Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

I footstool Yoshi after an egg toss, and then I fart on him

 

[Z'zgashi]

DMG > Sakurai

 

[Death Arcana]

I don't think that's irony...

Irony is your avi looking mad ready to beat the **** out of someone
But he hates violence

Spoiler

but can't control himself

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol at everyone thinking it's so easy just to jump out against the FASTEST air character and footstool him when 95% of the time we recover high, have 5 up b's, and save our DJ. Plus we have uair which comes out in 6ish frames, has a slight disjoint, and KOs at low 100s.

Try again super theory bros

Oh christ, this is the only community that takes the idea of theorycrafting and sums all of it up as bad.

Just as you have low level and high level players.
There is a difference between bad theory and good.

Bad theory=footstooling Yoshi with ease. Seriously, its a stupid idea, its difficult for alot of characters to pull off and why do people forget that footstools can be "blocked" by simply using an attack?

This is called being ignorant, people really need to play the game more.

Good theory= If I am using Ganondorf and I am facing Metaknight, I am probably going to die offstage.

Believing anything will work out 100% is flat out ignorant.
There are things such as option select that can FORCE a situation, but there is nothing that is 100% guaranteed.
Outside of MK winning most of the money =3

 

[-LzR-]

If we aren't allowed to theorycraft, then what the **** are we talking about here then?

 

[bigman40]

Gashi, you realized you were being trolled right?

 

[DMG]

If we aren't allowed to theorycraft, then what the **** are we talking about here then?

Theoretical talk about reality

 

[Yikarur]

lol at everyone thinking it's so easy just to jump out against the FASTEST air character and footstool him when 95% of the time we recover high, have 5 up b's, and save our DJ. Plus we have uair which comes out in 6ish frames, has a slight disjoint, and KOs at low 100s.

Try again super theory bros

you know that we have set speed while double jumping? our whole double jump ignores airspeed somehow additionally it's only MAX AIR SPEED, the acceleration isn't that top at all and only about 3 of our 5 upBs make sense :3
Uair comes out in frame 5 and who care's that disjoint, if you DJ Uair your opponent can easily airdodge through you on reaction.



Favorit Hobby: falsify and talking down apparent positive things about Yoshi
:D

 

[-LzR-]

Yoshi seems to be a really good character actually. Just... Dat shield... Gives me the creeps...
How the hell do you guys beat someone like MK who just attacks your shield all day?

 

[Yikarur]

we don't shield that much and if we shield only when we get hit, we can roll away on hit with a momentum boost. (this is theory crafting, often we shield without being hit but this is the optimal option)

 

[-LzR-]

What kind of momentumboost? Is that Yoshi specific?

 

[Yikarur]

I'm not sure if its Yoshi specific or not, I've never realised it with other chars that much.
Could be a combination of Yoshis Traction (very low) and his shield.
If You get hit by a strong attack and roll away you roll very far.
If you get hit by a strong attack and roll towards the attack it's like you do a very bad spotdodge xD

 

[-LzR-]

Ok, but that doesn't really matter to the opponent if you get away. But I guess it's as good as you are getting. At least your attributes are good for avoiding hits.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm not sure if its Yoshi specific or not, I've never realised it with other chars that much.
Could be a combination of Yoshis Traction (very low) and his shield.
If You get hit by a strong attack and roll away you roll very far.
If you get hit by a strong attack and roll towards the attack it's like you do a very bad spotdodge xD

Like sheilding an attack at the ledge, falling off and either DJ'ing to grab the ledge or just attack after falling off?
So what i've been trying to explain over skype a month or two back was called Traction/momentumboost?

Oh boy, I learn stuff everyday.
Also, what Yoshi in the right mind would roll TOWARDS someone just to be grabbed or attacked again.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I was wondering myself. Yoshi seems to have bad out of shield options due to his egg shield he puts us and he can't grab since it has nasty start up and ending lag. I can never understand Yoshi. XD

 

[Yikarur]

Shieldgrab isn't as bad as people think it to be.

 

[Sinister Slush]

As horrifying as it may seem, Yoshi's Sheildgrab actually has a use in potential situations against some characters.

 

[Poltergust]

I actually learned something totally awesome a couple of days ago.

Yoshi can shield-grab Lucario's f-smash. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

...Actually, now that I think about it, does shield-stun and sliding increase the higher Lucario's aura is?

 

[DMG]

Yes

The stronger his Aura grows, the more shield stun, sliding, knockback, and damage you will take.

 

[Orion*]

I said mid-high levels of play, and that level is where MK gets most of his gimps, because people at such levels don't really know what to do against him. How to avoid, how to recover afterwards, etc.

so because people are ignorant of a situation- we need to ban something? LOL

At these levels, ICs aren't as potent. I see far too many Popos losing their Nanas before they can do any real damage. Keeping the ICs together and performing CGs are significantly harder than MK using Dair/UpB in midair...

And yes, mid and high levels are where we'll find a vast majority of players...

okay i used a bad example

-.-

A few of characters are viable because they have 4-6 matchups against MK, and see him more often than what would otherwise be, y'know, other counters to their characters. I personally believe MK causes players to lack MU knowledge for other characters, because everyone's worrying about, "omg how do i beat mk?" >___>

your point..?

although im curious what characters you think would be viable w/out mk that arent already...

