Wow it puts his whole body in it? with ness only his head does, meaning you can dodge something like falco's laser, but not marths fsmash, bcuz his lower body is still on the regular plain.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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It's probably just his head, actually.
disasterABDUL
Smash Ace
the video of the luigi thing is actually the first related video to that yoshi one
Poltergust
Smash Master
I wonder how many other moves put characters into the z-axis. Two other moves, in addition to the ones mentioned above, also do this: Lucas' f-smash (while it's charging) and Dedede's spot-dodge.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Ripple, that would be awesome, cus then I wouldnt get grabbed out of the air when I read somebody and try to jump over their grab.
GimR
GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
This ain't street fighter
This is Wario. ;DThis ain't street fighter
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
This.
This is why saying something like "ganon is bad because you can punish side b on reaction" is dumb. Ganons aren't just going to be throwing it out there like it's a bad catchphrase, and you probably won't expect it at least a couple times.
But that also works both ways, depending on the move.
Unless you are right next to the person when you side B as Ganon, you have to wait and travel to your opponent before the move lands. These additional frames of your character in motion can negate the time frame the opponent was "shocked" before he responded. If it takes me 20 frames to both realize what you are doing and respond to it, but your move doesn't reach near me until frame 30, then that's not gonna be a problem.
The other thing is that yes, while most reaction timing tests are based on twitch response, there are definitely moments in Brawl where you can reasonable expect a certain response or situation, and be prepared for it instead of reacting to it "cold". A good example: I noticeably mis-space an aerial on your shield. However, your only punishment is a shield grab: you don't have the time or range to drop shield and attack me, and OOS options like Usmash or Upb are out of the question. In this scenario, I can prepare myself in case I get grabbed by inputting mashes before I get grabbed. If I land and I see that I am not grabbed, I can stop. If I get grabbed, you're already mashing so at worst the only thing left to do would be mashing harder/faster.
It's like that for regular attacks as well. If I use an attack that whiffs around Ike, but the only thing fast enough and guaranteed to punish me is his Jab, then there's no harm in preemptively inputting good SDI directions. If I tried to SDI his jab on reaction starting cold, it would be pretty damn hard. But if you believe that to be the most likely scenario, you can reasonably anticipate it and react to it better/faster.
That's another reason why SDIing multi hit moves seems a lot easier than regular moves. If your opponent is using that multi hit move, it means he's committed to it. There's no "Hey I wonder if he is using Fair and also gonna Dsmash at the same time" because he's already using Fair. If you quickly analyze that he's doing some sort of action that's committed til the end, and weed out obvious wrong answers "Multi Hit move, he is facing forward and attacking from the air. Only thing that fits that is Fair", then you can quickly react to it and SDI before you get hit by a large portion of the attack.
Moves with a recognizable startup animation/Sound (not specifically duration, but actual animation) also tend to give you more time to react. Take Wario Dair vs his Fsmash for example: both moves have the same amount of startup IIRC at 8 frames. The difference between the two? You can see Wario flip over and grunt before he does Dair. His Fsmash however he looks still and then all of a sudden BAM. For faster moves, usually no room for those features to reliably be spotted and reacted to early. Past that however, that can make a noticeable difference.
Unless you are right next to the person when you side B as Ganon, you have to wait and travel to your opponent before the move lands. These additional frames of your character in motion can negate the time frame the opponent was "shocked" before he responded. If it takes me 20 frames to both realize what you are doing and respond to it, but your move doesn't reach near me until frame 30, then that's not gonna be a problem.
The other thing is that yes, while most reaction timing tests are based on twitch response, there are definitely moments in Brawl where you can reasonable expect a certain response or situation, and be prepared for it instead of reacting to it "cold". A good example: I noticeably mis-space an aerial on your shield. However, your only punishment is a shield grab: you don't have the time or range to drop shield and attack me, and OOS options like Usmash or Upb are out of the question. In this scenario, I can prepare myself in case I get grabbed by inputting mashes before I get grabbed. If I land and I see that I am not grabbed, I can stop. If I get grabbed, you're already mashing so at worst the only thing left to do would be mashing harder/faster.
