NJ/NY Rankings: New Rankings 9/25/12!!!

[Kaiber Kop]

same with kirby matchup vs sonic

Sonic does not have the advantage vs kirby. You've gotta be kidding if you think he does

Eazy: You said yourself I'm smart enough to avoid his aerials and side B. Why can't the Ike be smart enough to corner me till I have to go over him then be smart enough to punish either my dash past him with a pivot grab, grab, jab, or a million other things, or punish me in the air. Skill matters. It's their fault, not the matchups.

On paper it may look like Sonic ***** him although I greatly disagree with that, the fact is I main the character. I'm willing to put my experience above theory brawls especially(no offense) against people who don't use him, or either character.

Inui is, in his mind, an elitist. If the matchup is even or barely in Sonic's favor it makes him look bad. He can't accept that.

 

[Allied]

No, there is nothing wrong with playing extremely defensive. If a character outruns another character to the point where he can not be touched....he simply wrecks the other character. Mk, marth etc can keep certain characters away SIMPLY by poking and zoning. Why would there be a problem with Sonic running away from a slow character?

And regardless of whether Ike can move, jump, aerial upB. You're smart enough to avoid what he is going to do unless you are tricked. However, being tricked is not taken into consideration when discussing matchups.

On paper, I do not see a way for ike to effectively keep sonic from running away if he has the lead. I'm not saying it is brain dead easy to run away for 8 mins, but if its a strat that a sonic main is willing to try...it probably would work.

I could simply say that about metaknight vs all characters and prove metaknight has unbeatable matchups but i'm not am i? :D

 

[Allied]

Sonic does not have the advantage vs kirby. You've gotta be kidding if you think he does

i said that MU is 50/50 lol i meant 55/45 vs ike

essentially kirby has the same problem ike has so i think its in the same field

 

[Kaiber Kop]

i said that MU is 50/50 lol i meant 55/45 vs ike

essentially kirby has the same problem ike has so i think its in the same field

No, Kirby has more options vs Sonic than Ike. Kirby beats Sonic. It's hardly even comparable

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Uh, in order to run away the whole match sonic needs to gain a Percent lead... isn't it harder for sonic to hit Ike before Ike hits sonic because of Ike's range and priority?

 

[Eazy23]

Kai- are you willing to time out every person you play, every time you play?

Allied- I don't need you to say it. Spam actually DID it. Mk can timeout every char if the PLAYER is willing to do so.

 

[Allied]

No, Kirby has more options vs Sonic than Ike. Kirby beats Sonic. It's hardly even comparable

Uh yes it is because ike vs sonic is 50/50 and its confirmed and NOTED that kirby/sonic is compared and kirby and ike have NO tools for you simply zoning and running, Kirby even has slow aieral speed than ike dare i say more

Do i care? No i think kirby wins that MU i'm just bad at it, Simply enough i beat your ground and aieral game hands down

so does ike

but its still a 50/50 MU

Because of the very wierd priority of your over b and speed of your character with different zone and poke stragedies

I wouldn't be getting annoyed tho if you think your character is bad you are mistaken its not as bad as it seems, sonic actually gets around i mean hes mid tier for a reason whether you want him to lose to ganon or not

I'm just letting you know you have alot of options whether you want to believe it or not

Kai- are you willing to time out every person you play, every time you play?

Allied- I don't need you to say it. Spam actually DID it. Mk can timeout every char if the PLAYER is willing to do so.

So what are you trying to say here Eazy, Matchups go (or should go) on facts and data anaylsis vs characters Not by stagedies

Bleachigo can camp everyone with falco to the last second but he doesnt

Zucco can cam peveryone to the last seoncond but he doesnt

Spam's style of playing is obviously REALLY REALLY GOOD, but then again he was one of a kind who did it, also making him a top player

i dont see your point



TBH KAI this whole discussion keeps getting brought up because inui wants something to john about when he loses LOW TIER to you, i dont understand why you even put it up with its apparent he doesn't wanna admit hes worse than you in that area you are a low tier pro using sonic but then again that wasn't your intention it just happened that way

So stop listening to inui and argueing back if he wants to say sonic 80/20 ike who cares its low tier it shouldn't count anyway am i right?

