Most Recent Japanese tier list

[swordgard]

Two things to clear up, since I briefly AFK'd this thread.

#1 I'm not hating it, I just think it's amusing how drastically different our perceptions of characters are. I feel a lot of it lies in the rulesets.

#2 I'm not the best Smasher in Nova Scotia, stop trumpeting me like that BPC. I'm Top 3 for certain, but it's debatable who is the best between myself, Billy, and recently, Croi. (Our Wario main)

And Nova Scotians need to come prove themselves in the rest of canada!

 

[Raziek]

That as well. This summer, we're gonna try to make it out to Alberta or Quebec. :D

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is a large scene in Alberta? I would have thought that BC would have a larger scene between Vancouver Island and Vancouver with it's surrounding areas. Heck, the Okanagan smashers could make it to a Vancouver tournament in theory if it was large enough, it's only 5 hours away or so. Alberta is a bit more spaced out from what I remember when it comes to large cities/areas. : \

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, but I've heard very little about a BC scene here on the forums, and I've already been offered housing in Alberta, so win on that.

Also, apparently NS has the largest smash scene. (In Canada) WTB better population density.

 

[Blacknight99923]

NS should probably unban metaknight if they want to play with the rest of canada and not look like laughing stock

 

[Raziek]

Or you could shut up and we'll continue to enjoy our MK-free metagame, and when we head elsewhere, it will be for social purposes for than anything.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Actually, Raz, if you guys plan on competing in an MK-legal region, you REALLY should consider getting some practice in against him. This is why so many regions just won't go ahead with the ban-if they do, their players get worse against those that don't.

 

[Browny]

MetaKnight-free metagame

haha its a paradox

 

[Raziek]

Can't you guys read? The bragging rights aren't worth the cost, that's the whole reason we went ahead with it to begin with. The only way we're gonna get sufficient practice is if he's legal here, and people MAIN him, and play gay, which is EXACTLY what we're trying to avoid.

Like I said, if we travel to the rest of Canada, it will be more for social purposes than anything else.

I do not intend to sacrifice the integrity of our scene just because we might get beat by some MKs if we travel. That defeats the point completely.

 

[Orion*]

Actually, Raz, if you guys plan on competing in an MK-legal region, you REALLY should consider getting some practice in against him. This is why so many regions just won't go ahead with the ban-if they do, their players get worse against those that don't.

true

The only way we're gonna get sufficient practice is if he's legal here, and people MAIN him,

true

[COLOR=Limeand play gay, which is EXACTLY what we're trying to avoid.[/quote]

false

[COLOR=LimeLike I said, if we travel to the rest of Canada, it will be more for social purposes than anything else.

I do not intend to sacrifice the integrity of our scene just because we might get beat by some MKs if we travel. That defeats the point completely.[/COLOR]

what is the point. you enjoy losing? LMAO

 

[Raziek]

false

Disagree. As soon as the MK can no longer win using his characters extremely strong (but not broken) basic set of tools (including his assload of options), he probably will, and probably SHOULD resort to playing gay.

what is the point. you enjoy losing? LMAO

No, the point is that I enjoy a meta-game where the answer isn't "MK or lose", or you have to be 6 times better than your opponent to beat them.

I enjoy a metagame where you can counterpick without fear of your opponent going, "MK LOL". (Regardless of what stage you picked)

I enjoy a metagame where my players are happy, and nobody feels pressured to switch mains because there's one clear best choice to abuse.

I enjoy a metagame where we're considerably free of abusive tactics, namely planking.

I enjoy a more balanced metagame, without MK.

 

[JTsm]

Disagree. As soon as the MK can no longer win using his characters extremely strong (but not broken) basic set of tools (including his assload of options), he probably will, and probably SHOULD resort to playing gay.

No, the point is that I enjoy a meta-game where the answer isn't "MK or lose", or you have to be 6 times better than your opponent to beat them.

I enjoy a metagame where you can counterpick without fear of your opponent going, "MK LOL". (Regardless of what stage you picked)

I enjoy a metagame where my players are happy, and nobody feels pressured to switch mains because there's one clear best choice to abuse.

I enjoy a metagame where we're considerably free of abusive tactics, namely planking.

I enjoy a more balanced metagame, without MK.

Lol, way to dream it up bud.