It's like that for regular attacks as well. If I use an attack that whiffs around Ike, but the only thing fast enough and guaranteed to punish me is his Jab, then there's no harm in preemptively inputting good SDI directions. If I tried to SDI his jab on reaction starting cold, it would be pretty damn hard. But if you believe that to be the most likely scenario, you can reasonably anticipate it and react to it better/faster.
That's another reason why SDIing multi hit moves seems a lot easier than regular moves. If your opponent is using that multi hit move, it means he's committed to it. There's no "Hey I wonder if he is using Fair and also gonna Dsmash at the same time" because he's already using Fair. If you quickly analyze that he's doing some sort of action that's committed til the end, and weed out obvious wrong answers "Multi Hit move, he is facing forward and attacking from the air. Only thing that fits that is Fair", then you can quickly react to it and SDI before you get hit by a large portion of the attack.
Moves with a recognizable startup animation/Sound (not specifically duration, but actual animation) also tend to give you more time to react. Take Wario Dair vs his Fsmash for example: both moves have the same amount of startup IIRC at 8 frames. The difference between the two? You can see Wario flip over and grunt before he does Dair. His Fsmash however he looks still and then all of a sudden BAM. For faster moves, usually no room for those features to reliably be spotted and reacted to early. Past that however, that can make a noticeable difference.
I believe so. What I remember is that he gains super armor from 8-11 I think. I don't remember if he first gets super armor before or during his hitbox.
Edit: Nvm. It first comes out frame 9. I was right thinking he got super armor a bit before the actual hitbox.
Same with Dair too apparently. Frame 9 as well.
Edit: Nvm. It first comes out frame 9. I was right thinking he got super armor a bit before the actual hitbox.
Same with Dair too apparently. Frame 9 as well.
Browny
Smash Hater
lol if anyone thinks they are going to react to something in 9 frames with an appropriate response regularly. The only reason you ever reacted to it was because you predicted he would do it and acted accordingly
...
I don't think people were talking about punishing things on cold reaction. At all. Most discussion so far has been "In situations where you can take an strongly educated guess and preemptively start reacting or prepare yourself to react faster when the event does take place". Not "you can always punish Wario's Fsmash on pure reaction, even if you have no clue when it's coming out".
What we're talking about is getting over the cold reaction "barrier" or limitations by applying reasonable planning/prediction. If we're seeing whether I can SDI Ike's jab on command, thrown out at random, of course not you can't reliably SDI that. But if I use an aerial on his shield that whiffs, and I realize the only thing that can punish me is Jab, then lets be honest SDIing jab here is noticeably easier. I don't have to wait to be fully hit and then go "OOPS I GOT JABBED LOLZ", when you can reasonably recognize "Oh hey I mis-spaced on shield, but the good news is that his punishment is basically this move. I know that worst case scenario he will hit me with it, so I'm gonna plan ahead."
Or to take it further, Wario's Dair: It takes 9 frames for the first hitbox to come out. But it also takes time for him to drift towards yourself and get close enough for him to nab you with that first hitbox immediately. If he does the move early or has to travel before reaching you, that gives you more time to realize what he is doing. Again, fast moves aren't reliably punishable when tossed out at random. But when you understand the whole context of a situation, you can plan ahead and be more "prepared" to quickly act.
I don't think people were talking about punishing things on cold reaction. At all. Most discussion so far has been "In situations where you can take an strongly educated guess and preemptively start reacting or prepare yourself to react faster when the event does take place". Not "you can always punish Wario's Fsmash on pure reaction, even if you have no clue when it's coming out".
What we're talking about is getting over the cold reaction "barrier" or limitations by applying reasonable planning/prediction. If we're seeing whether I can SDI Ike's jab on command, thrown out at random, of course not you can't reliably SDI that. But if I use an aerial on his shield that whiffs, and I realize the only thing that can punish me is Jab, then lets be honest SDIing jab here is noticeably easier. I don't have to wait to be fully hit and then go "OOPS I GOT JABBED LOLZ", when you can reasonably recognize "Oh hey I mis-spaced on shield, but the good news is that his punishment is basically this move. I know that worst case scenario he will hit me with it, so I'm gonna plan ahead."