I can sit here and ***** and theory fight all day "OmG SONIC ***** METAKNIGHT HE CAN JUST POKE AND RUN AWAY BLA BLA BLA I HAVE NO TOOLS FOR APPROACH"

"OMG SONIC ***** D3 HE JUST CAN POKE AND RUN AWAY BLA BLA BLA I HAVE NO TOOLS FOR APPROACH" and give a unjustified matchup ratio to get you all pissy but thats just dumb

TL;DR

Inui johns about stupid low tiers , kai gets mad, i'm telling kai to stop listening to it because it shouldn't count anyway

Done

Next discussion i just won that

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Kai- are you willing to time out every person you play, every time you play?

No. Sonic can't do it against smart kids anyway.

Ok Sonic is top tier. He is the best character in brawl. Inui's losses are due to a very big advantage my character has and no skill on either side. Kirby gets ***** by Sonic too. Every character does bc he can run away. He can't be cornered and no character can jump. I'm not winning tournaments with my amazing character because I suck. Spin dash can not be out prioritized, grabbed, or stopped. Every low tier gets ***** by Sonic, even squirtle.

I'm getting so sick of this. More time is spent arguing about the game than playing it so I'm done. I have a friend demeaning and insulting me bc of a game. Wanting to maximize my winning options by picking a better character in a situation is cowardly??? I'm not going to Inui's unless pride can't find a new LT partner. No wonder people are quitting.

Good bye.

Edit: Kirby vs Sonic is NOT 50/50, I am better so I won. Simple as that.

 

[Allied]

No. Sonic can't do it against smart kids anyway.

Ok Sonic is top tier. He is the best character in brawl. Inui's losses are due to a very big advantage my character has and no skill on either side. Kirby gets ***** by Sonic too. Every character does bc he can run away. He can't be cornered and no character can jump. I'm not winning tournaments with my amazing character because I suck. Spin dash can not be out prioritized, grabbed, or stopped. Every low tier gets ***** by Sonic, even squirtle.

I'm getting so sick of this. More time is spent arguing about the game than playing it so I'm done. I have a friend demeaning and insulting me bc of a game. Wanting to maximize my winning options by picking a better character in a situation is cowardly??? I'm not going to Inui's unless pride can't find a new LT partner. No wonder people are quitting.

Good bye.

Edit: Kirby vs Sonic is NOT 50/50, I am better so I won. Simple as that.

None of that is being said you are being a baby about it lol

inui is looking for something to john about and i'm not using a matchup to john i already knew you were the better player

also you do realize this thread is for arguing right? if you dont wanan do it, dont come to the thread

 

[Eazy23]

Wow kai why are you getting upset.

Allied- I'm just doing the mu discussion the way it is usually done. If you have someone playing dk perfectly, and absolutely wrecking every single bowser he plays, but everyone else plays dk wrong, and gets wrecked, who wins the mu?

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Wow kai why are you getting upset.

Allied- I'm just doing the mu discussion the way it is usually done. If you have someone playing dk perfectly, and absolutely wrecking every single bowser he plays, but everyone else plays dk wrong, and gets wrecked, who wins the mu?

I'm not upset. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I don't care about the rankings. Whether this stuff matters or not is irrelevent.

I'd much rather not support a "friends" event if he's an *******.

I'm just done discussing everything. It gets us nowhere really.

Allied: I know you're 2-faced but I'm not being a baby. I'm telling Inui and Eazy what they want to hear. If I was flipping out at my comp desk then I'd few myself as pretty silly right now. I'm able to type without getting angry believe it or not

 

[MalcolmM]

<----Is accepting Ike vs Sonic money matches as Ike @ any event. Prove me wrong. Time me out if it's so simple. I welcome the challenge. No less than 10$ because I want it to be something of value. If you TRULY BELIEVE that you can just run past me with Sonic and I wont hit you, then this should be a simple task. I want it recorded. Take my 10$.

 

[Allied]

Wow kai why are you getting upset.

