Most Recent Japanese tier list

[ShadowLink84]

Meatriding

Source=/=automatically legit.

 

[Wretched]

Yeah
I'm riding japans small meat
I don't have to have two comparable case studies to say that they reach a higher level of gaming than us.
That was just an immature retaliation.
I can pretty much just figure that out

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah
I'm riding japans small meat
I don't have to have two comparable case studies to say that they reach a higher level of gaming than us.
That was just an immature retaliation.
I can pretty much just figure that out

Let us put it this way, you are attempting to draw a conclusion from studies relating to different games.

Saying "Well since the Japanese outperform the Americans in SSF4, they must do so with Brawl."

Wait what?
So no, you don't have two comparable case studies.
Just because your molecular compound contains the exact same composition doesn't mean you will obtain the same effect when the orientation is 180 degrees.

 

[GrapesnWobbles]

i recently moved to misawa air base and im looking for someone to play smash with, or at least someone to point me in the right direction, can anyone help me out thnx

 

[Wretched]

Let us put it this way, you are attempting to draw a conclusion from studies relating to different games.

Saying "Well since the Japanese outperform the Americans in SSF4, they must do so with Brawl."

Wait what?
So no, you don't have two comparable case studies.
Just because your molecular compound contains the exact same composition doesn't mean you will obtain the same effect when the orientation is 180 degrees.

I still don't get why you're assuming that I am using street fighter as an example. I'm not using m2k and brood as an example either, still.
I'm drawing from my own speculation, since we don't know much about the japanese, that they are better at smash because they are better at EVERY GAME THAT ISN'T A SHOOTER. That is a widely considered fact. That was the purpose of my other question.


buthay, I bet if they only used fox, falco, and wolf, we'd whoop them with our amazing lazor gun actions
OSHI- They have fox on high for some reason.
: D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh? Proof?

Prove the obvious?

That they have the two [or maybe more] best Pits, that their average Snake is a lot better than anywhere else, that they have the two best Olimars, that they have the best ROB, that the ICs over there are actually winning stuff, that their Diddy Kongs are beast despite their opponents being able to infinite them, that they have the best Sheik, that they don't lose to gimmicks like ZSS, G&W, Pikachu and DK, that they have the same amount of legit Fox, Toon Link, Peach, Ike and Wario players despite having only a fraction of people playing? And still have an army of MK mains and pocket MKs? That their best Falco rivals the best in the US?

Which one do you want me to prove? I can easily prove all of that in detail if you absolutely want me to.

No seriously, because at th emoment I genuinely think you're just suffering the typical knee-jerk reaction.

OH LOOK A JAPANESE OLIMAR DEFEATED M2K! INDICATION THEIR METAGAME IS MORE DEVELOPED THAN OURS!
THEY ARE BETTER PLAYERS! YES YES YES OH YES!

Yes, because when I state "most of their characters' metagames are better envolved" I actually meant "OMG BROOD BEAT ALLEH AND FREE2KING OMG HE DA BESS!!11one".

How could I miss that? -.-

Oh but wait Larry was the one that won the tournament not Brood.
Its very very easy to point out how soooo good something is by ignoring the fails.

Losing a disadvantaged match-up against the best player of a character is "failing" now? A players' performance is based on his wins on losses and Brood's are better than any other Olimar, except Nietono who is considered the best Olimar in Japan. That's all I'm saying about Brood - not more, not less.

So don't come up with newbie theories that I have nothing to do with. I've believed japanese players to be the best long before Apex was even announced.

By no means am I saying the Japanese players are not skilled, but to make a blanket statement based on less than a handful of players in the course of ONE TOURNAMENT is stupid.

Yes, which is why I distance myself from such arguments.

 

[Meru.]

Prove the obvious?

That they have the two [or maybe more] best Pits, that their average Snake is a lot better than anywhere else, that they have the two best Olimars, that they have the best ROB, that the ICs over there are actually winning stuff, that their Diddy Kongs are beast despite their opponents being able to infinite them, that they have the best Sheik, that they don't lose to gimmicks like ZSS, G&W, Pikachu and DK, that they have the same amount of legit Fox, Toon Link, Peach, Ike and Wario players despite having only a fraction of people playing? And still have an army of MK mains and pocket MKs? That their best Falco rivals the best in the US?

Which one do you want me to prove? I can easily prove all of that in detail if you absolutely want me to.