Or to take it further, Wario's Dair: It takes 9 frames for the first hitbox to come out. But it also takes time for him to drift towards yourself and get close enough for him to nab you with that first hitbox immediately. If he does the move early or has to travel before reaching you, that gives you more time to realize what he is doing. Again, fast moves aren't reliably punishable when tossed out at random. But when you understand the whole context of a situation, you can plan ahead and be more "prepared" to quickly act.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Kayyyy :DLOL you're a funny guy orion XD
Sorry I couldn't get you more info than what I did, though, Pink Fresh. We currently have someone working on the data and I'll let you know as soon as it's up, promise <3
I might give you some before it's all "done" if you keep it a secret
I jest, I jest, but not really. :D
love ya orion
Yem I knew about the whole two hitbox thing (which is why marth can fair and make it explode but not get hit =_=)
If they don't interact, then why does PK fire "eat" the laser?
shoot a laser then PK fire. The PK fire will hit the laser make it disappear and keep going.
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Poltergust
Smash Master
That's strange... I don't think that Yoshi's eggs interact with lasers. I have no clue, then. *shrug*
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Wario is quite the sinister one eh? XD I love Wario's Fsmash.
Woah another incredibly great post by DMG
Anyways, about PKfire, I think it was like a hurt or some kind of box with "crappy priority"...
Getting hit by something causes it to die and activate the second hitbox which is like transcendent I guess. That is why you can clash, but it only explodes on your face.
Lucas mains correct me if I am wrong.
Anyways, about PKfire, I think it was like a hurt or some kind of box with "crappy priority"...
Getting hit by something causes it to die and activate the second hitbox which is like transcendent I guess. That is why you can clash, but it only explodes on your face.
Lucas mains correct me if I am wrong.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I've actually managed to SDI the first hit of PK Fire a couple of times and avoid the flame pillar. It's pretty weird.
On that note, I remember one instance in which I hit someone with an egg, but they somehow avoided the explosion hitbox, dealing a whopping 1% worth of damage. I think I've only ever seen that happen once.
On that note, I remember one instance in which I hit someone with an egg, but they somehow avoided the explosion hitbox, dealing a whopping 1% worth of damage. I think I've only ever seen that happen once.
right here.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i lurk a lot
no going to tuornaments and experimenting a lot by yourself are the best ways
also talking to players better than yourself, aim ect is useful
omg link or upload LOL
well in determining if mk should be banned or not... yes. youre talking about TOURNAMENT level play, meaning highly competitive. competitive -> top. the rest, while being relevant still isnt as important
otherwise i could argue ics being broken, they absolutely DESTROY low/mid levels of play
you mean most of the tournament viable characters
im getting better at it but actually you can in shield sdi since you KNOW its coming and then shield grab
a little far fetched i know but its def possible lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptwNTmtKRRc
look at the first fair in the video
i literally just reacted to the sound of the fsmash
its also the same way i killed shadow in teams w/ upB in teams ftw game 1
any character w. a 6 frame grab or a decent fair/nair can do that...
of course but its easier to capitalize on them if you know they are coming. the character obviously gets worse if he has less options...
vs really good players its actually pretty hard to do the normal mk **** to get off the ledge. normal ledge options are okay, but mk is light and getting hit at the ledge actually causes you to die super early :/
jump off the ledge has great frame data iirc but puts you in a bad position
if mk tries to DJ from the ledge to the stage you can just hold shield and always grab first and if he does and other air you just shield grab and push him back offstage :/
mk can bait this by empty jumping and then trying to dair or nado but neither of those are that great. gliding is easy to punish when youre that close, SO much startup
gregs was actually just jumping and dairing me with falco when i did that last night LOL
well if you want to get that deeply into mixups getting ftilted really isnt that bad vs a lot of good characters because they outweight MK in the risk reward ratio
Note down that the overlay of Dtilt in that image is for the first frame it's active. It might reach further horizontally than what the image shows.
Comparison between Ftilt1 and Dtilt. Pay attention to the hitbox closest to MK in both attacks. There's not much of a height loss in Dtilt from Ftilt1. Plus, MK crouches down a little during Dtilt, while MK's hurtbox moves up slightly during Ftilt1, so the hitbox's height change is more than compensated by MK's hurtbox movement. Mostly a deterrence for SOME SH approaches but not all.