Allied- I'm just doing the mu discussion the way it is usually done. If you have someone playing dk perfectly, and absolutely wrecking every single bowser he plays, but everyone else plays dk wrong, and gets wrecked, who wins the mu?

If thats the mu are usually done that Matchups all around would suck because i can say that about every character

'If you have someone playing olimar perfectly, and absolutely wrecking every single bowser he plays, but everyone else plays olimar wrong, and gets wrecked, who wins the mu?"

You have to look at What moves beats what, whats olimars main way of playing, whats bowsers eavisive moves, what frame starts faster bla bla bla

BUt i hate that stuff so i dont do it because its dumb, YOU HEAR ME CHARACTER BOARDS ITS DUMB!

So eazy what i'm saying is stop protecting inui from the classic matchup johns because it doesnt matter anyway

1. Low tiers shouldn't count
2. The matchup has been proven 50/50

-_-

you still are my favorite marth to play against eazy :D

 

[Max Ketchum]

You are my friend, but requiring Diddy Kong instead of Sonic to beat a character Sonic already *****...is somewhat cowardly. >_>;

I'm sorry Lucas, but this sounds much like your deal with being MK-exclusive vs. ICs and wanting to lower the amount that your set vs. Max counts.

Wouldn't that be stalling and I could have that called on me?

The stages are not endless......I can't just run in one direction. I would have to go over him.....Ike can't jump? Besides, Ike's aerial sideB gets him around pretty quick.

Ike's aerials are all stupidly slow and predictable. You can't run in one direction, but you play the character with the highest net movement speed...Sonic is super quick both in the air and on the ground. Ike's moves excluding bair/nair/jab are very slow and predictable.

Dude, Ike's side B is terrible for movement. It closes short distances quickly, but fully charged it can't even go 3/4 of FD (estimate) and it's laggy as ****. It also provides him with the slow/helpless ending animation if you air dodge or spot dodge the release hit.

Sonic can run to one side of the stage, up B, and then still outmaneuver Ike from there because Ike is so much slower than him. You can also just plain old jump over him and avoid anything on reaction, run past him, spin dash past him, etc. Platforms may or may not make this easier. Either way, it's entirely possible for Sonic to run from Ike for 8 minutes and not get hit by anything terribly threatening...If Sonic gets a stock lead, Ike might as well reset the match. :/ If people had Spam's mindset all the time in every matchup, the metagame would be so different.

Eazy: You said yourself I'm smart enough to avoid his aerials and side B. Why can't the Ike be smart enough to corner me till I have to go over him then be smart enough to punish either my dash past him with a pivot grab, grab, jab, or a million other things, or punish me in the air. Skill matters. It's their fault, not the matchups.

On paper it may look like Sonic ***** him although I greatly disagree with that, the fact is I main the character. I'm willing to put my experience above theory brawls especially(no offense) against people who don't use him, or either character.

Because Ike doesn't have the tools to CORNER Sonic. You don't HAVE to run/spin dash past him. You don't HAVE to do the same thing over again. Sonic has a multitude of options to choose from to avoid Ike's pressure game and stay safe and continue to run. You don't even need to outplay Ike to run the clock, you can win by simply reacting to his slow moveset and not making stupid decisions.

No. Sonic can't do it against smart kids anyway.

Honestly, however smart the person you're playing is, they still can be severely limited by their character. Ike is definitely limited against a Sonic that plays like the gayest of the gays, because it's very hard to chase down the fastest character in the game (who has a high priority movement attack and a partially invincible jump that goes higher than Ike's ground and second jumps combined).

Ike vs. Sonic is even or near it if Sonic actually fights him, but if they start turning up the gay? I don't think it'd be even close. It's just not a situation that Ike is good at dealing with by any means.


That said, hype for Doom (Ike) vs. Xyro (Samus) MM at Kosha Boy? :D

 

[Allied]

I'm not upset. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I don't care about the rankings. Whether this stuff matters or not is irrelevent.

I'd much rather not support a "friends" event if he's an *******.

I'm just done discussing everything. It gets us nowhere really.

