Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

Edit: Nvm, this isn't worth it. If you want to continue using a broken ruleset, ignoring completely viable options for improvement and QQing about MK like little babies all day long then have fun.

The main thing I don't like about your arguments for additions or changes to the ruleset is that they tend to be "I'm right" or "Who's the authority to decide what is right or wrong?" instead of explaining WHY your alternative is viable or more viable than what we currently have.

"The % rule is bad and you need an alternative like Knockback, air time limit, damage dealt, etc"

"Why?"

"Who's to say I'm wrong and you're right?"

Lol. If you think Handicaps are more competitively sound than no handicaps, then explain why you think so. Not this "Who's to say what is better" or "You guys are wrong" nonsense, but a straightforward approach like "Allowing Handicaps would increase diversity and thought of gameplay" or something similar.

I don't mind looking at alternatives. Air time limits, no win through timeout, etc. But if people don't elaborate on WHY they are viable and instead focus on criticizing what is currently used or pull the generic "Who's to say you are correct" line we've heard before, then safe to say people won't take you seriously./

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DMG, I don't argue these things in public anymore. It just happens sometimes that I can't help it when I see something I want to comment on [either to troll or to start serious discussion; yes I do that at times]. I edited these posts out for the reasons you mentioned.

If you really want to know my actual standpoints behind that stuff I can do so via AIM / MSN. To be honest, I'm way beyond the point where I expect people to open their minds towards new ideas. I can't remember a case where somebody has been successfully changed his mind in this thread. That alone is reason enough for me to not go deeper into what I believe.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ITT: Shadowscrub84 is still in the BBR without any knowledge or skill at this game whatsoever. You should create a Back Room for Super Theory Brothers because that's the only place where you're actually useful.

Hm?
What was that?
Are you salty because people recognized you're just an idiot, who, likes to tell people to stop whining about MK, but then try and make rules to control the bat despite the scrubby mentality behind it?

Someone is a hypocrite!
*pinches your cheeks*

Its so cute when children try to argue.

Oh, but hey, if you want we'll money match.
If I win, you'll suffer humiliation and lose a good $50.
If I lose, you'll still be an idiot.

Seems like a win/win situation for me.

DMG, I don't argue these things in public anymore. It just happens sometimes that I can't help it when I see something I want to comment on [either to troll or to start serious discussion; yes I do that at times]. I edited these posts out for the reasons you mentioned.

If you really want to know my actual standpoints behind that stuff I can do so via AIM / MSN. To be honest, I'm way beyond the point where I expect people to open their minds towards new ideas. I can't remember a case where somebody has been successfully changed his mind in this thread. That alone is reason enough for me to not go deeper into what I believe.

Aren't you showing narrow minded behavior with statements such as "who are you to say this is better?". Such a statement would insinuate that you are incapable of actually disproving their argument and seek to only use ad hominem in an attempt to deflect the failings of your own logic.

Of course this would make sense considering you said if anyone wishes to know your "actual" stand point on the subject to contact you via IM. Yet somehow I can't help but sense you are trying to make it appear you are trolling, when many of your statements (which were quoted) were then edited out.

For someone who has these "actual" stand points kept private, you did a very good job at removing them.

b(^_^)b

By the way, you're theorizing right now. HYPOCRISY FTW!


In anycase, using handicaps would be the same as changing the damage ratio in brawl.

 

[Spelt]

ITT: Shadowscrub84 is still in the BBR without any knowledge or skill at this game whatsoever. You should create a Back Room for Super Theory Brothers because that's the only place where you're actually useful.

You realize the crap you've been pushing for the past like, 5 pages is all theory craft?

People should learn what words mean before they try to throw them around as insults.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"All right, now, play friendly!"

I can't remember--Do we think Sheik is good or not?

Can some characters reliably jump into Lucario's D-Air, SDI upward, and punish?

 

[Spelt]

If the tournament in question includes fox, wolf, or ganon, yes. Otherwise, **** Sheik.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I mean....I think Sheik is good but that may be a character bias.

 

[Fuujin]

"All right, now, play friendly!"

I can't remember--Do we think Sheik is good or not?

Can some characters reliably jump into Lucario's D-Air, SDI upward, and punish?

I dunno, but adding two slightly less bad MU's raises her two places on the Tier List.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hm?
What was that?
Are you salty because people recognized you're just an idiot, who, likes to tell people to stop whining about MK, but then try and make rules to control the bat despite the scrubby mentality behind it?

I ... don't do that. You just interpret it that way because you want to. You know nothing about my arguments whatsoever.

You realize the crap you've been pushing for the past like, 5 pages is all theory craft?

No, it's really not like that.

Sheik I think is neither good nor bad. I do think Zelda is a bit underrated though and that she actually can help Sheik's performance as Sheilda but the common opinion of Zelda is really low. I'm not sure about her being bottom 5 tbh. And she doesn't really **** Fox or Wolf ... they aren't easy match-ups for her.