It's not possible. If MK randomizes the release of his Fsmash out of charge, you can't react in time to shield SDI. You'll more than likely end up rolling behind him, which usually ends up with him Dsmash/Nairing you.

if you KNOW something is going to happen, then its really not that hard...

although even if the fsmash hits your shiled i dont know whats so bad lol

That's because you were already rushing in. It looks more like you were already in his face by the time he committed to Fsmash, so you finished the job. Shadow didn't even have time to get to the charging part of his Fsmash. If you weren't that close to begin with, things likely would've played out differently there...

if i wasnt in his face i would have just waited and then dash attacked or tilted after...

You have 24 frames of invincibility as soon as you are able to move off the ledge. Fair autocancels on the ground on frame 21. 3 frames left to perform a defensive option, grab, or Dsmash/Dtilt. Opponent cannot reliably what you're going to use. He has to guess with 1/3 odds.

show me a video of someone doing a perfect invincible fair in tournament and i will care

That's just one example. If the opponent gets too close, for example, MK can ledgedrop midair jump Uair off the ledge and still have 11 more frames to do stuff invincibly as long as he doesn't land(you still get landing lag on the ground if you land within 8 frames after the move ends... what's up with that?). Aerial invincibility for 8 frames... Shuttle Loop? Dimensional Cape? Nado? There's no way the opponent can react to this reliably either.

just airdodge before you land for uair...

but you said 11 then 8 frames... -.-

anyway youre OFFSTAGE, why does it matter. youre not hitting your opponent with any of that crap- they should just wait and then an LGL will hit

Look, my point here is that between MK's Ftilt, Dtilt, GSL, Nado, Dsmash, Grab, Dashgrab, Dash Attack and OOS Nair, all of which occur outside the range of human reaction, MK has a clearly superior ground game to characters who are obviously not programmed to be on the ground 100% of the time(aka, he shouldn't bother against Olimar, Diddy, Snake...)

It's way too much for non ground oriented characters to deal with.

"in other words, characters with bad ground games cant beat characters with good ones, but characters with better ground games can"

-.-

Spoiler

Asking players to outrun those two moves while above MK is just unreasonable. Look at the horizontal and vertical coverage those two moves have. You'd have to pretty much be Jigglypuff, Yoshi, or Wario to outrun that kind of stuff.

Plus, you can't do momentum changing things out of hitstun. Doesn't work.

"obviously i can still potentially cover these options but its not like youre auto losing a stock, you probably will eat a uair or nado before you land unless you get hard read"

I'm not so sure it's as easy to punish as you say. Characters with slow normalfall speeds and fast fastfall speeds have this tendency to being able to grab the ledge easier.

Take Will for example. I've seen more than enough people knock his DK off the stage to the point that it forces him to bucket brake with Spinning Kong, then subsequently fail to hit him as he goes for the ledge, because of his smart use of fastfalling.

will has a MUCH longer time AND space to put himself at an angle to properly do that

mk has a space thats VERY small that he has to maintain being in...

Well, this is mostly me speaking for other members, but there are TONS of people who agree that if planking is too good, then it should be cut off at the source, aka MK himself.

If LGLs are necessary for the game to run well, then it's essentially the same as saying MK's planking is too good, hence it must be limited. A lot of people make the jump from that to being pro-ban, tbh. Not me, though.

As far as myself, I'm passive on this matter... for now. I may take sides later on.

LOL what is this a cult?

I footstool Yoshi after an egg toss, and then I fart on him

>_< vids or it didnt happen

Theoretical talk about reality

and then i looked at your sig and mind tripped

 

[Shaya]

I hear someones talking theoretic(s) about reality.

Count me in.

Marth hard counters Meta Knight
you just need to NOT SUCK (7 frame reaction speed guarantees ultimate victory)

 

[John12346]

so because people are ignorant of a situation- we need to ban something? LOL

Not that, but I firmly believe MK is dominating a lot of the mid-high levels of play and preventing a lot of players from rising to the top level.

your point..?

although im curious what characters you think would be viable w/out mk that arent already...

Idk... R.O.B., Kirby, Peach? MAYBE Marth, only because he allegedly has 2 bad MUs(MK and Dedede), but idk, I haven't been seeing Marth place high at all lately, which makes me think he's not viable for some reason.

if you KNOW something is going to happen, then its really not that hard...

although even if the fsmash hits your shiled i dont know whats so bad lol

Listen up, MK can release that Fsmash at any point he wants over the course of 120 frames. Since there's no way for you to know when he'll do that(unless he fullcharges), taking shield stun and endlag into account, that doesn't even give you 10 frames to react.

And it's kind of frustrating when one can't punish one of MK's hardest hitting moves.

show me a video of someone doing a perfect invincible fair in tournament and i will care

I'm sure you've seen enough tourney action to see that ledgehopped Fair is the go-to move while MK's on the edge... why do you think people have such an issue punishing it?

