds to defeat every other smasher in the room, because Pit is a respectable force in the metagame. He proceeds to pay for his sake and takes his leave. He walks out of the bar with his mysterious looking hat on, and his ancient sword remaining sheathed. He is a samurai.

This is why I couldn't get in to clown college. And because of that little joke I played on the dean. Ironically, he has NO sense of humor.

 

[RATED]

Stopped reading at Pit in 4th.

LMFAO.

Edit: Continued reading for Additional lolz....

FOX AT TOP OF B?
MARTH IN C TIER LOL.
PIKACHU IN D?
ZELDA IN D?!
DK IN E??!?
SONIC, LUIGI AND NESS IN F??!?

This list is ****ing HILARIOUS.

you know what's hilarious? The fact that instead of reading and trying to understand their metagame or just Why both tier list are so different, you just "lol" at it. BBR LOL

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even if this list is 7 months old, I cannot fathom how characters like Yoshi DK Lucario and Pikachu are so low.
While characters like Fox Zelda and Mario are a bit too high. Aside from these 7 the list pretty much looks okay outside of their B-Tier being incredibly Small.

 

[Chuee]

Even if this list is 7 months old, I cannot fathom how characters like Yoshi DK Lucario and Pikachu are so low.
While characters like Fox Zelda and Mario are a bit too high. Aside from these 7 the list pretty much looks okay outside of their B-Tier being incredibly Small.

Its just a different metagame.
When they look at our tier list, they probably wonder the same things.

 

[Yung Mei]

you know what's hilarious? The fact that instead of reading and trying to understand their metagame or just Why both tier list are so different, you just "lol" at it. BBR LOL

^that .

 

[Raziek]

you know what's hilarious? The fact that instead of reading and trying to understand their metagame or just Why both tier list are so different, you just "lol" at it. BBR LOL

^that .

Does nobody looks at post dates anymore?

I can excuse you for not looking up my BBR join date, but in the future, don't assume a 7 month old post is relevant and current.

I still disagree with all those placings, however.

 

[Yung Mei]

I didnt really quote it to direct it at you - i quoted to direct it at people who still act like that, which i see mostly here in the US


over in the Melee boards when people were discussing the Top 5 players in the world Armada asked why European Nationals arent counted in rankings


im not even sure if he got a good response to that perfectly logical question. Biggest argument against it that i can think of atm is the PAL differences, but other than that, nope not many i can think of rofl (also no jiggs players in europe apparently)

 

[Blacknight99923]

Rain hasn't responded to my message.

it might help if someone could ask what I said in Japanese as I doubt he wants to really use a translator LOLOLOL.

But basically theres not really any excuse not to give credit to foreign players.

I mean ****ing europe seems to agree to entire sets played on BF or SV I don't see pits and snakes ****** there and then an ice climber main winning 4 tournaments in a row. No its Marth and metaknight and diddy currently correct? I'm sure the UK changes slightly to snake because we have Calorz being sexy. Then Gluttony wins a national with Wario who isn't generally considered to be OMFG **** on conservative stage lists. LOL. (smashville might be a **** stage for him though I know nothing about him)

My impression is the skill of the player is far more important than the overpowering of the character at high level play, however some are undoubtedly better than others.

basically people hype metaknight up to more than he is because better players use him. I mean how often at high level play do people say M2K only wins because he's metaknight, or seibrik only wins becuase he's metaknight, or tyrant only wins because he's metaknight, or anti only wins becuase he's metaknight.


I'm pretty sure most people agree its the player.

 

[Yung Mei]

m2k doesnt win because he mains mk, he wins because hes m2k


kingofthemews2good

 

[Blacknight99923]

m2k doesnt win because he mains mk, he wins because hes m2k


kingofthemews2good

exactly.

I just don't get all the hype about metaknight.

 

[DMG]

I mean it's not like people have him in their pocket or switched over to him. I mean Ally didn't switch to him just because "He had a cape" that's for sure.

Regardless, none of that matters. MK isn't going anywhere, ever. He could win every national for 2 years straight, and you could simply make the argument that Ally/M2K/MK player won simply because he was the best player in the field. You could even take it further, and say that tournaments are only indicative of player skill, and do not reflect upon characters. It makes the MK debate basically a waste of time, even if you found valid points against him.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I mean it's not like people have him in their pocket or switched over to him. I mean Ally didn't switch to him just because "He had a cape" that's for sure.

Regardless, none of that matters. MK isn't going anywhere, ever. He could win every national for 2 years straight, and you could simply make the argument that Ally/M2K/MK player won simply because he was the best player in the field. You could even take it further, and say that tournaments are only indicative of player skill, and do not reflect upon characters. It makes the MK debate basically a waste of time, even if you found valid points against him.

If we didn't have ******** stages would anyone ever need a pocket metaknight?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Blacknight, you should avoid such arguments in public imo. I completely agree with what you say but you're still inviting massive derailment and trolling in what is a really interesting and informative thread. For the sake of this thread, I think we should simply look at the facts in a *descriptive* manner and not draw conclusions or ideas based on it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Gheb your probably right.

All further discussion in here should be about the japanese metagame, and questions or concerns about it.