 

[Chuee]

Sheik isn't good unless you consider the entire mid tier to be good.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sheik 4 life

amazing frame data and mobility, horrible character traits (fast, falling although this is more of a double edged sword, light, etc.)

 

[MJG]

Despite how bad some characters seem to be, no one should give up on that character.


*Randomness

 

[GimR]

Today is the last day to sign up for pound!

http://pound5.weebly.com/

 

[Ripple]

Despite how bad some characters seem to be, no one should give up on that character.


*Randomness

inb4ivysaur

 

[Kinzer]

By placing a handicap on yourself is permanently avoiding a character's strength that he has gained through unaffected (standard in brawl rules) settings. The opposing player has no say whether you can place a handicap on yourself, and from there, everyone with matchup problems from characters with percent based chain-grabs will gain advantages from artifical buffs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern sounds like that there's no way to tell who is to say you can or can't put a handicap on yourself unless you're the TO and go out of your way to say something like "Handicap fixation is prohibited" or whatever.

In which I agree. I don't see much of a problem with allowing handicaps. Peoples' thing seems to be that "oh, this character's metagame is developed around specific percentages, this is a surgical nerf, blah blah blah!"

... Then how about you make it so that the character is actually better outside these specific scenarios?

I don't know, Meta Knight is still pretty good even if he can't Uair > Uair (times infinity) > Tornado. Just one example, but you know, that's just me. Yay for playing a moderately bad character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I ... don't do that. You just interpret it that way because you want to. You know nothing about my arguments whatsoever.

You remind me of those children who go "you dont know me at all!".
Well if that was true, you wouldn't be whining about it when your statements get ripped up right?

No, it's really not like that.

Let me help you

Sheik I think is neither good nor bad. I do think Zelda is a bit underrated

Theory.

 

[GimR]

Theory craft is when you post an idea with no evidence to back it up. Nothing is wrong with this as long as you are posting it so other people can test it or weigh in their thoughts on it. You should never use theory craft as the base of your argument.

 

[Espy Rose]

Can some characters reliably jump into Lucario's D-Air, SDI upward, and punish?

Sonic can, albeit not reliably.
He can also unreliably outrange it with his uair2.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You remind me of those children who go "you dont know me at all!".
Well if that was true, you wouldn't be whining about it when your statements get ripped up right?

Except you don't even know my statements. Drop it, you have no clue what you're even talking about now. Troll somebody else.

Let me help you

...

Theory.

It's a different argument now. Of course you knew that. Of course you had to bring it up still, despite it having nothing to do with anything I talked about earlier.

Troll. Somebody. Else.

 

[Spelt]

Theory craft is when you post an idea with no evidence to back it up. Nothing is wrong with this as long as you are posting it so other people can test it or weigh in their thoughts on it. You should never use theory craft as the base of your argument.

No, you have it backwards.
The base should be theory, and then you back it up with evidence/facts.

 

[Espy Rose]

Gheb, if you don't want to talk about it anymore (something you've made clear several times already), then why are you still in here?
Just stop posting. You'll save time, effort, and post space.

 

[Poltergust]

Sonic can, albeit not reliably.
He can also unreliably outrange it with his uair2.

Yoshi does the same thing, but uses his DJ heavy-armor to do it, so no need to SDI. It's still super-unreliable, though. I think they both also trade if they go head-to-head.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, if you don't want to talk about it anymore (something you've made clear several times already), then why are you still in here?
Just stop posting. You'll save time, effort, and post space.

It requires almost no time really, it takes effort no whatsoever and post space is abundant. Worthy trade for the amusement I get.

On topic I really think Zelda is a tad underrated. Her solid anti-aerial game is a decent tool against characters with weak ground approaches like Kirby or Jigglypuff. Not to say she beats Kirby [I don't actually know] but I can see the difficulties trying to break through her lightning kicks and her utilt ... I wouldn't risk a trade against that, especially at high %. Can't see her at 2nd to last.

 

[Lokinario]

. Can't see her at 2nd to last.

Who can you see at 2nd to last?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who can you see at 2nd to last?

Jigglypuff

I can see Bowser, Falcon and Samus below her too but I don't know these characters too well. Especially Bowser I can't make up my mind about.

 

[bigman40]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern sounds like that there's no way to tell who is to say you can or can't put a handicap on yourself unless you're the TO and go out of your way to say something like "Handicap fixation is prohibited" or whatever.

In which I agree. I don't see much of a problem with allowing handicaps. Peoples' thing seems to be that "oh, this character's metagame is developed around specific percentages, this is a surgical nerf, blah blah blah!"

... Then how about you make it so that the character is actually better outside these specific scenarios?

I don't know, Meta Knight is still pretty good even if he can't Uair > Uair (times infinity) > Tornado. Just one example, but you know, that's just me. Yay for playing a moderately bad character.

No. I mean that by allowing handicaps to be used, we are eliminating a section of a character's trait that has been gained from standard rules alone.

Typing on iphone sucks. If you want me to, i'll explain later.

 

[Fuujin]

lightning kicks....