 

[Orion*]

Disagree. As soon as the MK can no longer win using his characters extremely strong (but not broken) basic set of tools (including his assload of options), he probably will, and probably SHOULD resort to playing gay.

being "gay" assuming theres proper lgls isnt as good as you think assuming you are using a mobile character that doesnt get *****

No, the point is that I enjoy a meta-game where the answer isn't "MK or lose", or you have to be 6 times better than your opponent to beat them.

its honestly not that bad... like yes its pretty ****ing homo but i seriously doubt you have put in the amount of effort it took in the first place to rightfully bother to complain.

I enjoy a metagame where you can counterpick without fear of your opponent going, "MK LOL". (Regardless of what stage you picked)

mmm..... if you pick a nuetral based stage there really shouldnt be a problem. even frigate and ps1 are legit.

I enjoy a metagame where my players are happy, and nobody feels pressured to switch mains because there's one clear best choice to abuse.

people will tier ***** anyway good job preventing nothing

I enjoy a metagame where we're considerably free of abusive tactics, namely planking.

im going to assume your stupid enough to use bbr rulesets to. its a called a LGL

I enjoy a more balanced metagame, without MK.

only thing i could agree with, but still. not really worth it, and i still doubt youve put in the time lol

 

[Raziek]

being "gay" assuming theres proper lgls isnt as good as you think assuming you are using a mobile character that doesnt get *****

I don't agree with limiting, so banning is the answer.

its honestly not that bad... like yes its pretty ****ing homo but i seriously doubt you have put in the amount of effort it took in the first place to rightfully bother to complain.

What's your point? The statement is still true.

mmm..... if you pick a nuetral based stage there really shouldnt be a problem. even frigate and ps1 are legit.

I disagree with the presence of an "I Win" button in a game that revolves as heavily around CPs as Brawl does.

people will tier ***** anyway good job preventing nothing

This is obvious, but with MK removed, the viable cast is all of A tier and most of B tier, with significantly beats MK + SORT OF Snake, Diddy, Falco (Or main an obscure character in B tier).

No game is perfectly balanced, but Brawl without MK isn't that bad.

im going to assume your stupid enough to use bbr rulesets to. its a called a LGL

Artificial nerfs are wrong, and I agree with the philosophy behind the BBR ruleset. Stow the ad hominem.

only thing i could agree with, but still. not really worth it, and i still doubt youve put in the time lol

How would you know? You haven't tried it, and you main MK.

 

[~Firefly~]

There is a large scene in Alberta? I would have thought that BC would have a larger scene between Vancouver Island and Vancouver with it's surrounding areas. Heck, the Okanagan smashers could make it to a Vancouver tournament in theory if it was large enough, it's only 5 hours away or so. Alberta is a bit more spaced out from what I remember when it comes to large cities/areas. : \

BC is growing fairly quickly, actually, though there is like, 1 Brawl player from the Okanagan. Brawl was dead here about a year ago, but it's getting a lot better. The Alberta community is getting kinda small, and just about all of it is centered in Edmonton. There is a tourney in mid-October in BC that's looking at 30-40 entrants with a carpool from AB, so things are definitely looking up.

I have no idea why this was even brought up in this thread, but I figured I might as well clear some things up while I'm in here. :x

 

[Raziek]

Yeah, we kinda topic-jacked this. Let's drop it and let the discussion get back to the original topic.

I blame Swordgard and BPC, for derailing me to begin with. xD

 

[Blacknight99923]

I wonder what would happen if the pit and fox metagames developed more here and marths developed more in japan and see if can arrive at a "complete" global tier list.

 

[Orion*]

I don't agree with limiting, so banning is the answer.

if more people where like this the world would be an awful place. LMAO, nothing is black and white

What's your point? The statement is still true.

yes however the amount that you exaggerate is ridiculous

I disagree with the presence of an "I Win" button in a game that revolves as heavily around CPs as Brawl does.

^like this

This is obvious, but with MK removed, the viable cast is all of A tier and most of B tier, with significantly beats MK + SORT OF Snake, Diddy, Falco (Or main an obscure character in B tier).
i dont agree with this exactly, but id just be picking out details and its not worth the effort. banning mk does make a lot of chars "more" viable.

No game is perfectly balanced, but Brawl without MK isn't that bad.
can agree

Artificial nerfs are wrong, and I agree with the philosophy behind the BBR ruleset. Stow the ad hominem.
so youre an idiot LMAO

How would you know? You haven't tried it, and you main MK.

ummm, there was a time i didnt main mk? >_>
LMAO, wtf at this doodoo, even if i picked mk at the start of brawl in 08, i wouldve been entitled that opinion anyway, your just salty as hell. im sorry your characters takes a lot more tech skill, so you actually have to put some time in to the game before you stop sucking *** so much LOL

 

[Hive]

ON-topic, this is a very interesting tier list. People who say that this list can't influence our own is lying to themselves. Knowing that Olimar was good already, it wasn't until one of Japan's own came here that America (and to a lesser extent, Canada) got a taste of humility. And it's not just an exception of being a 'hero' player. There were MORE of them back in Japan who didn't go that are good too if I recall.