Rofl. Lets play this game.

In that case USA/Europe is better because:

- We (= both USA and Europe) have the best Marth
- We have the best MK
- We have the best ZSS
- We have the best GW
- We have the best Donkey
- We have the best Sonic
- We have the best PT
- We have the best Ness
- We have the best Falco
- We have the best Peach (Peach is severely underplayed in Japan btw, we dont have the same amount of people at all)
- We dont lose to gimmicky characters such as Pit and Zelda

I dont like this logic at all.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Rofl. Lets play this game.

In that case USA/Europe is better because:

- We (= both USA and Europe) have the best Marth
- We have the best MK
- We have the best ZSS
- We have the best GW
- We have the best Donkey
- We have the best Sonic
- We have the best PT
- We have the best Ness
- We have the best Falco
- We have the best Peach (Peach is severely underplayed in Japan btw, we dont have the same amount of people at all)
- We dont lose to gimmicky characters such as Pit and Zelda

I dont like this logic at all.

You're missing Ike and Snake (if you are including Canada) from that list, probably Bowser as well.

 

[Wretched]

Pit and Zelda are gimmicky in our metagame.
Plus, we haven't even heard of most of the players in japan, and they haven't played us, so you can't say we have better players at the top.
Apex was nothing. I'm sure they have more up their sleeve so it shouldn't even be held accountable.
Besides, M2K explained to me why he lost, and I don't think it was because brood was generally better (although I still do think they are more credible, which was the beginning of my argument in the first place. Their metagames for every other game evolves much faster).

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Ganon's not bottom. Ganon is not bottom. The bottom does not encompase the dorf.

Yeah no matter how you say it, doesn't quite fit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rofl. Lets play this game.

In that case USA/Europe is better because:

- We (= both USA and Europe) have the best Marth
- We have the best MK
- We have the best ZSS
- We have the best GW
- We have the best Donkey
- We have the best Sonic
- We have the best PT
- We have the best Ness
- We have the best Falco
- We have the best Peach (Peach is severely underplayed in Japan btw, we dont have the same amount of people at all)
- We dont lose to gimmicky characters such as Pit and Zelda

I dont like this logic at all.

1.) Sonic, PT and Ness are so irrelevant that it doesn't really matter because of how bad they are. Also, I don't think you even know the names of their best Ness and PT let alone having seen them. You have no basis for such a claim.

2.) Peach isn't that underplayed, I don't know why you as a Peach main think so. There are at least 4 Peach mains doing well in tournament on a regular basis [White, Kii, Ma-tan and Yukke] and their overall level easily matches the better US Peaches. EU only has Leon anyways who doesn't use her as much anymore.

3.) Japan doesn't lose to Zelda wtf are you talking about. And Pit isn't a gimmick - bad players just make him look like he is but the good Pit players [aka Earth and Masashi] don't rely on gimmicks ever. He's just really good and underrated.

4.) Falco is true, MK possibly is but as crazy as it sounds you shouldn't take it for granted. I'll give you DK, ZSS and G&W, not like it matters...

You're missing Ike and Snake (if you are including Canada) from that list, probably Bowser as well.

You've never heard of Selcia? Japan has more good Ike's then the US has [even if none of them are on San's level, at least one of them comes close to him].

Also, japanese Snakes are better - US has ONE top level Snake [if you count him as Snake] whereas japan has 3-4 depending on your definition of a top player. The overall level of their Snakes is higher, even if one individual Snake from North America is better [which I wouldn't be so sure about].

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh, we've seen the Japan Ikes. They are good, have amazing spacing, but are a bit too flashy. It probably goes San > Mr. Doom > Best Japanese Ike.

And we are talking about single best right now. Beyond that it really gets debatable. You also don't get to throw out characters because "they don't matter". Are they a part of the game? Yes? Then they matter.

 

[Zekeishere]

Japanese DDDs? I love them.

Also,

Rukario(lucario)

I loled

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As much as I respect Mr. Doom I can't believe that you as an Ike player earnestly think that he is better than Japan's best Ike.

The "flashy" argument has never worked anyway - before RAIN came to Apex he was considered flashy and gimmicky. Before Mr.R started to beat player from North America he was considered flashy and gimmicky. Now they are beyond any doubt easily top 3 players of there characters. I think you confuse "flashy" with "clean" because technical execution is one thing japanese players seem to excel at. If the japanese Ike's look flashy in your eyes, then it's probably just because they visually impress you of how good they are.