Ease of use, and frame advantage on the invincibility.

just airdodge before you land for uair...

but you said 11 then 8 frames... -.-

anyway youre OFFSTAGE, why does it matter. youre not hitting your opponent with any of that crap- they should just wait and then an LGL will hit

It's 11 frames, my bad.

What I meant in this scenario is that MK jumps over the ledge with 1 Uair, then uses the remaining 11 invincibility frames to do stuff.

"in other words, characters with bad ground games cant beat characters with good ones, but characters with better ground games can"

-.-

That's because there are only like, 4 ground oriented characters. Snake, Diddy, Olimar, and ICs. Everyone else pretty much gets full bodied by the blunt of MK's ground game.

"obviously i can still potentially cover these options but its not like youre auto losing a stock, you probably will eat a uair or nado before you land unless you get hard read"

But ideally, a player would want to land every time without taking any hits. MK, over here, guarantees one or more hits because of oversized hitboxes. You don't see a problem with that...? Especially considering there aren't any other characters who can expect a hit on you in the air(Unless you're Ike and punishing an airdodge with Uair LOL)?

will has a MUCH longer time AND space to put himself at an angle to properly do that

mk has a space thats VERY small that he has to maintain being in...

The opponent also has a much longer time to react to Will headed for the ledge. They only get 30 frames to stop MK before he reaches the ledge, and that's also including the fact that they're likely not on top of MK, since he was just in the middle of Nado.

LOL what is this a cult?

Idk lol but that seems to be the general consensus. I only semi-agree with it for the time being.

I can hear them now. "Join us... Join usssss.........."

 

[Kitamerby]

John, you do realize that in general, there's no form of buffering from the ledge, and that double jumping itself takes a few frames, right?

MK doesn't have 11 frames above stage-level to do whatever he wants after uair. He has 11 frames below the stage to do another uair, and that's pretty much it. Fair doesn't magically autocancel as soon as he needs the invincibility to end. The only character who can actually land onstage with invincibility left over is Peach iirc.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I could have sworn double jumping takes only a single frame, and after wards you can start whatever aerials you want.

 

[Kitamerby]

You also need to factor in human error considering the fact that it's impossible to buffer a ledge-release, or anything from it.

The end result will be quite a few frames lost.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You also need to factor in human error considering the fact that it's impossible to buffer a ledge-release, or anything from it.

The end result will be quite a few frames lost.

If you factor in human error then it would fall both ways, its easier on the one attempting to plank though so it evens out.


Let alone you didn't exactly answer what I said.

 

[Shaya]

You start to rise in 1 frame... you can do any attacks during that time.

 

[Kitamerby]

But the issue here is exactly when that 1 frame starts.

The later it starts, the less invincibility there is to work with.


If you're simply asking a mechanics-based question, then yes. You only need to worry about one frame before you can do an aerial.


Really, though, I'm just trying to be a **** and mess around with Johnnumbers, but it would appear that I have failed.

I must now head deep into the mountains and work on my trolling.

 

[John12346]

How the **** was that trolling lmao

You brought up a valid argument; I just wasn't the first to respond to it this time.

 

[Steam]

I actually learned something totally awesome a couple of days ago.

Yoshi can shield-grab Lucario's f-smash. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

...Actually, now that I think about it, does shield-stun and sliding increase the higher Lucario's aura is?

you didn't know this already? >.>

I didn't think yoshi could grab at perfect spacing tho, but that might be dependant on aura. Though Ftilt is generally a much better option for lucario anyways.

 

[Orion*]

If you factor in human error then it would fall both ways, its easier on the one attempting to plank though so it evens out.


Let alone you didn't exactly answer what I said.

thats why i asked for vids of people doing perfect invincible fairs in tournament

i see people fair off the ledge, but its not invincible and a lot of times its just to space.

i even saw m2k get usmashed by larry iirc at apex 2012 (MIGHT be the wrong set i can always find it again though)

 

[da K.I.D.]

wow wtf, this ***** orion predicting the future in this piece. already knows whats about to happen at apex 2012

 

[-LzR-]

Well I knew it, Orion is that awesome. He can predict stuff. So who will place 3rd in Apex 2012?

 

[Kitamerby]

Ofc Orion can see the future.

Unfortunately, 2012 is the year we're all going to die, so Apex will prob be the last Smash tournament in the world.

And John, I don't think of trolling itself as the giving of false information to provoke a response, but more of an attitude.

While my information was correct, it was still meant in an attitude that wanted to provoke a response, thus trolling.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Hardcore reads by Orion lol

 

[Orion*]

The smashlab and BBR have been developing a new way to see into the future.

 

[da K.I.D.]

so they finally realised sonic isnt bad?

 

[Browny]

rofl no. Theres a difference between knowing the truth, and accepting it. Its undeniable at this moment that Sonic isnt bad, but do you really think they would ever admit it, considering they still dont with all the proof from 09-10?

 

[DMG]

Define bad

I have everyone under DK labeled as bad. By that definition, Sonic is still bad.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i define bad as any character that realistically shouldnt be making money in any decent sized, (30+ people) tourneys.