Allied: I know you're 2-faced but I'm not being a baby. I'm telling Inui and Eazy what they want to hear. If I was flipping out at my comp desk then I'd few myself as pretty silly right now. I'm able to type without getting angry believe it or not

well thats fairly uncalled for

i just called you a baby about your response because it was pretty babyish especially for 2 people to take notice and if you dont care, then inuis john shouldn't matter

If inui is calling you a coward and you dont like it thats a friend issue and you should talk to him about that and discuss it with him via aim

the whole 2 faced thing is a little out of line and if you wanna discuss it then txt or aim me

 

[Kaiber Kop]

I'm sorry Lucas, but this sounds much like your deal with being MK-exclusive vs. ICs and wanting to lower the amount that your set vs. Max counts.



Ike's aerials are all stupidly slow and predictable. You can't run in one direction, but you play the character with the highest net movement speed...Sonic is super quick both in the air and on the ground. Ike's moves excluding bair/nair/jab are very slow and predictable.

Dude, Ike's side B is terrible for movement. It closes short distances quickly, but fully charged it can't even go 3/4 of FD (estimate) and it's laggy as ****. It also provides him with the slow/helpless ending animation if you air dodge or spot dodge the release hit.

Sonic can run to one side of the stage, up B, and then still outmaneuver Ike from there because Ike is so much slower than him. You can also just plain old jump over him and avoid anything on reaction, run past him, spin dash past him, etc. Platforms may or may not make this easier. Either way, it's entirely possible for Sonic to run from Ike for 8 minutes and not get hit by anything terribly threatening...If Sonic gets a stock lead, Ike might as well reset the match. :/ If people had Spam's mindset all the time in every matchup, the metagame would be so different.



Because Ike doesn't have the tools to CORNER Sonic. You don't HAVE to run/spin dash past him. You don't HAVE to do the same thing over again. Sonic has a multitude of options to choose from to avoid Ike's pressure game and stay safe and continue to run. You don't even need to outplay Ike to run the clock, you can win by simply reacting to his slow moveset and not making stupid decisions.



Honestly, however smart the person you're playing is, they still can be severely limited by their character. Ike is definitely limited against a Sonic that plays like the gayest of the gays, because it's very hard to chase down the fastest character in the game (who has a high priority movement attack and a partially invincible jump that goes higher than Ike's ground and second jumps combined).

Ike vs. Sonic is even or near it if Sonic actually fights him, but if they start turning up the gay? I don't think it'd be even close. It's just not a situation that Ike is good at dealing with by any means.


That said, hype for Doom (Ike) vs. Xyro (Samus) MM at Kosha Boy? :D

You're right. Sonic's speed is amazing. Ike can't corner Sonic because if sonic is near the edge of the stage Ike's jab on spin dash surely won't work and if sonic jumps Ike can't aerial, not to mention sonic having amazing aerial DI after upB and invincibility towards grabs when he hits the ground. My bad. Theory brawls....amazing

well thats fairly uncalled for

i just called you a baby about your response because it was pretty babyish especially for 2 people to take notice and if you dont care, then inuis john shouldn't matter

If inui is calling you a coward and you dont like it thats a friend issue and you should talk to him about that and discuss it with him via aim

the whole 2 faced thing is a little out of line and if you wanna discuss it then txt or aim me

If you're offended IM me and we can discuss it. If you're going to refer to me as a baby on a public forum.....then too bad if I respond negatively since you're nice in person. Setokaiba97321. I'm on right now

 

[Crizthakidd]

thread needs more allied's

 

[Chen Li Cha]

Sonic is suppose to run away for 8 minutes? This is how Sonic ***** Ike? You people are funny, Have anyone ever fought an Ike? Ike has crazy ariels, his sword takes up half the stage, he can spam attacks and get damage on Sonic so Sonic has to approach him, there is a block/side step motion Ike can do and then hit the for hedgehog, how can you time out someone if they are in the lead? Ike Jabs go through so much **** and his moves slice through Sonic **** like butter. Ok, I ban FD, oh dear, run away from the Ike Sonic! I pick Battlefield, run 3 inches *****, back and forth! I can't catch you. Oh, good luck killing Ike, the man weighs 9000000 punds and can't be killed that easy, Sonic the feather hedgehog is trash.