Also, the Ike list is more like San / Selcia > Rydle > Mr. Doom

 

[Meru.]

1.) Sonic, PT and Ness are so irrelevant that it doesn't really matter because of how bad they are. Also, I don't think you even know the names of their best Ness and PT let alone having seen them. You have no basis for such a claim.

Just looking at their position in their tier list says enough.

2.) Peach isn't that underplayed, I don't know why you as a Peach main think so. There are at least 4 Peach mains doing well in tournament on a regular basis [White, Kii, Ma-tan and Yukke] and their overall level easily matches the better US Peaches. EU only has Leon anyways who doesn't use her as much anymore.

Having seen their vids and some of their results, they really arent incredibly impressive.

3.) Japan doesn't lose to Zelda wtf are you talking about.

She's 18th on the tier list, outplacing Kirby, Pikachu and Peach. That means something.

And Pit isn't a gimmick - bad players just make him look like he is but the good Pit players [aka Earth and Masashi] don't rely on gimmicks ever. He's just really good and underrated.

And we cant say that about GW/ZSS/Donkey Kong?

4.) Falco is true, MK possibly is but as crazy as it sounds you shouldn't take it for granted. I'll give you DK, ZSS and G&W, not like it matters...

It probably only matters if Japan has the upper hand.

You also forget to mention that even though Brood got 2nd in Apex, he got 7th in a tourney afterwards, losing to an American Olimar.

I'm not saying that Japan is bad or that USA is better than Japan. I simply dislike your way of 'proving' why Japan/the Japanese metagame is superior.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

As much as I respect Mr. Doom I can't believe that you as an Ike player earnestly think that he is better than Japan's best Ike.

The "flashy" argument has never worked anyway - before RAIN came to Apex he was considered flashy and gimmicky. Before Mr.R started to beat player from North America he was considered flashy and gimmicky. Now they are beyond any doubt easily top 3 players of there characters. I think you confuse "flashy" with "clean" because technical execution is one thing japanese players seem to excel at. If the japanese Ike's look flashy in your eyes, then it's probably just because they visually impress you of how good they are.

Also, the Ike list is more like San / Selcia > Rydle > Mr. Doom

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that I, as an Ike main-make that somebody who has been maining Ike since day 1-knows more about what a good Ike looks like than somebody who doesn't use Ike, and IIRC claimed that Ike loses against Snake something stupid like 2-8. The Japanese Ikes try to go for things they shouldn't go for, don't play it as safe as they could, and end up taking damage for it. Saying that the Japanese Ikes are that good would be as stupid as claiming that Inui has a good Ike, even though he plays Ike like it's early 2008.

Mr.Doom is better than the Japanese Ikes. And no Japanese Ike is even remotely close to the same level as San. The Japanese Ikes did figure out things, like the exact %s for Bthrow -> Dash Attack, I'm not taking that away from them. They are knowledgeable about the character. But they mess up more than San or Mr.Doom, unless they have changed drastically since I last checked.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*laughs at the replies*
I am just going to sit here and laugh.

 

[PottyJokes]

thought i read somewhere that m2k will visit japan and brawl with their best someday (dont remember , just recall him postin this) we'll see what happens then. if m2k loses its cause the ruleset "fails", if he wins japan is trash. im callin it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Let us put it this way, you are attempting to draw a conclusion from studies relating to different games.

Saying "Well since the Japanese outperform the Americans in SSF4, they must do so with Brawl."

Wait what?
So no, you don't have two comparable case studies.
Just because your molecular compound contains the exact same composition doesn't mean you will obtain the same effect when the orientation is 180 degrees.

I still don't get why you're assuming that I am using street fighter as an example. I'm not using m2k and brood as an example either, still.
I'm drawing from my own speculation, since we don't know much about the japanese, that they are better at smash because they are better at EVERY GAME THAT ISN'T A SHOOTER. That is a widely considered fact. That was the purpose of my other question.


buthay, I bet if they only used fox, falco, and wolf, we'd whoop them with our amazing lazor gun actions
OSHI- They have fox on high for some reason.
: D

Not street fighter. It's that they're playing a very, VERY different game.

thought i read somewhere that m2k will visit japan and brawl with their best someday (dont remember , just recall him postin this) we'll see what happens then. if m2k loses its cause the ruleset "fails", if he wins japan is trash. im callin it.

