Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

now gheb, are you one of those people that rag on fox players for couterpicking mk at times?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not at all? I don't rag anybody for using MK on counterpicks ... MK is "broken" on these stages for a reason ... because the stages THEMSELVES are broken [talking about RC and Brinstar].

 

[Damix91]

I don't think its unfair for us Pit players to see someone do well with our character and want to figure out how. Just like people now looking at Sonic as more of a threat after MLG. Using someone playing a character to its potential is justified by the BBR too. Look at the tier list TKD is named under why fox moved up the tier list. As is San and Mr. Doom for Ike. The truth is you just don't respect japan as a region.

Facts of Apex:

Earth outplaced all American Pits on a liveral stage list (not what they play in japan) Came 17th. Kool Aid came 33rd

Rain 7th

Brood.. nothing needs be said.

 

[Spelt]

2 sonics placed top 8 at the same national.
and you're trying to compare that to a pit getting 17th?
brood and rain placed better because their characters are better.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think its unfair for us Pit players to see someone do well with our character and want to figure out how. Just like people now looking at Sonic as more of a threat after MLG. Using someone playing a character to its potential is justified by the BBR too. Look at the tier list TKD is named under why fox moved up the tier list. As is San and Mr. Doom for Ike. The truth is you just don't respect japan as a region.

We don't have much experience with Japan as a region to judge accurately.

If a player is placing really well in an area isolated from the larger tournament scene, how do we know that it isn't because the players in that area just aren't at the top level of play?

My dominating the scene in Alabama doesn't make me a top level player.

 

[Damix91]

Spelt: The point was to show that Japan is a decent region and you didnt adress my point about the tier list which was the main one.

Edit: Reflex: Dominating your region doesn't show the quality of character, no, but surely your placings at nationals put it in perspective; hence why i quoted Apex.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think people saying Pit is bad are jumping the gun a little. He's down there with Jigglypuff and the other characters who are basically completely undeveloped.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think people saying Pit is bad are jumping the gun a little. He's down there with Jigglypuff and the other characters who are basically completely undeveloped.

lol Everyone below top tier are completely undeveloped because they do not have obviously broken traits which were seen in week one when brawl came out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Edit: Reflex: Dominating your region doesn't show the qulity of character no but surely your placings at nationals put it in perspective, hence why i quoted Apex.

I thought Earth was a Sheik main...?

That being said, we don't have a prejudice against Japan; we just don't have much data concerning the character, Apex or not. As Pit is, I don't see him being all that great. Not a bad character, but most of the higher tiers represent characters of extremes, which Pit does not have. I think he's alright where he is.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic: Espy, X, top 8 at the same national
Fox: TKD, NAKAT, Trevonte, beating top level players across a span of about a year now.
Ike: San, 9th place at multiple nationals. Mr. Doom, Ryo. Beating top calibur players of multiple regions and multiple characters across the span of about a year.
Pit, One dude from a completely isolated region that wins in a ruleset completely seperate than the established norm.

One of these things is not like the others.

If you want to put the accomplishments of these similarly placed character against each other., it seems like pit has proven himself the least of the 4. and should be below the other 3.

 

[Damix91]

I'm not even arguing for a tier list push. My thoughts on where he should be are still formulating but i think to say we are 'meat-riding' is unfair. There's only been 1 big stage oppurtunity for japan to prove itself and earth certainly did not do badly, compare that with the fact that he is regularly outplaced by another Pit in Japan. People want to discredit Japan entirely which is wrong.

EDIT: Reflex: I think he co-mains but read his interview on AiB. He plays Pit when he wats to win.

 

[bigman40]

No one is stating any reasons identical to what you said for discrediting Japan. The main reason Japan isn't included like other countries is due to having little information from them. Not only that, but the amount of times Japan and any other place meet is even more rare than American players meeting European players.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People want to discredit Japan entirely which is wrong.

We can't form reasonable opinions of our metagame based on an isolated region. We don't have the information to work with.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

And by the way, what is the "Established Norm"anyway? Maybe to them, our rule set sucks.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I'm not sure why Wario ever went back up. Seriously.

Many people probably wonder that. Regardless where Wario goes he still a great character. XD

 

[Damix91]

No one is stating any reasons identical to what you said for discrediting Japan. The main reason Japan isn't included like other countries is due to having little information from them. Not only that, but the amount of times Japan and any other place meet is even more rare than American players meeting European players.

When I spoke about 'meat-riding', I was referring to below, the last line. My comments are in response this

gheb, I really really hate the fact that you respond to

'well usually when im in that situation, I do [X] and it works because [Y]' from reflex with

'That SHOULDNT work because I THINK [Y] MIGHT be safe enough to keep [X] from happening'

its just ignorant because you argue with people who are telling you how it is from experience when YOU EVEN ADMIT IN YOUR POST, that you barely have half an idea of what youre talking about.

also. since im on the subject of how stupid gheb is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJwXBcRnbNM

now can you PLEASE stop meat riding masashi and acting like pit is a good character?