Ike>Sonic. Also, Inui isn't a ****ing dummy, he is smart in the game, so any Ike with atleast 50% of a brain, even if artificail, will beat a Sonic. Anyone disagrees, then face a decent Ike with Sonic and try to time the man out for 2-3 rounds. I'll hot the time out Ike challenge, FD banned, brinstar on. 44 dollars to enter, if you win, you get your pride. Sonic can't even knock out robotnic, you expect him to throw the **** 90909823748 pound Ike for the win.

 

[Max Ketchum]

You're right. Sonic's speed is amazing. Ike can't corner Sonic because if sonic is near the edge of the stage Ike's jab on spin dash surely won't work and if sonic jumps Ike can't aerial, not to mention sonic having amazing aerial DI after upB and invincibility towards grabs when he hits the ground. My bad. Theory brawls....amazing

Ike's jab on spin dash doesn't win, correct? It resets it to neutral, and at that point it's a guessing game. Ike can't jab Sonic's spin dash, call his roll and attack in the other direction, expect him to hold shield and grab him, hold jab/charge a smash to beat spot dodge, wait for him to land after up B, and attempt to aerial his jump ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

Sonic DOES have above average movement after up B. He also has the option of landing with a dodge or an aerial, or better yet, using platforms to further mix up his landing. If he tries to aerial you when you jump, you have enough time to react and take an action to avoid it. Ike is not a fast character, movement-wise or frame-wise. If Ike truly did have enough pressure game to corner a character with that much mobility, he would be much better than he is right now.

It comes down to a guessing game. Sonic just has more escape options than Ike has safe pressure options. Even then, it's not like Ike benefits hugely from getting the hit off on Sonic. Theory or not, most of this is just kinda common sense, in my opinion. Sonic is never without an option to get away from Ike in most scenarios. Also keep in mind the time that it takes Ike to reach Sonic from whatever distance he did manage to escape to.


I'm not saying that running from Ike for 8 minutes is a cakewalk and you'll be successful in it 100% of the time for the entire match without getting hit. It's just easier for Sonic to run away from Ike than it is for Ike to chase down Sonic. Ike HAS options, but they are fewer in number and less rewarding and less effective.

 

[.REMIX.]

Kingz is tryig to get me haters i love it... Too bad i EDIT BIATCH!

EDIT: that was kingz who said that before

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Sonic doesn't **** Ike. You'll notice how Espy, Malcolm, and I all agree.....because you know, we actually use the character(or did). Inui would be without a john any other way. And theory brawl =/= what happens in tournys.

 

[Allied]

Remix Outta No Where Lol

 

[Max Ketchum]

You'll also notice that Espy, Malcolm and you have never attempted to run away for 8 minutes against Ike (to my knowledge). Just because nobody has done it in tournament yet doesn't rule it out as a likelihood. Sonic does not **** Ike when you actually fight him (and all three of you actually fight Ike as far as I've seen). You should try it next time and see how successful you are. Theories exist to be tested and proven right/wrong...you can't just say "it's stupid and untrue, you wouldn't know because you don't play the character". Try it out and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, you know I'll gladly concede and stand corrected.

And I do use Sonic to a small degree, I know a solid amount about the character and what he can do. I obviously know Ike very well. Even though what I'm saying IS purely theoretical, it's based on some degree of fact, experience, and knowledge. I'll try out Malcolm's challenge (without the $10, I'm way broke) and see how it goes.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Try it out and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, you know I'll gladly concede and stand corrected.

There is not always a safe option to get past ike. It is a simple as that. I don't need theories to help my point. Even if I tried AND it worked, this would get rid of Inui's john which would be unacceptable. He would call on another pointless factor to improve his rep for losing a match.

If it did work whose to say the opponent just wasn't smart enough to predict and/or punish? Whose to say if it didn't work that the Sonic just wasn't playing correctly? This is why theory brawl is stupid imo

 

[Chen Li Cha]

If no one did it, then how do you know it is even possible?

 

[Max Ketchum]

Lol, I haven't been on the subject of johns at all here. I'm just being honest about what I think.