...Kirby or Jigglypuff

Lol.
You don't know what youre talking about, do you?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, I do. May you read my post again CAREFULLY? Thanks a lot.

 

[John12346]

It requires almost no time really, it takes effort no whatsoever and post space is abundant. Worthy trade for the amusement I get.

This sounds like the aspirations of a troll.

As far as Zelda, she can't stop characters with aerial games. Airdodging ***** the **** out of Din's Fire camping, and Zelda has too much lag at the end of it to capitalize on anything. I personally think Zelda doesn't have much else to stuff an aerial approach, aside from her lightning kicks, which are ungodly hard to connect with, especially when the characters are approaching from 45 degree or higher angles from above.

Characters with grounded approaches also have it easy, thanks to Zelda's poor grab game. That alone makes it very easy to rush in with your shield and whoop some ***. Just stay out of grab range, wait for her to lag with some attack, and go to town, I guess.

She has good kill power, but all of them, with the notable exception of Usmash are stupidly hard to hit with. (Fair and Bair have an insane strict hitbox, Uair is too slow, Utilt has no range to speak of, Fsmash can be SDI'd...)

And it doesn't help that she can't approach...

 

[Poltergust]

What about her d-smash? Semi-spikes and comes out in 4 frames. I think it's her best kill move. >.>

EDIT: Actually, it's faster than her shield-grab when doing it OoS.

 

[Fuujin]

Yes, I do. May you read my post again CAREFULLY? Thanks a lot.

You're saying Kirby/Jiggs would have a hard time breaking through Zelda's sweetspotted Lightning kicks right?

 

[John12346]

Ah, you're right, I guess Dsmash has it's merits, but I tend to see a lot of Zeldas use that as their GTFO move, so it's usually decayed when it's time to kill, ya' know?

 

[Fuujin]

What about her d-smash? Semi-spikes and comes out in 4 frames. I think it's her best kill move. >.>

EDIT: Actually, it's faster than her shield-grab when doing it OoS.

Protip.
DI downward and Tech.

 

[Poltergust]

It's a bit hard to react to something that comes out in 4 frames, you know. And it's great for people off-stage/near the ledge. This is not Wolf's/Sonic's d-throw we're talking about here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're saying Kirby/Jiggs would have a hard time breaking through Zelda's sweetspotted Lightning kicks right?

I'm saying it's risky to approach via the air - especially at high % - and that there could be difficulties. One example would be a powershield fair / bair another could be an unlucky trade [yeah, theorycraft I know but it still happens when you need it the least].

I'm not saying that she can freely spam it against a Kirby-bair but once Kirby gets hit by a fair out of a powershield you will think twice before you commit to that action. It's a lot riskier to approach her than lots of other low tier characters for sure.

 

[Kinzer]

No. I mean that by allowing handicaps to be used, we are eliminating a section of a character's trait that has been gained from standard rules alone.

Typing on iphone sucks. If you want me to, i'll explain later.

I can wait.

 

[Fuujin]

I'm saying it's risky to approach via the air - especially at high % - and that there could be difficulties. One example would be a powershield fair / bair another could be an unlucky trade [yeah, theorycraft I know but it still happens when you need it the least].

I'm not saying that she can freely spam it against a Kirby-bair but once Kirby gets hit by a fair out of a powershield you will think twice before you commit to that action. It's a lot riskier to approach her than lots of other low tier characters for sure.

Well Kirby was a very very bad example to use LK out of Sheild on.
While LK out of a power shield can sometimes be legit, Kirby is one of the hardest characters to land the sweet spot on.
I'm pretty sure a spaced back air from Kirby cant be LKd even if you do power shield it.
And like most match ups, Zelda wants to stay on the ground.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I actually saw a Zelda player do it to a Kirby in a tournament friendly [he's actually a Sheik main though] so I don't see why it shouldn't work. Maybe it was a fair and bair doesn't work but I don't think it matters that much - point in case that at least fair works and it's dangerous.

Staying on the ground is one thing but missing out on a guaranteed killer would be ********. If you powershield it and can get a guaranteed aerial kill move you're going to leave the ground period.

 

[Fuujin]

I actually saw a Zelda player do it to a Kirby in a tournament friendly [he's actually a Sheik main though] so I don't see why it shouldn't work. Maybe it was a fair and bair doesn't work but I don't think it matters that much - point in case that at least fair works and it's dangerous.

Staying on the ground is one thing but missing out on a guaranteed killer would be ********. If you powershield it and can get a guaranteed aerial kill move you're going to leave the ground period.

And I've beaten Marths and MKs with her.
Zelda for Mid Tier.

 

[Spelt]

What about her d-smash? Semi-spikes and comes out in 4 frames. I think it's her best kill move. >.>

EDIT: Actually, it's faster than her shield-grab when doing it OoS.

Wait, how?

shield grab = 1 frame to cancel the shield + 7 frames for the grab to come out = 8 frames.
dsmash = 6 (or 7, i keep hearing different numbers from different people) frames to drop shield, 4 for the hitbox to come out = 10/11 frames.

I must be missing something.