"Being forced to play on your character's worst stages every match" is, IMO, a very, very legitimate john. And if you're able to win despite that, well then...

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

D
Zelda / Kirby Pikachu Peach Ike Sheik Wolf

Whoever made the OP clearly forgot to add Sheik to Zelda. It made Zelda look better than she actually is, but he must have completely forgot because no where else on the list is another slash.

 

[Meru.]

Whoever made the OP clearly forgot to add Sheik to Zelda. It made Zelda look better than she actually is, but he must have completely forgot because no where else on the list is another slash.

What about Zelda then?

 

[AllyKnight]

Japanese Snakes are horrible at some points. They'd get wrecked by any good ICS in here. We'll see when we go there anyhow.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

1.) Sonic, PT and Ness are so irrelevant that it doesn't really matter because of how bad they are. Also, I don't think you even know the names of their best Ness and PT let alone having seen them. You have no basis for such a claim.

What are you talking about?

Have you -seen- me play? I'm a champion of justice!

 

[Flayl]

What are you talking about?

Have you -seen- me play? I'm a champion of justice!

Your ego is getting in the way of your reading comprehension, lol

He's talking about the best Japanese Ness/PT players

 

[Doc King]

Wow, this list is very different from America's Tier list and we both have the NTSC version. I'm not gonna lie but I think Pit kindof sucks.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Whoever made the OP clearly forgot to add Sheik to Zelda. It made Zelda look better than she actually is, but he must have completely forgot because no where else on the list is another slash.

its a typo

 

[eschemat]

are you kidding me? japan rocks!

akira too good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBDsHi8-2g

buffer buffer buffer ****.

EDIT:::

Who said they only played on BF, FD and SV?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy-Af37oqNo&feature=related

 

[Kinetic]

Your ego is getting in the way of your reading comprehension, lol

He's talking about the best Japanese Ness/PT players

Could you calm down a little bit? He was clearly kidding about the "champion of justice" thing.

 

[DMG]

Any word on more current japanese tier lists/player opinions?

 

[xDD-Master]

Yeah would be nice to see a new japanese tier list / match-up chart / ruleset / whatever.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I can ask. However I wouldn't expect their opinion to change a lot,

at the recent SRT which had at least about 80 entrants (I don't know how many total)

top 5 was like

1. Neitono (olimar)
2. Earth (Pit & shiek)
3. Brood (olimar)
4. Shu (snake)
5. Rain (falco and metaknight)

I don't know the rest. However I was also told 9B did not attend the event, and he had won the previous 4 tournaments with ice climbers.

A 165 event a week earlier or something had 9B neitono something later for first and second but I can't remember.

Basically ice climbers snake falco metaknight pit and olimar have won tournaments(that I've seen) , and outside of 9B ****** everyone (with straight ICs) I don't think i've seen any one character just flat out dominate in the last 9 months.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As far as tourney results go 9B is the most dominant player, followed by Nietono and it's usually one or the other winning tournaments. Shu, Otori, Masashi and as of late Earth are really consistent.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Kakera is usually pretty consistent too. as is Rain.

 

[xDD-Master]

I can ask. However I wouldn't expect their opinion to change a lot

Thank you ^^

 

[EpixAura]

Extra points if you post the Japanese matchup ratios. I reeeeaaally want to see that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This pissing contest is stupid.

Pit is considered good in Japan because two really good players use him and place with him. Tier lists in Japan are traditionally based almost entirely on results to my knowledge (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Their tier lists are not based on how "good" a character is. It makes sense, since you can't reasonably quantify that anyway except in extreme cases. How much better is Kirby than Luigi? Can you give me a number? Six units better? Seven? I don't know and don't care, but Luigi places a little better.

 

[DMG]

While Kirby is a better character.

Which leaves us where?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not true that Pit has only "2 players doing really well with him" in Japan. He also has some 3-4 other players who do well on a consistent basis unless it's a super-stacked bracket.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The Japanese Pits are amazing, they have a stagelist conducive to Pit's playstyle, it's actually pretty perfect.

Also from what I've seen Japanese MKs just aren't at the level of NA ones, and MK is one of the main things keeping Pit down.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

While Kirby is a better character.

Which leaves us where?

What if you're wrong?