The thing is that Sonic doesn't have to act first...there's no opportunity for Ike to predict and punish since he has to do something to continue applying the pressure to Sonic. Sonic is capable of reacting (this isn't really arguable) to what Ike chooses to do. In instances where he can't do this, yeah, predicting and punishing comes in, but Sonic still has better and quicker options. Ike has a pretty limited and telegraphed moveset. It's VERY rare that he'll actually pin Sonic into a situation where he has to get hit by something major (like something that's not jab or a 5 damage throw).

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Inui and anyone else can attempt to make my win over him look like its all character matchup advantage....you can even believe it. Don't expect me to though.

 

[Max Ketchum]

But...that isn't what I'm saying! I'm just agreeing with Eazy that the matchup COULD be **** if Sonic was willing to play it that gay. I even specifically stated that the way you guys play (not incredibly homo by any means) definitely does not make it some heavy matchup advantage at all...where did you get that from? I never said it.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

**** would imply that I should never lose. You're theory brawl is wrong anyway but if it was right a close game would mean that I was playing incorrectly. I won't accept that from people who don't play the character. You may think this is foolish but I think it's foolish for someone giving me matchup knowledge about a matchup they don't play and a character they don't use. Especially ones that don't get seen at every event. The top tiers I can understand MAYBE, but not the low tiers.

 

[Megavitamins]

Theory crafting Sonic vs Ike is just silly.

I have to agree that Sonic wins, I don't play either of them but based on what I've read...

 

[Max Ketchum]

Lol, I've seen you vs. Inui quite a few times due to how often low tiers happens around here. I'm just saying that you should try it before you knock it. Whether I play the character or not doesn't mean I don't understand his options (and there's not much not to understand in this scenario), but it's fine if you disregard it.

**** doesn't imply that you should never lose. I'd consider a 70:30 or 65:35 matchup ****, but it doesn't mean the character should never lose. It means they should lose 30% or 35% of the time.

 

[Allied]

its already been proven its 50/50 anything past that is theory crafting thats Top Player stragedies that get sonic to that level not the matchup

D3 vs Dorf Theorycraft that

 

[Kaiber Kop]

Lol, I've seen you vs. Inui quite a few times due to how often low tiers happens around here. I'm just saying that you should try it before you knock it. Whether I play the character or not doesn't mean I don't understand his options (and there's not much not to understand in this scenario), but it's fine if you disregard it.

**** doesn't imply that you should never lose. I'd consider a 70:30 or 65:35 matchup ****, but it doesn't mean the character should never lose. It means they should lose 30% or 35% of the time.

Yes I disregard it

Wouldn't that 30% of the other time mean they were outplayed?

 

[Max Ketchum]

Edit: Ignore this, not really sure what to say. Hm.

 

[Zucco]

hmm, Interesting Topic going on in here. Anyways........ Attention everyone! If I am still around for low tier singles on Saturday, get ready to watch me time out Inui with Sonic!

 

[Chen Li Cha]

I like how you guys throw the word "****" around. **** would imply that Sonic(if running away) would be 100% guarenteed, winning matchup. So Sonic should have 3 stocks at the end of this 8 minutes of Ike missing. Because if Ike hits sonic, that is alot of damage, and if Sonic is air born, he can not run away. Ike gets in the lead by 25% damage, what point is sonic running away gonna do if Sonic is not already in the lead? Sonic has to approach to get the 1% damage and I doubt Ike is gotta not block orside step and not inflict damage.

 

[Allied]

hmm, Interesting Topic going on in here. Anyways........ Attention everyone! If I am still around for low tier singles on Saturday, get ready to watch me time out Inui with Sonic!

zucco check the 100% juice thread and rate

 

[kingz-night-mare]

Guys im gonna main pikachu.

 

[_Yes!_]

Guys im gonna main pikachu.

Is your Z button good?

 

[BleachigoZX]

Why does everyone use me in Laser Camp talk when I don't even do it to you guys?

@Eazy, Falco can time people out I never thought about that! I'm going to try that on Marth/IC! (Seriously, no sarcasm)