The above is a pretty weak point, but what happens if MK starts mixing things up between Ftilt2 and Dtilt? Dtilt can't be used immediately after Ftilt1, but Ftilt2 can, at the cost of some endlag. If you try to attack under the presumption MK's gonna Dtilt, you're gonna get *****. And the opponent will still be left guessing whether or not MK's going to use Ftilt3 or not, all the while giving MK time to recover from Ftilt2. And it goes without saying if the opponent waits too long, BAM Dtilt.
Dropping your shield to attack at any point is risky because MK's other hits of Ftilt will hit you before you can get to him.
IE i would rather retreat than get snake ftilted, falco cged, or whatever
even getting faired by marth or something has more followups than mks ftilt at low-mid percents
while its a GREAT move what am i going to chase you with afterward if you DI away?
nado is SUPER obvious, everything else i have to dash for which actually limits my options
so sure, most of the time mk MIGHT win like a skirmish, but if he ****s up hes getting the **** for it.
Yes. But SDI'ing up will put you above MK which might make it harder for you to land...okay... but if youre getting hit anyway its better than getting killed....
LOL like really, also plenty of good characters have momentum mixups
diddys has the popgun momentum change
falco has amazing jump speed and long/short side B
marth can stall with side B, change directions with sbreaker, counter ect,
snake has nade changeup
like obviously i can still potentially cover these options but its not like youre auto losing a stock, you probably will eat a uair or nado before you land unless you get hard read
depending on the character and the situation grabs are more rewarding, although i do agree you can just use an aerial
it takes a LOT of practice but you really can just drop shield and then walk forward and then dash without even thinking about it after youve done it enough times
there are 30 frames of lag yes, but even more than that that you get to SEE the situation and then respond accordingly, not cold like DMG said
its the best tactic to PLANK which is not as doable until the end of the timer because of a LGL
i think mks best playstyle is actually to bait/camp until you get a chance to rush in and apply proper pressure with tilts/fairs and make reads for grabs, because thats when you can get the opportunity to set up for potential gimps and followups
mindlessly dair camping or being near the ledge, while being mentally frustrating actually give you less stage control- which means less options.
if the game naturally runs slow and its towards the end of the timer, THEN its probably best to abuse planking
LOL
idk im just kool like that :D
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Im low-mid level. Just like the character I play as. Ironic isn't it?
Orion*
Smash Researcher
"well in determining if mk should be banned or not... yes. youre talking about TOURNAMENT level play, meaning highly competitive. competitive -> top. the rest, while being relevant still isnt as important
otherwise i could argue ics being broken, they absolutely DESTROY low/mid levels of play"
dean.
.
I don't think that's irony...
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
people in mid levels of play have no problem spacing well enough to avoid ICs trash grab range.
most have also realized how important mashing is, and if they haven't yet, just playing an ICs a couples times will change that.
low level, however, is a different story.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
This is the internet. You don't have to make sense here.
John12346
Smash Master
I said mid-high levels of play, and that level is where MK gets most of his gimps, because people at such levels don't really know what to do against him. How to avoid, how to recover afterwards, etc.
At these levels, ICs aren't as potent. I see far too many Popos losing their Nanas before they can do any real damage. Keeping the ICs together and performing CGs are significantly harder than MK using Dair/UpB in midair...
And yes, mid and high levels are where we'll find a vast majority of players...
A few of characters are viable because they have 4-6 matchups against MK, and see him more often than what would otherwise be, y'know, other counters to their characters. I personally believe MK causes players to lack MU knowledge for other characters, because everyone's worrying about, "omg how do i beat mk?" >___>you mean most of the tournament viable characters
It's not possible. If MK randomizes the release of his Fsmash out of charge, you can't react in time to shield SDI. You'll more than likely end up rolling behind him, which usually ends up with him Dsmash/Nairing you.im getting better at it but actually you can in shield sdi since you KNOW its coming and then shield grab
a little far fetched i know but its def possible lol
That's because you were already rushing in. It looks more like you were already in his face by the time he committed to Fsmash, so you finished the job. Shadow didn't even have time to get to the charging part of his Fsmash. If you weren't that close to begin with, things likely would've played out differently there...
You have 24 frames of invincibility as soon as you are able to move off the ledge. Fair autocancels on the ground on frame 21. 3 frames left to perform a defensive option, grab, or Dsmash/Dtilt. Opponent cannot reliably what you're going to use. He has to guess with 1/3 odds.