And here's the kicker. Brood, the Olimar, influenced this tier list by playing by OUR rules. Gluttony defeating Ally in Europe? Influential. Our tier list takes results and the skill levels of players EVERYWHERE into account to accumulate a tier list. Those that scoff at Fox being so high on Japan's list, or Pit being the 4th best...

What's going to happen if Fox or Pit players from around the world (if we ourselves do not step it up) come to play us or we take the fight to them, and all of a sudden those same Foxes and Pits are going farther than anticipated?

Raziek, your mockery of the placings in Japan's tier list may be on to something. Just the same as we here in North America have pushed the envelope on Sonic's potential to go beyond those low tier expectations that Japan holds for the hedgehog. We help Japan, Japan helps us. The world helps one another in helping solidify a competitive standard of a tier list. The rulesets do not seem to limit our players as Japan transferred over well to our standards. Do we go and play their game and try the same thing? What'll happen?

Don't hate. Observe and wonder. That's what you have to do when looking at this tier list. Or any list in general established across the world.

I like this post this is totally better than I could have said it lol, I suck at putting these kinds of thoughts into words

People need to realize that brawl growth usually happens more by tournament areas, and not as much by country. The Japanese tournament scene easily rivals the California, Texas, and Atlantic North areas in terms of population and players. It would be naive to assume that it can't effect our perception of the metagame in the same way. I'm not saying we should assume changes ahead of time either though, I just think we should keep an open mind as with any area.

Also, yaaay, your avatar is so cute <3 I love Kingdom Hearts. :D

 

[PottyJokes]

lmao, are you seriously paying hundreds of dollars to travel to canada and lose

 

[Wretched]

I just want to say to everyone who has complained about the high placement of certain characters:
The japanese beat us at everything that doesn't involve pumping lead into people.
I trust their decisions on a tier list and I recognize their metagame as better than ours.
That is all.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Their list seems largely based around individual's performances.

But Jiggz is NOT the worst character.

 

[Life]

I just want to say to everyone who has complained about the high placement of certain characters:
The japanese beat us at everything that doesn't involve pumping lead into people.
I trust their decisions on a tier list and I recognize their metagame as better than ours.
That is all.

Remember, Japan is a place where Guitar Hero is considered too easy. or so I heard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXrX5AOxDaU

That's why Brood beat M2K. Not because of their (pretty crappy) ruleset, but because of greater techskill from playing other games.


tldr
American rules > Japanese rules
and
Japanese gamers > American gamers

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uh what?
Brood beating M2K is not an indication of Japanese gamers being better than American ones.
Considering its only happened once and Brood did play an aggressive Olimar, it could indeed have been an issue in which the player was simply unfamiliar.

Seriously, lets not start this whole stupid argument again.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wait, people still think that there is enough data to decide which country has better players, based on one tournament? With what, 2 or 3 Japanese players?

Did everyone suddenly start using Inui logic or something like that while I wasn't looking? It would be impossible to tell until you could start seeing a large, overall trend.

 

[Bounogun]

I'm enjoying the fact that Jigglypuff is at the bottom of their tier list.

 

[Orion*]

lmao in terms of they only had a few players and their overall placings i wouldnt be surprised if japan ***** our ****

america is stuck in its own little bubble to much, egoooo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Uh what?
Brood beating M2K is not an indication of Japanese gamers being better than American ones.

Having a more developed Metagame with many characters however is an indicator for that.

 

[Sage JoWii]

GLutonny beat me cuz of annoyance in the room, otherwise I would have played like WFS and MM -.- headphones are coming anyhow I hate playing these days.

Johns.

Ally be mad w/ the **** talking starts. Tooootttaaaly throw off his game. Too easy.

 

[Silent Beast]

But Jiggz is NOT the worst character.

I'm enjoying the fact that Jigglypuff is at the bottom of their tier list.

Fwiw, characters within each tier are not ordered. So they don't necessarily think that Samus > Falcon > Jigglypuff. That said, they do still have Ganon ahead of those three.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Having a more developed Metagame with many characters however is an indicator for that.

Oh? Proof?
No seriously, because at th emoment I genuinely think you're just suffering the typical knee-jerk reaction.