Okay, let's try to explain again. What is tier list a comparison of how characters compare at the top of the metagame. I gave examplesof where the BBR has rewarded characters being demonstrated by high level players, and respected the fact that they showed up more than in just their regions but at nationals too. I'm not trying to explain America's lack of top Pits ot you (though your hatred probably doesn't make him an attractive prospect to those looking to pick him up), I am just trying to convey the message that a region that you can't just discredit good play. Okay maybe its not enough to say that's Pits a top character. I'm not trying to say that but discrediting isn't fair either.

Edit: We may not have enough reasonable evidence to make a CONCLUSIVE judgement, but if the evidence we do have is positive then it can form the beginnings of a judgement/ Tbh we'll all see when some americans go over to Japan's worldwide tournament in April

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And by the way, what is the "Established Norm"anyway? Maybe to them, our rule set sucks.

We're talking about the tier list made by the BBR, which took into account the BBR Recommended Ruleset, so it's safe to assume that that is the established norm, as far as this tier list goes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm not even arguing for a tier list push. My thoughts on where he should be are still formulating but i think to say we are 'meat-riding' is unfair.

false, I only said that gheb meat rides japan, which is an established fact, you can ask anybody. I didnt say anything about pit players.

And by the way, what is the "Established Norm"anyway? Maybe to them, our rule set sucks.

We're talking about the tier list made by the BBR, which took into account the BBR Recommended Ruleset, so it's safe to assume that that is the established norm, as far as this tier list goes.

this. also, SFP, your 2 statement arent even remotely related to each other.

Edit: We may not have enough reasonable evidence to make a CONCLUSIVE judgement, but if the evidence we do have is positive then it can form the beginnings of a judgement/ Tbh we'll all see when some americans go over to Japan's worldwide tournament in April

1. they tried that, Pit was way higher in the last list because of that, and now hes dropped back down because nobody lived up to the hype.
2. Who from america is actually going to that tournament?
seems like kinda short notice...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

2. Who from america is actually going to that tournament?
seems like kinda short notice...

Yeah--That's why I can't go.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I meatride Japan hard.

 

[Damix91]

MASASHI ISNT PLAYING PIT ANYMORE?!?!?!?

THANK YOU GOD,

now we can have people stop meatriding japan like pit is a good character or something.

From the best video thread as a response to a video posted by Kadaj showing Mashashi as MK vs Kyuubi as ICS. Don't lie DA Kid

 

[Deleted member]

This page is evil.

Ganon tier page. Let's talk about Ganon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Hmmm... you are correct. I did say people, but I was SPECIFICALLY thinking of gheb when I posted that, see the post right above yours for proof.

 

[Laem]

Page 666

DUMM DUMM DUMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is page 250. 40 posts per page or get out of here.

 

[Espy Rose]

Only if you're on that pansy 20ppg nonsense, Laem.

 

[Deleted member]

Espy.

I haven't :3'd you in a while...

So :3

:333333333333333333333333

 

[Seagull Joe]

PAGE 666 OF THE TIER LIST DISCUSSION

AWWWWWWWWW

/caps

 

[~ Gheb ~]

11 posts till 10.000

 

[Neon!]

Dk and fox will stay in mid tier for the same reason: Chain grabs.

 

[Laem]

I am a proud representative of the 20ppp

although i guess its inferior in every way.

 

[Seagull Joe]

ROFL. Me too.^

Also, TKD not using Fox matters more for himself then anything else. Maybe he didn't feel like putting into a lot of work at WGF because using Fox, consistently Short hop triple laser, and other precise techs are very draining. I don't think Fox is underrated. I think he belongs where he is at this moment.

Secondaries don't make Fox better at winning tournaments, they make the player better at winning tournaments.

However when you look at these "hard" counters, you gotta wonder how bad they really are. When has DEHF ever even lost to a pikachu. Fox and Falco don't get hard countered the way Wolf does. All their hard counters are characters that they can generally overwhelms in most areas except for a chaingrab or 2.

Wolf is only hard countered by D3, Wario (With cg) and Pikachu in reality. And those matchups are all 40-60. Wario without cg is even.

Fox gets hard countered by Sheik, Fox, and Ice climbers.

Falco gets hard countered by Pikachu and Ice climbers.

 

[Chuee]

Falco vs IC isn't that bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Wolf doesn't suffer against Pika nearly as much as Fox does.

@Chuee, tell that to Shugo.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Falco vs IC isn't that bad.

It's still at least 40-60, which makes it a hard counter. When we're talking about hard counters is that the ratio involved?

 

[Hylian]

Falco vs IC isn't that bad.

No, it's that bad. As bad as pika easily.

 

[Chuee]

From what I've heard it's not as bad as previously thought.
@seagull: hard counters are 65-35 and up.

 

[Hylian]

There hasn't really been a lot of top IC's vs Falco. Atomsk and Lain have both beaten larry though when they've played and I watch even players like cheese play larry at mlg and only lose because he dropped cg's. Just watching the match it looks obvious that Ic's destroy falco. I would really love to play larry in tournament he's probably the only person that could convince me otherwise.

 

[Chuee]

Last time I remember Larry and Atomsk played, was that tourney TKD won a few months back.
Atomsk beat Larry in winners but lost in losers.
I even remember Atomsk saying the MU isn't that bad in an Apex interview.

 

[Laem]

MINE

its sooo mine

whatever atomsk says is probably right (didnt read)