That's just one example. If the opponent gets too close, for example, MK can ledgedrop midair jump Uair off the ledge and still have 11 more frames to do stuff invincibly as long as he doesn't land(you still get landing lag on the ground if you land within 8 frames after the move ends... what's up with that?). Aerial invincibility for 8 frames... Shuttle Loop? Dimensional Cape? Nado? There's no way the opponent can react to this reliably either.
Look, my point here is that between MK's Ftilt, Dtilt, GSL, Nado, Dsmash, Grab, Dashgrab, Dash Attack and OOS Nair, all of which occur outside the range of human reaction, MK has a clearly superior ground game to characters who are obviously not programmed to be on the ground 100% of the time(aka, he shouldn't bother against Olimar, Diddy, Snake...)well if you want to get that deeply into mixups getting ftilted really isnt that bad vs a lot of good characters because they outweight MK in the risk reward ratio
IE i would rather retreat than get snake ftilted, falco cged, or whatever
even getting faired by marth or something has more followups than mks ftilt at low-mid percents
while its a GREAT move what am i going to chase you with afterward if you DI away?
nado is SUPER obvious, everything else i have to dash for which actually limits my options
so sure, most of the time mk MIGHT win like a skirmish, but if he ****s up hes getting the **** for it.
It's way too much for non ground oriented characters to deal with.
okay... but if youre getting hit anyway its better than getting killed....
LOL like really, also plenty of good characters have momentum mixups
diddys has the popgun momentum change
falco has amazing jump speed and long/short side B
marth can stall with side B, change directions with sbreaker, counter ect,
snake has nade changeup
like obviously i can still potentially cover these options but its not like youre auto losing a stock, you probably will eat a uair or nado before you land unless you get hard read
Asking players to outrun those two moves while above MK is just unreasonable. Look at the horizontal and vertical coverage those two moves have. You'd have to pretty much be Jigglypuff, Yoshi, or Wario to outrun that kind of stuff.
Plus, you can't do momentum changing things out of hitstun. Doesn't work.
I'm not so sure it's as easy to punish as you say. Characters with slow normalfall speeds and fast fastfall speeds have this tendency to being able to grab the ledge easier.it takes a LOT of practice but you really can just drop shield and then walk forward and then dash without even thinking about it after youve done it enough times
there are 30 frames of lag yes, but even more than that that you get to SEE the situation and then respond accordingly, not cold like DMG said
Take Will for example. I've seen more than enough people knock his DK off the stage to the point that it forces him to bucket brake with Spinning Kong, then subsequently fail to hit him as he goes for the ledge, because of his smart use of fastfalling.
MK's smaller. Don't you think it'd be even HARDER to hit him?
Well, this is mostly me speaking for other members, but there are TONS of people who agree that if planking is too good, then it should be cut off at the source, aka MK himself.its the best tactic to PLANK which is not as doable until the end of the timer because of a LGL
i think mks best playstyle is actually to bait/camp until you get a chance to rush in and apply proper pressure with tilts/fairs and make reads for grabs, because thats when you can get the opportunity to set up for potential gimps and followups
mindlessly dair camping or being near the ledge, while being mentally frustrating actually give you less stage control- which means less options.
if the game naturally runs slow and its towards the end of the timer, THEN its probably best to abuse planking
If LGLs are necessary for the game to run well, then it's essentially the same as saying MK's planking is too good, hence it must be limited. A lot of people make the jump from that to being pro-ban, tbh. Not me, though.
As far as myself, I'm passive on this matter... for now. I may take sides later on.
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Right there. Though the irony about tournament for me is I can never make it to one...=/i lurk a lot
no going to tuornaments and experimenting a lot by yourself are the best ways
also talking to players better than yourself, aim ect is useful
omg link or upload LOL
Ussi
Smash Legend
its not irony, its called majority of the community that bothers to post on forums -_-;
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Ussi's just mad cuz his character fails at recovering. Carry on.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
lol at everyone thinking it's so easy just to jump out against the FASTEST air character and footstool him when 95% of the time we recover high, have 5 up b's, and save our DJ. Plus we have uair which comes out in 6ish frames, has a slight disjoint, and KOs at low 100s.
Try again super theory bros
Try again super theory bros
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