OH LOOK A JAPANESE OLIMAR DEFEATED M2K! INDICATION THEIR METAGAME IS MORE DEVELOPED THAN OURS!
THEY ARE BETTER PLAYERS! YES YES YES OH YES!

Oh but wait Larry was the one that won the tournament not Brood.
Its very very easy to point out how soooo good something is by ignoring the fails.

By no means am I saying the Japanese players are not skilled, but to make a blanket statement based on less than a handful of players in the course of ONE TOURNAMENT is stupid.
Edit: by the way I LOVED M2K's unsafe tornado, shuttle loops and glide slashes!

 

[Wretched]

I'm pretty sure most of us didn't bring up m2k vs. brood.
pretty sure
my question is though, what game are we better at than them?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm pretty sure most of us didn't bring up m2k vs. brood.
pretty sure
my question is though, what game are we better at than them?

Cause it is all merely coincidence that people are harping about the Japanese metagame after what happened at Apex. /sarcasm

Now as for your question, I don't know, and to be honest I don't care.
As soon as you start worrying about how much better another country or your opponent is, then you've already started admitting defeat. Just ignore it and play the game. Nothing else matters.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Cause it is all merely coincidence that people are harping about the Japanese metagame after what happened at Apex. /sarcasm

Now as for your question, I don't know, and to be honest I don't care.
As soon as you start worrying about how much better another country or your opponent is, then you've already started admitting defeat. Just ignore it and play the game. Nothing else matters.

What's wrong with giving an honest assessment? Japan seems very talented and it's not because of one tournament. They have multiple youtube channels of their top players, and they perform waay more technical ATs than most of our top players here in America. Not that tech skill matters, but tbh, they do have the upper-hand in that aspect. Also, their culture has an influence on how they play because the Japanese society sets high expectations for everyone. I mean, look @ their technology! It's more advanced than ours(at least non-military tech).

IMO, because of their size and ease of accessibility to travel from one town to another and share knowledge; they are better as a whole than USA.

 

[Meru.]

I'm pretty sure most of us didn't bring up m2k vs. brood.
pretty sure
my question is though, what game are we better at than them?

Some say Melee.

I'm not sure though because I dont know a lot about Japanese Melee players. They certainly do/did have good Melee players *coughAnikicoughMikael*.

But seriously, stop saying USA > Japan or Japan > USA and even worse, that it's very evident that USA/Japan > Japan/USA. It certainly is not.

 

[LiL.Will]

Haha wow interesting.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What's wrong with giving an honest assessment? Japan seems very talented and it's not because of one tournament. They have multiple youtube channels of their top players, and they perform waay more technical ATs than most of our top players here in America. Not that tech skill matters, but tbh, they do have the upper-hand in that aspect. Also, their culture has an influence on how they play because the Japanese society sets high expectations for everyone. I mean, look @ their technology! It's more advanced than ours(at least non-military tech).

IMO, because of their size and ease of accessibility to travel from one town to another and share knowledge; they are better as a whole than USA.

Tech skill in Brawl is piss easy. Let alone that just because its flashy doesn't mean it is effective. I am very sure that the only reason many US players dont bother with most AT's is simply because of their lack of effectiveness against the opponent.

Of course the Japanese are talented, but there really is no means to determine who is better than whom unless Japanese players were to continuously play against U.S. player.
Let alone that the ease of accessibility and size means little considering that one can travel up and down the eastern coast in less than 3 hours for low cost.

 

[tarextherex]

Idk if we should take this list seriously, since it's only based on one player and japan dosen't have a BBR equivalent, and I don't think they take tier lists as seriously as smashboards does. So making statements such as: «Falco isn't that good since even in japan, where he plays only on the neutral stages that advantage him, he's not even second on the list» is irrelevant. So yeah even if you follow a lot japan's meta and watch all of their vids and stuff, their list still isn't accurate.

 

[Silent Beast]

Idk if we should take this list seriously, since it's only based on one player and japan dosen't have a BBR equivalent, and I don't think they take tier lists as seriously as smashboards does.

Actually, RAIN got input from a number of other players, so it isn't just a personal tier list, though I think your point about not taking this tier list quite as seriously because it's not from a Japanese BBR equivalent is fair.

 

[Wretched]

inserttext

I'm pretty sure buffering isnt flashy or noticable and they do it to almost all of their moves. We aren't basing our arguement that their tier list is more accurate because of brood versus M2K. We are basing it on the precedent that they are better than us at every game.
I trust their opinion on tiers more, based on that.
That's all I'm saying, and nothing else, so don't take it as anything but directly what I have said.